Quote:

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Synn:

If the phone companies lobbied congress, so as to manipulate the market to their advantage, in the same way that HEALTH INSURANCE companies do, you're right... But, they don't. In fact, the free market competition in THAT industry provides us with CHEAP disposable cell phones with an HOUR of prepaid minutes for only $30. EVERYBODY can afford to call their momma...

Plus, you are RIGHT even further, Synn, in the sense that there ARE certain commons which SHOULD be held by ALL of us, and be FREE for ALL of us to use.... Kinda like fire protection and crime protection... You don't get a bill when your house is on fire, and you shouldn't get a bill when you get sick.

excon

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So who is going to work for free? 100 % of the time? Wow, you really want to cause rationing and wait lines - make people work for free - yeah that is the answer. Heck, why is everything not for free? Why don't we have universal gas ,electric, phone, cable, grocery, clothing for "free?" The only way people will work for fre is if the government FORCES THEM to do so. Is this what you are advocating?


G&P

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Originally Posted by inthebox

Is this what you are advocating?

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Hello in:

No. Firemen are paid. VA doctors are paid. I don't understand the point you're making.

excon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again,

So, can we agree that the opposition to Obamacare, is REALLY opposition to Obama in general?

It would HELP if we could distinguish what your arguments are REALLY in opposition to... Elliot has finally come out. He thinks it's all a plot. Steve just jumped on board. Tom has ALWAYS been there... In fact, ALL of you have always been there...

So, tell me this... IF Obama didn't take over GM, would his health care plan be cool with you???? Since you've muddeled it all up into one indistinguishable ball, and probably don't even know yourself, I'm just gonna declare that you would.

excon

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Opposition to Obamacare is because it is a BAD PROPOSITION that will make things worse:

1] No tort reform

Philip K. Howard: Why Medical Malpractice Reform Is Off Limits - WSJ.com

2] increases deficit by trillion per CBO

3] Modeled after national healthcare ala Canada or Britain. Canada allowes private care in 2005, why retrace their steps. Britain's NICE is a defacto rationing board.

4] It does not and cannot mandate HEALTHY behavior - such as losing weight, quitting , smoking, eating more vegetables, exercising more - that is an individuals choice and decision.

5] The current VA - government health system - is okay but a far cry from ideal. Why aim lower?

6] Does not address the shortage in primary care, in fact it will make it worse.


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There are hard choices to make: you cannot simply say that healthcare will be free - only the most gullible would believe that.

Healthcare will only be more acessable and affordable when competition is allowed and third party payors [ gov and or insurance companies ] role is reduced and the role of the individual is increased.



G&P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello in:

No. Firemen are paid. VA doctors are paid. I don't understand the point you're making.

excon

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Yes they are paid, by TAXDOLLARS. An increase of a trillion in healthcare expenditures means an increase in a trillion in TAXES. Medicare part D has cost the taxpayors hundreds of millions in TAXES and you still have the "donut hole". $4 per rx per month at Walmart or your local pharmacy cost the taxpayor zilch. Who is most effiecient with your money, you or the government?


G&P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by inthebox

There are hard choices to make: you cannot simply say that healthcare will be free - only the most gullible would believe that.

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Hello again, in:

I guess this stems from my comment that you don't get a bill for calling 911.. Well, you don't. But, that doesn't mean I think it's free. Come on. Get serious.

excon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again,

So, can we agree that the opposition to Obamacare, is REALLY opposition to Obama in general?

It would HELP if we could distinguish what your arguments are REALLY in opposition to... Elliot has finally come out. He thinks it's all a plot. Steve just jumped on board. Tom has ALWAYS been there... In fact, ALL of you have always been there...

---

What do you mean I 'finally came out'. This isn't a new position for me. Where have you been?

In fact, OBAMA has made it clear that that is his position. He made this stuff very clear. He has stated that his GOAL is wealth redistribution, not improvement of the economic system... said it during the campaign and was proud of that position. In terms of health care, as far back as 2006, he was saying that his goal is a single-payer, government-controlled system, but that it would take time to get there. Obama has never made any qualms or tried to hide what his goals are. He has stated them very clearly.

Quote:

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So, tell me this... IF Obama didn't take over GM, would his health care plan be cool with you?? Since you've muddeled it all up into one indistinguishable ball, and probably don't even know yourself, I'm just going to declare that you would.

Excon

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Ummmm... nope. Because it would STILL be a bad idea. A bad idea doesn't become a good idea just because Obama didn't do something ELSE that was a bad idea.

I was against Hillarycare too... and nobody was taking over private companies back then. It was just a bad idea that hasn't improved with time.

But what this "muddled ball" shows us is that his attempt to control the economy isn't relegated to a single issue... it's an across-the-board takeover plan. Energy, finance, medical/health, industry, travel, education... all of these are areas where Obama has his fingers in the pie. And he wants more.

I didn't muddle these areas together. Obama did that all by his lonesome, by making those the areas that he decided to take over the economy. The issue isn't with me making this connection... it's with you being UNABLE to do so.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Obama did that all by his lonesome, by making those the areas that he decided to take over the economy.

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Hello again, El:

You've been reading that right wing propaganda again... Some people would rather believe the emails they get from Glenn Beck, rather than their lying eyes... Poor righty's.

excon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, El:

You've been reading that right wing propaganda again... Some people would rather believe the emails they get from Glenn Beck, rather than their lying eyes... Poor righty's.

excon

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Are you arguing that Obama DIDN'T say that his goal was redistribution of wealth? Or are you arguing that Obama didn't say that his goal was a single-payer health care system?

Because both can be proven, they are both well documented. They were Obama's words, not Glenn Beck's.

This ain't coming from Glenn Beck, excon, much as you would wish it were that easy to dismiss. This is from Obama himself.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Are you arguing that Obama DIDN'T say that his goal was redistribution of wealth?

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Hello again, Elliot:

Yes. SHOW ME THE QUOTE.

excon

Excon,

Are you really going to make me find one of the most famous Obama quotes? The one he made to Joe the Plumber?

OK, if you insist.

"It's not that I want to punish your success. I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you, that they've got a chance at success, too… My attitude is that if the economy's good for folks from the bottom up, it's going to be good for everybody. If you've got a plumbing business, you're going to be better off [... ] if you've got a whole bunch of customers who can afford to hire you, and right now everybody's so pinched that business is bad for everybody and I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody."

?Spread the Wealth?? - Political Punch

Personally, I think Obama made a mistake... he didn't mean to let the cat out of the bag. He didn't mean to let everyone know what his real goals are... but he couldn't keep his mouth shut.

And here is the citation... posted a number of times before... in which Obama states that his goal is a single payer health care system.

This one is from August 2008: Obama Touts Single-Payer System for Health Care - Washington Wire - WSJ

And this one is from back in 2003 at the AFL-CIO event... the really damning one where he promisses to be sneaky about it: YouTube - Obama on single payer health insurance

Elliot

Hello again, El

You FAILED to post a quote where Obama said his "goal was redistribution of the wealth"...

That's FAILED, as in you CAN'T do it, as in, you are full of CRAP, as you always are.

In fact, you UNABLE to back up ANY of the garbage you spew around here??

excon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by excon

So, can we agree that the opposition to Obamacare, is REALLY opposition to Obama in general?

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Nope, I am opposed on the merits.

Quote:

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It would HELP if we could distinguish what your arguments are REALLY in opposition to... Elliot has finally come out. He thinks it's all a plot. Steve just jumped on board. Tom has ALWAYS been there... In fact, ALL of you have always been there...

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Just jumped on board? We've argued over Obama's ideology, policies, tendencies, associations and all of that from the beginning.

Quote:

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So, tell me this... IF Obama didn't take over GM, would his health care plan be cool with you?? Since you've muddeled it all up into one indistinguishable ball, and probably don't even know yourself, I'm just going to declare that you would.

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He doesn't even have a health care plan. But his willingness to take over so many private institutions is a huge red flag.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, El

You FAILED to post a quote where Obama said his "goal was redistribution of the wealth"...

That's FAILED, as in you CAN'T do it, as in, you are full of CRAP, as you always are.

In fact, you UNABLE to back up ANY of the garbage you spew around here???

excon

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I quoted his words, you don't believe him?

Hello again, El:

Maybe you just don't understand the native tongue very well. Spreading the wealth around is NOT saying his GOAL is the redistribution of wealth...

Saying his GOAL was a single payer system, is NOT saying that his GOAL is the redistribution of wealth...

I know you don't understand words too well, or how they fit together in a sentence, but give it a try for us... It's becoming harder and harder to figure out what the hell you're saying.

excon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I quoted his words, you don't believe him?

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Hello again, Steve:

I'm sorry. I missed 'em. Please re-direct me.

excon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, El

You FAILED to post a quote where Obama said his "goal was redistribution of the wealth"...

That's FAILED, as in you CAN'T do it, as in, you are full of CRAP, as you always are.

In fact, you UNABLE to back up ANY of the garbage you spew around here???

excon

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Really... so you don't see a connection between Obama saying that he wants to "spread the wealth" and "wealth redistribution"?

Then that makes you the only person in the entire USA who can't make that connection.

Here's the exact words:

"My attitude is that if the economy’s good for folks from the bottom up, it’s going to be good for everybody. If you’ve got a plumbing business, you’re going to be better off if you’re going to be better off if you’ve got a whole bunch of customers who can afford to hire you, and right now everybody’s so pinched that business is bad for everybody and I think when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody."

Let me repeat that, but with commentary for the mentally impaired...

"I" - Then Senator and now President Barack Hussein Obama

"think" - has in mind, contemplates

"when you spread the wealth around" - when you engage in wealth redistribution

"it's good for everybody." - it is a goal worth accomplishing.

But apparently, what Obama said and what he meant are two different things, right excon? He didn't really mean those words.

>snicker<

Elliot

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

He made this stuff very clear. He has stated that his GOAL is wealth redistribution,

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Are you arguing that Obama DIDN'T say that his goal was redistribution of wealth? Because both can be proven, they are both well documented. They were Obama's words, not Glenn Beck's.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Elliot:

Yes. SHOW ME THE QUOTE.

excon

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Really... so you don't see a connection between Obama saying that he wants to "spread the wealth" and "wealth redistribution"?

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Hello again, Elliot:

Yes, I DO see a CONNECTION. I can READ English after all. But, you CAN'T. You don't understand words. I see NOTHING about his GOALS. That would be NOTHING. I asked you to show me the QUOTE where he said that his GOALS were such and such, and you CANNOT do that. You absolutely CANNOT BACK UP the claims you make. THAT is abundantly clear. Anybody who can READ knows that to be so.

excon

Hello again, Elliot:

Ok, 2nd grade English.

1. When you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody.

2. My goal is the redistribution of wealth.

Questions.

a: Are those two statements the SAME?

b: Are those two statements close?

c. When you say number #1, could it be construed that you mean number #2?

d. Could it be even remotely construed to mean number #2?

e. If you said sentence number #1 and sentence #2 were the same, what's wrong with you?

Here are the answers. a, NO. b, NO. c, NO. d, NO. e. You're a dining room table.

excon

Ah... I see your point... you're point is... COMPLETELY ABSENT.

And I suppose that the words "I am a proponent of a single payer system," don't mean that either.

Keep trying to twist out of it, excon. He said it, hea meant it, and you can't handle the fact that you're wrong, and you are twisting in the breeze to try and unhang yourself from your own string of BS.

If Obama is proposing a specific tax plan, and he states to Joe the Plumber that the reason that he wants that specific tax plan is because he likes wealth redistribution AND THIS TAX PLAN WILL ACCOMPLISH THAT, that perhaps redistribution of wealth through his tax plan IS HIS GOAL?

He was using the 'wealth redistribution' argument as the basis to defend his tax plan, for godsake. What else could he have possibly meant other that "I want wealth redistribution and this tax plan is how I'm going to get it"?

It was his stated goal, to be accomplished... by his own words... with his tax plan.

Wrong as usual, excon... and looking more and more foolish by trying to deny it.

Elliot

Quote:

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello in:

No. Firemen are paid. VA doctors are paid. I don't understand the point you're making.

excon

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Firemen and VA doctors are paid BY TAXPAYERS.

I'm not paying for some schmuck down the street who is addicted to smack to get the SAME healthcare I'm getting. Screw that.

Once again--who is John Galt?