Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness didn't apply to slaves, Indians, and women. Not sure inalienable right from the Creator did either. Yeah the founders were great moral leaders.
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Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness didn't apply to slaves, Indians, and women. Not sure inalienable right from the Creator did either. Yeah the founders were great moral leaders.
So if laws change to allow for rape, then rape becomes moral? When slavery was legal, was slavery moral? I'm just trying to determine what standard you use to determine what is or isn't moral. You say it's not public opinion, so is it law?Quote:
The laws I follow win. As far as I know, all laws say rape is bad.
You are appealing only to your opinion. I certainly agree with you, but many people do not. So for them, is rape NOT bad?Quote:
Because rape is bad.
Then what was your divorce example an appeal to?Quote:
Only in your fevered imagination was it plainly an appeal to public opinion.
No they weren't included in "all men" were they? they certainly weren't equal in those days which brings into question every thing they saidQuote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
What the founding fathers accomplished was an enormous step forward as opposed to being dominated by a king. And they established a Constitutional framework that enabled the rights they advocated for to be extended to all people. I would just say to all of you moralizers that when you have exhibited 1% of the courage and wisdom they did, or when you have accomplished 1% of what they did, then you will be more believable. They must be seen within the times they lived in.
Where in the world are you getting this from? Not from anything I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I do not think it was, but others did think it was moral. They base this on the law at the time (and the Bible!). That shoots down your opinion that morality reverts to public opinion when not from God.Quote:
When slavery was legal, was slavery moral?
It can be law and usually is. But as we have just seen re slavery, not always. And law itself has a source. Regardless of the source, morality (or law) does not spring full-blown from the mind of man. It takes time for something to be deemed moral or immoral.Quote:
I'm just trying to determine what standard you use to determine what is or isn't moral. You say it's not public opinion, so is it law?
The simplest way to express the source is a code of conduct that works and that originates in a shared culture. Is it the same for everybody? On the whole, yes. (There are always exceptions to everything.) It takes time to develop, like any other organizing principle of humanity.
You say this frequently, but what else can anyone appeal to if not his own mind and how he understands things?Quote:
You are appealing only to your opinion.
Who does NOT believe rape is bad? Please don't say a rapist.Quote:
I certainly agree with you, but many people do not.
The only ones who fall into this category are those of unsound mind - mentally unbalanced people.Quote:
So for them, is rape NOT bad?
It was not an appeal to anything. It was an example of how morality changes.Quote:
Then what was your divorce example an appeal to?
So morality is not universal. It only applies to the "shared culture" in which it originates?Quote:
The simplest way to express the source is a code of conduct that works and that originates in a shared culture. Is it the same for everybody? On the whole, yes. (There are always exceptions to everything.) It takes time to develop, like any other organizing principle of humanity.
There have been entire cultures who accepted that raping the women of conquered peoples was acceptable. Rome comes to mind. Rome would unhesitatingly kill, rape, and sell into slavery a conquered nation. They would have said YOU are the mentally unbalanced one for not agreeing with them. So I don't think your view of how moral values are established is particularly compelling.Quote:
Who does NOT believe rape is bad? Please don't say a rapist.
The only ones who fall into this category are those of unsound mind - mentally unbalanced people.
Based on changes in public opinions.Quote:
It was not an appeal to anything. It was an example of how morality changes.
When you learn better and do better that's called evolutionary progress. It's okay if you're still stuck in the past just please get the freak out of the way.
PS
Keep your crap in your own yard unless INVITED!
There's a rather large crowd of people in Minneapolis (peaceful protestors according to some on this site) who have a shared cultural belief that breaking into stores and stealing the contents is a perfectly moral thing to do. Does that make them right?
That large crowd (I heard it's around 1,000 people -- thinning out now) are peaceful protesters. The smashers and grabbers are opportunists, not protesters. No shared values.
How do you know that?Quote:
That large crowd (I heard it's around 1,000 people -- thinning out now) are peaceful protesters. The smashers and grabbers are opportunists, not protesters. No shared values.
Protests and rioting seems to go hand in hand with cop killings. Wonder why?
Because the protesters are totally pissed that the opportunists take away the impact of the protest and turn it into something vile.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
OK. First of all, that doesn't tell me how you know "That large crowd...are peaceful protesters. The smashers and grabbers are opportunists, not protesters. No shared values."Quote:
Because the protesters are totally pissed that the opportunists take away the impact of the protest and turn it into something vile.
But even at that, how do you know that, " the protesters are totally pissed that the opportunists take away the impact of the protest and turn it into something vile." I think we are back to broken chromosomes, which is to say simple speculation in an effort to support your narrative.
Since 1963, I've lived in a large metropolitan area that's very multicultural and multiracial. My Black (and white) friends are well educated, well spoken, and very familiar with what's going on in the world. That's how I know.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
You don't "know" any such thing. You are just making assumptions. But the ones (hundreds of them) looting and destroying certainly have a shared cultural belief, so I guess that, for them, it is a moral undertaking???Quote:
Since 1963, I've lived in a large metropolitan area that's very multicultural and multiracial. My Black (and white) friends are well educated, well spoken, and very familiar with what's going on in the world. That's how I know.
Looting, smashing, raising havoc, destroying property, injuring people...those are cultural (Black?) values?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
That's is a very reasonable assumption based on experience and interactions and no doubt the willingness to listen closely WG with no bias(?), or judgement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Unlike others! That's always been the problem in America, judgement without listening and NO empathy whatsoever, so it's no wonder the protests and complaints getter louder and more dramatic.
That's the biggest, most loving gift my wonderful dad blessed me with. From early childhood on, I was taught, mostly by his example, to be kind, caring, a good listener, both sympathetic AND empathetic. The libraries I worked at for 30 years had patrons of every culture, race, ethnic group, and they each added wonderful dimensions to my life.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
All of which is wonderful, but none of which gives you even a clue as to the crowd tearing up the town in Minneapolis. Pretty sure you'd have to actually go up there and observe/interact to know what you claimed to know.Quote:
That's the biggest, most loving gift my wonderful dad blessed me with. From early childhood on, I was taught, mostly by his example, to be kind, caring, a good listener, both sympathetic AND empathetic. The libraries I worked at for 30 years had patrons of every culture, race, ethnic group, and they each added wonderful dimensions to my life.
The same could be said of you and maybe you could separate the peaceful message from the more volatile ones and the troublemakers from down right criminals. Maybe then you could listen to reason and understand the cause and effects circumstances of events better. Just saying!Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
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