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Thank you slaves for building the best nation on Earth for FREE, with labor, blood, sweat, and great sacrifice through cruelty, and all kinds of atrocities.

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The north beat the south largely because of the North's vastly superior industrial base that was built by free men. And certainly everything since 1865 has been built through private enterprise with no slavery. You are taking a legitimate point and exaggerating it to the point of silliness.

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You aren't worried about that debt, so why the hell should my grandkids worry about paying a debt they didn't make?

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Yeah. Right. The only person on this board to bring it up over the past months is not worried about it. Sure. That makes a lot of sense. What makes you think I'm not worried about it anyway?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

The north beat the south largely because of the North's vastly superior industrial base that was built by free men.

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And where did those free (white) men in the North get the raw materials -- especially the cotton, tobacco, and sugar cane -- to build that industrial base?

You don't build industry with cotton, tobacco, and sugar cane. Most of the South's cotton was sent to textile mills in Britain.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

You don't build industry with cotton, tobacco, and sugar cane. Most of the South's cotton was sent to textile mills in Britain.

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Nope. It did go there too but New England especially benefited from the plantation cotton for their textile mills. I learned that in 4th grade!

Fair enough, but to say that the industrial north was built by the labor of slaves is simply not correct. Not even close. Free men, coal and iron built the industrial north. That's not to discount what slaves produced. It was considerable, but to say that our country was built by slave labor is way over the top.

The industrial north was built on generations of cheap labor, blood, sweat, and sacrifice, under some very grueling conditions. Where do you thing immigrants and runaway slave and later freed slaves went to? You should read up about the history of industrialization before unions. You should also brush up on what happens to towns built around those industries that no longer exists.

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The industrial north was built on generations of cheap labor, blood, sweat, and sacrifice, under some very grueling conditions.

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That is partially true, but it is not what you said in your original statement about slavery. You are, at least, becoming more reasonable.

What was unreasonable about my previous point?

What was unreasonable? This. "Thank you slaves for building the best nation on Earth for FREE."

It way overstates the case. Slave labor contributed, but did not do all, or even most, of the building.

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And without (impatient) consumers wearing masks or doing any social distancing, COVID-19 has come surging back!

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what is being called a surge is pockets of increased cases ;and most of the surge is because testing has increased including when people go back to work ,their employers are insisting that they ae negative before coming back to work . These people were already infected before the restrictions were lifted . As in the beginning ;the only issue is preventing the overwhelming of the hospitals . We know so much more now than we did in March. WE know wearing masks ,sanitizing ,washing hands and social distancing helps prevent the spread . We know it is rarely fatal for people younger than 60 and in many younger people ;they don't even show symptoms when infected .

I know Trump opponents want the economy to continue to tank so they are rooting for a new spike . Sandinista Bill did NOTHING about the riots and demonstrations . In fact he encouraged them and blamed cops for excesses . But now he is restraining from opening up NYC because he wants to know if the demonstrations caused an increase in c-19 cases . He is a disingenuous POS . They were ready to arrest a handful of business owners who demonstrated to allow their establishments to open . il Duce Cuomo lectured us for weeks and threatened to shut down the state again . Then they allowed this to go on in Brooklyn .
https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/6W...2fb_o_U_v2.jpg

So I'm guessing that is not a pic of a Trump rally?

The alarming part is the spikes that lead to hospitalizations and while your city seems to have gone through the worst Tom, other cities are just getting started so I don't think we have fully weathered the first wave as yet. I don't pretend to know how this will affect businesses though since we really haven't solved anything yet or how small businesses can keep replacing sick workers and customers who don't want to be sick of all ages, or open up to shutdown again.

We seem to have 50 different ways of dealing with how to reopen safely, and stay open enough to bank some profits. Did you see those long lines of people in Kentucky waiting for unemployment checks from last month or beyond?

https://news.yahoo.com/hundreds-line...115701994.html

that's because the Federal Government hastily voted unemployment benefits with no thought beyond it felt good to do something . I know people here who have still not received their 1st check ,and others who could go back to work today but are choosing to stay out until their benefits are exhausted . What state has their hospitals overwhelmed ? NY came close but even here most of the resources were adequate except for pockets in Brooklyn ,Queens etc . I cant say it was over hyped because we did not know any better . But now we have a better handle on it . I recommend to everyone to follow the guidelines . It is not a fun illness for geezers like me to deal with . But for perspective ,1968 over 100,000 Americans died in the pandemic and no one knew we were in one .

Just can't imagine a blue collar low paid worker risking his life and health to help your precious economy can you, Tom? We have learned a lot the last few months, but there is much more to learn.

I think its a cop out and false to say those folks told to not work in the first place, rather get free money because they haven't gotten it yet. Maybe the business cycle can operate that way but humans cannot. Hope you have learned that while you expect everybody to ignore those risks, and do as the boss tells them when he tells them.

The functions and structures of government and society are broken folks, and as long as we ignore that there will be no return to normal. LOL, presumptuous of you to think we ignore the virus and try.

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Just can't imagine a blue collar low paid worker risking his life and health to help your precious economy can you, Tom?

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I work in a plant full of them that show up every day . I respect them more than the P*SSY office workers who are tele-working from their beach homes .(the asterisk is because the system tried to censor my comment )

Pretty obvious the blue collar workers have suffered greatly from the virus and stalled economy as usual like every other business downturn they have no control over. They can't afford to be sick.

This is what Hydroxychloroquine does to you, the man is befuddled

Check your link Clete.

Yes it is a circular argument

the known sie effects are;

• Blistering, peeling, loosening of the skin
• blurred vision or other vision changes
• chest discomfort, pain, or tightness
• cough or hoarseness
• dark urine
• decreased urination
• defective color vision
• diarrhea
• difficulty breathing
• difficulty seeing at night
• dizziness or fainting
• fast, pounding, uneven heartbeat
• feeling that others are watching you or controlling your behavior
• feeling that others can hear your thoughts
• feeling, seeing, or hearing things that are not there
• fever with or without chills
• general feeling of tiredness or weakness
• headache
• inability to move the eyes
• increased blinking or spasms of the eyelid
• joint or muscle pain
• large, hive-like swelling on the face, eyelids, lips, tongue, throat, hands, legs, feet, and sex organs
• loss of hearing
• lower back or side pain
• noisy breathing
• painful or difficult urination
• red irritated eyes
• red skin lesions, often with a purple center
• severe mood or mental changes
• sore throat sores, ulcers, or white spots on the lips or in the mouth
• sticking out of the tongue
• stomach pain
• swelling of the feet or lower legs
• swollen or painful glands
• trouble with breathing, speaking, or swallowing
• uncontrolled twisting movements of the neck, trunk, arms, or legs
• unusual behavior
• unusual bleeding or bruising
• unusual facial expressions
• unusual tiredness or weakness
• yellow eyes or skin

We've already pulled this drug as a viable emergency treatment Clete and have replaced it with a long used steroid with better promise so the speculation is over as far as I'm concerned.

short sited . This is what I mean by making a treatment political . NIH and Novartis discontinues clinical trials not because they discovered anything wrong . They discontinue it because the anti-Trump luddites did so much bad unproven press about the drug that they were having trouble finding volunteers for the study as a result .

Clete ; the drug has been used for decades for a number of different treatments . Do you really think if the side effects you posted were an issue that the drug would still be on the market ? The fact is that almost all those side effects are manifest over long term care for things like rheumatoid arthritis and other chronic diseases it is used for . The treatment for C-19 is not a long term treatment . Either it helps in combination with other drugs and supplements or it doesn't . There is no way the long term side effects manifest themselves in c-19 treatment .

You're beating a dead horse Dr. Tom, because the dufus FDA said otherwise. It was more a risk of disrupting the availability for those that need it and proven effective against those issues than as a corona treatment. They have already found a more reliable drug so who needs an unreliable one? That makes no sense.

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They have already found a more reliable drug so who needs an unreliable one?

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says who ? There have been no clinical trials released confirming the Brit claim . You see what I mean ? You apply a completely different standard when there is a possibility of discrediting Trump . It was you who said there were no studies to back up the claims of hydroxychloroquine's effectiveness and yet you are ready to proclaim

dexamethasone the wonder drug answer. Well hold on there . According to the reports if they are true ,the steroid is somewhat effective for patients being ventilated or on oxygen . The treatment according to the report reduced deaths by 1/3 for patients on ventilators and by 20% for those on oxygen . Well at best that is a welcome reduction . But it is hardly the problem solved you make it out to be. For me it is all hands on deck . But the politics have made it almost impossible to do a fair test on hydroxychloroquine .
Lets make it clear ;it was the NIH that directed the FDA on this matter Novartis statement says

Novartis has terminated its sponsored hydroxychloroquine clinical trial for COVID-19 due to acute enrollment challenges that have made trial completion “infeasible”.The drug giant said that slow trial recruitment has made it unlikely that the clinical team will be able to collect meaningful data in a reasonable time frame
to determine the effectiveness of the drug in treating patients with the virus.
It was also stressed that no safety issues have been reported,

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You apply a completely different standard when there is a possibility of discrediting Trump .

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Gosh. Seems like someone else here has said that.

Standard is the same Tom, and the fact they have a better emergency treatment for a few people is hopeful rather than infeasible. I don't think I even mentioned the dufus in my last post, except to refer to his FDA that has made the aforementioned decisions.

I certainly could have and no doubt will in the future, but you and JL already know that.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Clete ; the drug has been used for decades for a number of different treatments . Do you really think if the side effects you posted were an issue that the drug would still be on the market ? The fact is that almost all those side effects are manifest over long term care for things like rheumatoid arthritis and other chronic diseases it is used for . The treatment for C-19 is not a long term treatment . Either it helps in combination with other drugs and supplements or it doesn't . There is no way the long term side effects manifest themselves in c-19 treatment .

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I was alluding to some of the more interesting side effects
paranoia, yellow skin, mental issues

All drugs have side effects and can be dangerous so should be taken and administered by a professional. Side effects Tom can be and have been managed effectively in most cases but why you insist on this particular drug pushed and supposedly used by the dufus, as a viable option after the FDA has pulled the plug is beyond me.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

I was alluding to some of the more interesting side effects
paranoia, yellow skin, mental issues

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The dufus may be using ORANGE spray paint to hide yellow skin? He was already showing signs of paranoia and mental issues before he announced the dope he was taking.

yes so the effects are multiplied

Guess it doesn't mix well with diet coke.

update ...............

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/02/healt...n0SQBqdwqK5X-o

Talaniman Rule- Be wary, be VERY wary of anything the dufus or his people tell you. Even the dufus medical experts regularly refute everything the dufus says.

and this from the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons .... I am pretty sure I posted this before . It is worth posting again :

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While people’s lives and jobs are being devastated by the coronavirus pandemic (COVID-19), and there has been no FDA-approved treatment, governors or state pharmacy boards in Nevada, Michigan, New York, Ohio, and Texas are issuing emergency orders to restrict which medications doctors can use to save lives.
These politicians have no background in infectious disease, medicine, research design, or epidemiology, yet they presume to dictate to front-line physicians who are reading the emerging research and caring for patients.

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https://aapsonline.org/why-are-some-...irus-pandemic/

I'm pretty sure frontline physicians can get desperate, but hospital policy probably limits what they can safely do, or what is available for them to even use, and even if they did use unapproved stuff, seems patients would have to relieve the hospital of any liabilities so it can get complicated. Personally until the evidence of SOLID trials comes through, this is a no brainer and that's what I wrote above.

The dufus is a bonafide snake oil salesman Tom, and that hurts whatever he is hawking with half a$$ed evidence. As well it should.

12 consecutive studies have shown hydroxychloroquine to be effective in fighting COVID-19. Now a Yale epidemiologist says it is ‘the key to defeating’ the virus.

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When this inexpensive oral medication is given very early in the course of illness, before the virus has had time to multiply beyond control, it has shown to be highly effective, especially when given in combination with the antibiotics azithromycin or doxycycline and the nutritional supplement zinc.
On May 27, I published an article in the American Journal of Epidemiology (AJE) entitled, "Early Outpatient Treatment of Symptomatic, High-Risk COVID-19 Patients that Should be Ramped-Up Immediately as Key to the Pandemic Crisis." That article, published in the world's leading epidemiology journal, analyzed five studies, demonstrating clear-cut and significant benefits to treated patients, plus other very large studies that showed the medication safety........

Since publication of my May 27 article, seven more studies have demonstrated similar benefit. In a lengthy follow-up letter, also published by AJE, I discuss these seven studies and renew my call for the immediate early use of hydroxychloroquine in high-risk patients. These seven studies include: an additional 400 high-risk patients treated by Dr. Vladimir Zelenko, with zero deaths; four studies totaling almost 500 high-risk patients treated in nursing homes and clinics across the U.S., with no deaths; a controlled trial of more than 700 high-risk patients in Brazil, with significantly reduced risk of hospitalization and two deaths among 334 patients treated with hydroxychloroquine; and another study of 398 matched patients in France, also with significantly reduced hospitalization risk. Since my letter was published, even more doctors have reported to me their completely successful use.

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https://www.newsweek.com/key-defeati...pinion-1519535

https://academic.oup.com/aje/article...waa093/5847586

Yes well Trump told us it is effective so we should believe him

that statement illustrates the problem . The epidemiologist researched 12 recent tests that gave good results for C-19 patients if the cocktail is administered early . But it still becomes an issue that Trump promoted it . Imagine you doctor saying "the good news is that hydroxychloroquine could save your life from covid -19 . The bad news is that you will prove Trump was right . "

yes that is certainly bad news

I know politics and science don't mix, but I know the money dictates everything, and no doubt who has the money.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

that statement illustrates the problem . The epidemiologist researched 12 recent tests that gave good results for C-19 patients if the cocktail is administered early . But it still becomes an issue that Trump promoted it . Imagine you doctor saying "the good news is that hydroxychloroquine could save your life from covid -19 . The bad news is that you will prove Trump was right . "

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If this is true, why is it not accepted by the scientific community? The WHO has declared the INEFFECTIVENESS of the drug. Maybe that's why Trump stopped funding of the organization.

There is no strong scientific evidence to support the use of hydroxychloroquine for preventing or treating coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID‑19). While its use is not approved by the FDA for COVID‑19 treatment, from April to June 2020, there was an emergency use authorization for its use in the United States,^[50] and it has been used off label for potential treatment of the disease. On 24 April 2020, citing the risk of "serious heart rhythm problems", the FDA posted a caution against using the drug for COVID‑19 "outside of the hospital setting or a clinical trial". On 15 June, the FDA revoked its emergency use authorization, stating that it was "no longer reasonable to believe" that the drug was effective against COVID-19 or that its benefits outweighed "known and potential risks".

A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study of hydroxychloroquine in 821 participants found that it did not treat COVID‑19 infection, although the study had limitations. In June, use of hydroxychloroquine in the UK RECOVERY Trial was discontinued when an interim analysis of 1,542 treatments showed it provided no mortality benefit to people with severe COVID-19 infection hospitalized over 28 days.

The Henry Ford study recommending the drug has been questioned by epidemiologists.

The bottom line is that the drug is still controversial. Trump's take on the treatment has nothing to do with its effectiveness, but he should not be suggesting it without scientific proof. Remember Trump also suggested injecting disinfectant directly into the bloodstream.

this is a bad case of we didn't think of it, however, it was only suggested as a preventative, not as a cure all. it is possible that in certain cases, such as an otherwise healthy person, it may be effective, however cv19 is a particular problem in those with health issues