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I don't get it. If Jesus is the way to eternal life, then how do you justify not helping the least of us? Is there a pick who you help option on that or what? I would really like to know.

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I don't justify it. I believe that I should help the poor with my money and I do so, so I don't get your meaning. Now do I believe that I should be able to force someone else to help them with his/her money? No.

I hope WG will answer my questions.

Personal relationships with God are just that: personal. There really is no need to argue about faith. As with most everything in nature, someone is right and someone is wrong, there normally is no "between"....trying to walk the knife's edge of "between" is a cowardly negotiation.....as long as you are secure in what you believe, then you should go with it and not consider what those around you think: IT'S YOUR SOUL WE ARE TALKING ABOUT and there can be nothing more important.....and, so, why argue about it? The main reason arguments about religion arise is that those who are pro or con in a belief system begin to lose confidence and the whisper of doubt begins to creep into their minds. A confident person feels no need to voice anything because what you believe is inside of you, right now. This personal relationship is entirely yours...no crowd of people should push you toward something of which you aren't certain.

Its a scary thing to go through life with strong beliefs, one way or the other, and have something come along and shakeup that belief system and make you confront your beliefs: looking in the mirror at 4 AM and its just you fighting with yourself, that is one terrible battle because its your conscious and there is no escape, and you know right from wrong. Its never happened to me but losing faith has to be cataclysmic....I have seen it happen to others where their world turns upside down and it usually results in a reevaluation of one's life or behaviors in light of this: in effect, it can be life changing. And this is often about the subject of religion....but not always.....it could be about your "faith" in your mate, until you find your mate to be "unfaithful".....or it could be about your adopted political stripe, until you realize you disagree with the positions or decisions that your group takes.

All of this discussion about the Bible and beliefs make me think of a song, sung by the group "Blood, Sweat, and Tears" called "And When I Die".....in that song, a line always struck me as being so pointed, so abruptly sharp, and so true when it says "I Can Swear There Ain't No Heaven And I PRAY There Ain't No Hell"......this line always reminds me that you have to very sure of the choices you make in this life....because when you leave, there is no coming back to correct the mistakes you committed while living....you own those mistakes.

Believing in Natural Laws and The Laws of Nature has served me well but nothing takes the place of my personal relationship with God.

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A confident person feels no need to voice anything because what you believe is inside of you, right now.

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I think the Apostle Paul would not agree with that statement. Still, I think I understand your point, but it should be added that our beliefs need to line up with the truth.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I think the Apostle Paul would not agree with that statement. Still, I think I understand your point, but it should be added that our beliefs need to line up with the truth.

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As Pilate asked, "What is truth?"

jlisenbe: There is only ONE truth.....you know it, I know it, and God knows it. God said it, that's that....and it doesn't matter if you believe it or not.

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As Pilate asked, "What is truth?"

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Jesus said He was the Truth.

Would you answer one question. What do you tell someone who comes to you and wants to be right with God. What would your counsel be?

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jlisenbe: There is only ONE truth.....you know it, I know it, and God knows it. God said it, that's that....and it doesn't matter if you believe it or not.

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True. Our belief, or lack of belief, does not effect what is true.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Would you answer one question. What do you tell someone who comes to you and wants to be right with God. What would your counsel be?

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Throughout my long life as a Christian, no one has ever asked me that. That's not the right question.

OK. Suppose they say to you that they are not a Christian but want to become one. They want to have their sins forgiven and have a home in heaven. They ask you how they can do that. What do you say?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

OK. Suppose they say to you that they are not a Christian but want to become one. They want to have their sins forgiven and have a home in heaven. They ask you how they can do that. What do you say?

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That's not what they ask.

It's basically what the Phillipian jailer asked. "What must I do to be saved?" What would you have told him? Please don't dodge the question.

Are you serious that no one ever comes into your church and asks how to become a Christian???

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Originally Posted by talaniman

I don't get it. If Jesus is the way to eternal life, then how do you justify not helping the least of us? Is there a pick who you help option on that or what? I would really like to know.

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You would like to know? is that because you seek salvation? or is it just you seek to argue? I echo the many statements made here, we are all in need of salvation and it is found only in Jesus. Christians are the only ones who offer salvation, not by works, but by faith, and all it takes is to acknowledge Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, so if you have not faith, ask Jesus for it, and I would pray for you reveal Jesus to him Lord

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I echo the many statements made here, we are all in need of salvation and it is found only in Jesus. Christians are the only ones who offer salvation, not by works, but by faith, and all it takes is to acknowledge Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, so if you have not faith, ask Jesus for it, and I would pray for you reveal Jesus to him Lord

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Well said.

Paraclete: VERY well said! Captures it all "not by deeds but by faith"....nails it!

My question wasn't answered, and I am not looking for conversion, or salvation, just understanding to restore faith, and TRUST in my fellow man flawed as we all are. Thus my question of can you pick and choose who of the least you must help? Or for that matter what is Caesars? Obviously some have their own guidance on the matter and I suppose they are good with it, as the obligation to help anyone is a huge obligation, and there is a great need. Not to argue, but discuss that in the practical terms of ones obligations, since I have a hard time wrapping my head around some of the stuff that's preached, and our very human interpretation that produces action. The least of us is a very profound call to action, and it would seem that actions that go against that would be the definition of sin, and against what we observed to be taught in many teachings.

Would not putting our earthly opinions before those teaching also contradict the tenants of those teachings? While I get having strong opinions, even a strong faith, but is religion really worth arguing about as Vac7 so aptly expressed.

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Believing in Natural Laws and The Laws of Nature has served me well but nothing takes the place of my personal relationship with God.

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That hits me as profound and that is the way to truth and understanding beyond the dogma, culture, and tradition of any and all religion. So no, not to argue with any about faith, salvation, or any of that stuff, Clete, but returning to the topic of the forum, which has once again been hijacked by Christian conflict over scripture interpretation, which is NOTHING without that aforementioned personal relationship with a God that YOU understand.

Of course the flaw in any human undertaking is in just being human, and whatever action we take, no matter the actions of a Caesar. I guess the point is, I choose not to follow a Caesar, nor fret about what he takes. I don't knw where my soul is going when the body ceases function, but you can choose your own heaven or hell NOW!

I also choose not to follow a lying, cheating, dufus bully whose words, actions, and antics go against everything a good human would do in my humble opinion.

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My question wasn't answered, and I am not looking for conversion, or salvation, just understanding to restore faith, and TRUST in my fellow man flawed as we all are. Thus my question of can you pick and choose who of the least you must help? Or for that matter what is Caesars? Obviously some have their own guidance on the matter and I suppose they are good with it, as the obligation to help anyone is a huge obligation, and there is a great need. Not to argue, but discuss that in the practical terms of ones obligations, since I have a hard time wrapping my head around some of the stuff that's preached, and our very human interpretation that produces action. The least of us is a very profound call to action, and it would seem that actions that go against that would be the definition of sin, and against what we observed to be taught in many teachings.

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The Matthew 25 passage you are referring to is a passage about personal responsibility. So you, Tal, and I will be judged, not for what we tried to politically force others to do, but for what we did ourselves. I'm not sure what else you are referring to. You mention that "actions that go against that would be the definition of sin." OK, that would be true, but I just don't know what actions you are referring to. Are these actions of yours, or of others, or both?

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That hits me as profound and that is the way to truth and understanding beyond the dogma, culture, and tradition of any and all religion.

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But when you say that, you are acknowledging that there is such a thing as "truth". That means that we all cannot have our own, personal truth anymore than we can have many correct answers to a basic math problem. You cannot evaluate truth claims just on the basis of how you feel about it or how reasonable it might seem to you. So if you genuinely arrive at the truth, and if I genuinely arrive at the truth, then we will find that we are in agreement with each other. There cannot be multiple truths. Even more importantly, those religious dogmas you referred to are all attempts to state what they consider the truth to be. For Christians, truth must line up with the clear teaching of scripture.

Talaniman: A very evil man said something very true: "If there is a man, there is a problem."...that describes the base issue, as you alluded to: Humans twist, turn, and foul-up just about everything they touch or, even, express an interpretation of material once that material is read.

MAN IS A MESS!

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

The Matthew 25 passage you are referring to is a passage about personal responsibility. So you, Tal, and I will be judged, not for what we tried to politically force others to do, but for what we did ourselves. I'm not sure what else you are referring to. You mention that "actions that go against that would be the definition of sin." OK, that would be true, but I just don't know what actions you are referring to. Are these actions of yours, or of others, or both?

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The words, actions, and antics the dufus does in OUR name which has been contrary to the teachings of Christians in a so called Christian nation that even run contrary to laws, specifically those steeped in cruelty to the least of us, stirred by fear and hate. Not only does it make a mockery of the god decent thing to do for the least of us, it crosses the lines of good orderly direction of which I cannot abide and just wonder how any good so called Christian could.

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But when you say that, you are acknowledging that there is such a thing as "truth". That means that we all cannot have our own, personal truth anymore than we can have many correct answers to a basic math problem. You cannot evaluate truth claims just on the basis of how you feel about it or how reasonable it might seem to you. So if you genuinely arrive at the truth, and if I genuinely arrive at the truth, then we will find that we are in agreement with each other. There cannot be multiple truths. Even more importantly, those religious dogmas you referred to are all attempts to state what they consider the truth to be. For Christians, truth must line up with the clear teaching of scripture.

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Doesn't that bring us back to the simple truth of what your scripture says about how to treat the least of us? Guide me please to show me the exception that allow for cruelty and condemnation from any of us to the least of us. Your scriptures seem to be quite clear on this and calls for just the opposite in what we are doing, and doesn't that count for something?

If one can turn their back on their own scripture, then why would one be credible in the truth whatever it may really be, or even others to follow in that example?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

It's basically what the Phillipian jailer asked. "What must I do to be saved?" What would you have told him? Please don't dodge the question.

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Bible story. Second-hand report. Teaching moment, the writer decided.

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Are you serious that no one ever comes into your church and asks how to become a Christian???

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Nope. That's not the question.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

The Matthew 25 passage you are referring to is a passage about personal responsibility. So you, Tal, and I will be judged, not for what we tried to politically force others to do, but for what we did ourselves. I'm not sure what else you are referring to. You mention that "actions that go against that would be the definition of sin." OK, that would be true, but I just don't know what actions you are referring to. Are these actions of yours, or of others, or both?



But when you say that, you are acknowledging that there is such a thing as "truth". That means that we all cannot have our own, personal truth anymore than we can have many correct answers to a basic math problem. You cannot evaluate truth claims just on the basis of how you feel about it or how reasonable it might seem to you. So if you genuinely arrive at the truth, and if I genuinely arrive at the truth, then we will find that we are in agreement with each other. There cannot be multiple truths. Even more importantly, those religious dogmas you referred to are all attempts to state what they consider the truth to be. For Christians, truth must line up with the clear teaching of scripture.

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Keep in mind everything that this guy says comes from someone who believes that a harmless old lady who doesn't believe in his brand of Christianity is destined to eternal torture in hell. I didn't make that up, he did.

So, take everything he says with a ton of salt.

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Doesn't that bring us back to the simple truth of what your scripture says about how to treat the least of us? Guide me please to show me the exception that allow for cruelty and condemnation from any of us to the least of us. Your scriptures seem to be quite clear on this and calls for just the opposite in what we are doing, and doesn't that count for something?

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I have never suggested we should be cruel to anyone. As is sometimes the case, I have no idea what you are talking about.