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Originally Posted by
jlisenbe
You are getting confused. Saying unbelievers go to hell is not the same thing as saying that is WHY they go to hell. They do not go because of unbelief. They go because of breaking the laws of God. If you would take the time to read carefully, you would see that I stated that very thing above.
I'm not a bit confused. For months you have been supporting "unbelievers go to hell for eternal punishment". Then in your last post, you walked it back a bit by the sophistry of introducing "WHY' into the equation. Then you changed it all by now saying "They go because of breaking the laws of God". You charge me with not being to read carefully. Yet you NEVER said that before. Your ethics, or lack thereof, get worse and worse.
To the new charge: read my lips, unbelief is NOT breaking the laws of God. Is God just waiting up there to swoop that old Chinese lady working the rice paddy to die so he can immediately cast her into the fires of your hell? Good grief, man, use your head. God gave you a brain for discernment. Start discerning.
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People perish because they have broken God's laws and are guilty before Him.
No they don't. People perish because of sickness, old age, accident and a myriad other ways. Didn't we already do this?
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Perhaps you thought I meant "perish" as in "die"?
Yes, that is the accepted, normal, common meaning of the word in English. If it means eternal punishment in hell, I'm sure the proper words would have been used.
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I blundered across this in 2 Thessalonians this morning. "when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with [f]His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified [g]in His [h]saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed."
Wow, this threat is a beauty. "Eternal destruction" - you sure get riled up when you get tied up in discussion. What would you guys do without threats? Probably gain a few more converts. But it's not really about converts, is it?
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gospel according to Matthew but there's no evidence he actually wrote it." That statement is not even close to being accurate.
It's perfectly accurate. Check with your Bible scholar pals.
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As to the date of Matthew, the third century only applies if you are looking for complete manuscripts. Papayrus P104 is a small fragment of Matthew dated to the second century.
That's precisely, almost word for word, what I said!
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And if you are going to apply your standard of reliability to all of ancient writings
No, just to Matthew.
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then you can't depend on any of it. The textual evidence for the NT is fantastically greater than that of other ancient texts. Nothing else even comes close. The textual evidence for the accurate copying of the NT is also tremendous.
I've heard this argument before. It's irrelevant - other ancient writings have nothing to do with the NT - and it usually emerges as a last attempt to salvage an argument re Biblical accuracy.
My disagreement is with JL's erstwhile belief that unbelievers go to hell for eternal punishment. If he wishes to change "unbelievers" to breakers of God's law, I think he has a perfect right to do that and I would not dispute his belief.
