What??Quote:
The boyfriends all know each other?
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What??Quote:
The boyfriends all know each other?
Even if a female knows or has a good idea of who fathers their children, what's the likelihood they would tell that to anyone they think will hassle them, or the fathers by revealing those facts. Right or wrong SELF preservation is a compelling argument, as is the FEAR of what comes next. You can rant and rave about "I don't know", but what can you really do about it? Compel compliance by forcing a confession of sexual partners of unmarried women? Is not the priority to help or not, AFTER the deed is done? If you choose NOT to, then who will?
Thank God government is not as subjective to the practical side of human behavior.
You are trying to make the case that if a person makes a mistake, then the rest of us are morally, even legally obligated to support them in their mistake, even if they continue to repeat that mistake. If I accept that premise, then I could say that if a person purchases an expensive home and then finds out he/she cannot pay the mortgage, then the rest of us are obligated to make up the difference. Same thing would apply to any debt. If a person robs a bank and goes to jail, then the rest of us are obligated, I suppose, to spend part of that person's time in jail for them. If I am driving recklessly and wreck my car, then the rest of us must help pay for a new car. Well no, I don't agree with that outlook, and I find that those who advocate for that also don't bother to lift any standard of moral conduct and suggest that buying a house you can't afford, breaking the law, driving recklessly, and yes, sleeping around with anyone and everyone, should be held as foolish behavior and morally unacceptable.Quote:
Even if a female knows or has a good idea of who fathers their children, what's the likelihood they would tell that to anyone they think will hassle them, or the fathers by revealing those facts. Right or wrong SELF preservation is a compelling argument, as is the FEAR of what comes next. You can rant and rave about "I don't know", but what can you really do about it? Compel compliance by forcing a confession of sexual partners of unmarried women? Is not the priority to help or not, AFTER the deed is done? If you choose NOT to, then who will?
When Jesus forgave the woman caught in adultery, he left her with these parting words. "Go, and sin no more." That said two things. Yes, you are forgiven, but what you did was a sin before God and therefore unacceptable. That being the case, you need to stop that activity.
The "mistake " is a child whom you refuse to allow to be aborted once the woman realizes she's pregnant, yet you refuse to have anything to do with giving that child love and financial support once it has been born. At least, PP offers low-cost counseling and birth control to help these women avoid another unwanted pregnancy.Quote:
You are trying to make the case that if a person makes a mistake, then the rest of us are morally, even legally obligated to support them in their mistake, even if they continue to repeat that mistake.
You are wrong on several counts.Quote:
The "mistake " is a child whom you refuse to allow to be aborted once the woman realizes she's pregnant, yet you refuse to have anything to do with giving that child love and financial support once it has been born. At least, PP offers low-cost counseling and birth control to help these women avoid another unwanted pregnancy.
1. I clearly said the mistake was to sleep around with anyone and everyone. I never suggested the child was the mistake. In fact, between the two of us, I'm the only one who supports the right of the child to live in the womb.
2. You say that I refuse to allow the child to be aborted. Why didn't you say "we". You thus show yet again that your objection to abortion seems to be more words than anything else.
3. I am perfectly ready to give support to the mom and her child. I am not prepared to force other Americans to do so. That is your brand of charity, not mine.
4. PP is first and foremost an abortion provider. Birth control is already about as low cost as it can get. Your defense of PP would seem to show yet again your actual support of the abortion culture.
5. I notice you didn't comment on the point of those who repeatedly get pregnant out of wedlock. If they were to read your comments, they would likely get the idea that what they were doing is fine.
I think you mix YOUR religious rights with the legal function of government. The government is for all not just one religion. While you may not like the function of government, the government over rules any religious law of any religion, not just YOURS. While you are free to practice as you believe your beliefs, you cannot make others practice what YOU believe. That doesn't mean you cannot try to win others, but you cannot take them by force. That's just the law of the land, and right or wrong that's how the government of us all is structured.
Would you really deny bread to a women with out of wedlock kids? Of course you wouldn't. So what do you propose the government does with her?
What's your feelings about tearing down the Wall? A wall already exists, it is a reality. You will have to go all the way and try to convince people that the wall needs to be Torn Down...not going to be easy, but it is the only way you will prevent the future from extending the wall any further.
I beg to differ but the deed is done... NOW WHAT?Quote:
If they were to read your comments, they would likely get the idea that what they were doing is fine.
First of all, I'm always amused when someone says, "While you are free to practice as you believe your beliefs, you cannot make others practice what YOU believe." It's amusing because, of course, you are trying to make me practice what YOU believe. And it's even funnier since most people just can't seem to see or accept that.Quote:
I think you mix YOUR religious rights with the legal function of government. The government is for all not just one religion. While you may not like the function of government, the government over rules any religious law of any religion, not just YOURS. While you are free to practice as you believe your beliefs, you cannot make others practice what YOU believe. That doesn't mean you cannot try to win others, but you cannot take them by force. That's just the law of the land, and right or wrong that's how the government of us all is structured.
As for me, I don't intend to, but then on the other hand, I don't want you to enforce you moral ideas on the rest of us either by making us pay for what other people are doing. That truth needs to be for you as much as for me.
No, but on the other hand I would also not support a culture of sexual carelessness and abortion on demand the way you seem to do. And before I give her bread, I'd want to know if she was working and the father(s) of her children was working and supporting his children.Quote:
Would you really deny bread to a women with out of wedlock kids? Of course you wouldn't. So what do you propose the government does with her?
I was against a fence before there was one, I got out voted and a fence we have. I can only accept that reality. If a wall is built, I can onlt accept that reality. Maybe someday they will tear down the walls and fences, they did in Germany, but until then we accept them or go around them like any other man made obstacle for whatever purpose they were built for.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
What man builds doesn't always last.
Yes, they tore down the wall in Germany when the two German states were united into one. Are you suggesting we combine the U.S. and Mexico into one country?Quote:
Maybe someday they will tear down the walls and fences, they did in Germany,
You are funny too. I force you to do nothing but what if her answers are not what you like, will you deny woman and child bread and milk?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
God already combined them. It is man who separates them.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Of course you do. You said I could not impose my beliefs on others. Now in saying that, you are demonstrating your belief that it is wrong to impose your beliefs on others. That is your belief, and you are imposing it upon the rest of us.Quote:
You are funny too. I force you to do nothing
What??Quote:
God already combined them. It is man who separates them.
Nice dodge of the question with accusing me of forcing my beliefs on you. You expressed yourself and so did I no force we are doing so freely aren't we? Sorry you feel oppressed. Now back to the question please.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Find a map and erase the lines of men and what's left?Quote:
What??
From everything you've posted, yes, getting pregnant and having a child out of wedlock is the mistake. That comes down to, the child is the mistake.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I believe abortion can be done in a God-affirming way. The decision should be made together by the mother, father if he's anywhere around, and medical personnel.Quote:
2. You say that I refuse to allow the child to be aborted. Why didn't you say "we". You thus show yet again that your objection to abortion seems to be more words than anything else.
That's very unselfish. What happens to the other millions of babies that you can't support or don't even know about? Yet you pay taxes to support the VA (Trump says he'll end that), the food stamp program (another program that will soon disappear), and public schools (All children should attend Christian schools and their parents should pay tuition???). Before long, you won't have to pay ANY taxes! Yay!Quote:
3. I am perfectly ready to give support to the mom and her child. I am not prepared to force other Americans to do so. That is your brand of charity, not mine.
You are incorrect. Abortion is very far down the list of services they provide to low-income women. Their main services are prevention of pregnancy and women's health.Quote:
4. PP is first and foremost an abortion provider. Birth control is already about as low cost as it can get. Your defense of PP would seem to show yet again your actual support of the abortion culture.
Huh? Was I supposed to? Let's talk about WHY they get pregnant out of wedlock....Quote:
5. I notice you didn't comment on the point of those who repeatedly get pregnant out of wedlock. If they were to read your comments, they would likely get the idea that what they were doing is fine.
Having sex outside of marriage is the mistake. I've been plain about that. The man is as guilty as the woman.Quote:
From everything you've posted, yes, getting pregnant and having a child out of wedlock is the mistake. That comes down to, the child is the mistake.
So explain to us how you can kill an unborn child in a God-affirming way. If you do so, don't try to dodge the fact that you are killing the child.Quote:
I believe abortion can be done in a God-affirming way.
I would suggest we go back to a culture of men and women having sex (and babies) within the confines of marriage. Again, a very simple solution that worked in this country for many, many decades.Quote:
That's very unselfish. What happens to the other millions of babies that you can't support or don't even know about?
They perform more than 300 thousand abortions a year. You are kidding yourself.Quote:
You are incorrect. Abortion is very far down the list of services they provide to low-income women. Their main service is prevention of pregnancy.
The government created welfare for all those females that made mistakes, or those marriages didn't work out that well. What do we do with those in that circumstance who don't meet your Christian test? According to you that's WRONG, and for YOU to decide by YOUR standards.
No. I am saying that people make decisions and they need to live with their decisions. It is not for you, according to your own profession, to force your belief on other people and compel them to support someone else. You are the one who said we should not do that. Have you changed your mind?Quote:
The government created welfare for all those females that made mistakes, or those marriages didn't work out that well. What do we do with those in that circumstance who don't meet your Christian test? According to you that's WRONG, and for YOU to decide by YOUR standards.
So shut down ALL the services they proved for the one small one you are against. Passing judgement and punishment. It's you who kid yourself.Quote:
They perform more than 300 thousand abortions a year. You are kidding yourself.
300 thousand dead children a year. I have no idea in what way any person can call that "small". The difference is this. You don't care about the one million children a year killed in abortion. I do.Quote:
one small one
Seem like I was out voted on the fence decades ago, seems you are out voted on abortion rights. Neither of us has given up and I doubt we move to another country.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
And that mistake creates a huge problem. What do you think should be done with all those unloved and unwanted children?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
If the baby is already dead or dying, if the OB informs the mother that the baby must be aborted in order to save her life, if a fetus in its earliest stages is not wanted (incest, rape).Quote:
So explain to us how you can kill an unborn child in a God-affirming way. If you do so, don't try to dodge the fact that you are killing the child.
You're an educator??? Men have gotten women pregnant outside of marriage throughout human history. The population was much smaller and communication wasn't like now, so only family members and locals knew. And let's talk about white plantation owners and black slave women....Quote:
I would suggest we go back to a culture of men and women having sex (and babies) within the confines of marriage. Again, a very simple solution that worked in this country for many, many decades.
In short, too many men haven't respected women, have wanted their needs filled RIGHT NOW, and don't understand the word "no."
Wonder who does all the other millions.Quote:
They perform more than 300 thousand abortions a year. You are kidding yourself.
"Between 2010-2014, the Guttmacher Institute estimates that approximately 56 million abortions occurred each year around the globe."
So here is what I do not understand. If a fetus is not wanted, then you say we can kill it and God will affirm that. So what about after the child is born? Does that still hold true? If not, then what is it about the child being early in the pregnancy that makes it OK to kill it because it is not wanted? Think about that. "We don't want you, little kid, so we are going to kill you!"Quote:
If the baby is already dead or dying, if the OB informs the mother that the baby must be aborted in order to save her life, if a fetus in its earliest stages is not wanted (incest, rape).
This argument really stuns me. There are growing numbers of animal shelters that will not put an animal down (kill it) under any circumstances even though, plainly, some of them are not wanted. But that excuse works for human beings? Please explain that.
That is a distortion of the truth. Out of wedlock births amongst whites was about 3% in 1960. It is now about ten times than number. The increase amongst blacks is equally dramatic. Please don't make such a silly assertion that sexual morality is about the same now as it was decades ago. It is nonsense.Quote:
You're an educator??? Men have gotten women pregnant outside of marriage throughout human history. The population was much smaller and communication wasn't like now, so only family members and locals knew. And let's talk about white plantation owners and black slave women....
You'd rather know that child is being starved, beaten, and/or sexually abused? Personally, I'd rather be aborted.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I believe in euthanasia for animals with severe physical problems. The financial resources needed to keep them alive could be saving healthy animals from a bad life.Quote:
This argument really stuns me. There are growing numbers of animal shelters that will not put an animal down (kill it) under any circumstances even though, plainly, some of them are not wanted. But that excuse works for human beings? Please explain that.
Weren't you around in the '60s? Don't you know how women helped each other end unwanted pregnancies, of which there were surprisingly many, especially among teen girls? Of course, there are no stats, and they didn't tell the menfolk. And that's been true throughout history.Quote:
That is a distortion of the truth. Out of wedlock births amongst whites was about 3% in 1960. It is now about ten times than number. The increase amongst blacks is equally dramatic. Please don't make such a silly assertion that sexual morality is about the same now as it was decades ago. It is nonsense.
So if a child is being beaten, starved, or sexually abused, is it OK to kill the child now? You see, that's what my question to you is. Why is it OK to kill the child before birth but not afterwards? Why do you make that distinction?Quote:
You'd rather know that child is being starved, beaten, and/or sexually abused? Personally, I'd rather be aborted.
Who better to ask then the babies who survived abortions, or are they just disposable body parts?
Promise me you'll jump in to save that child from further abuse. Foster it? Or maybe we taxpayers can each chip in a few shekels to help that child!Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
For many CENTURIES woman never told a soul except trusted ones they had an abortion. Now that we know because they tell. I take it you liked blissful ignorance better. LOL, married women have abortions and end pregnancies, but no one can screw with them, just the poor women, and especially unmarried poor women.
That's not a very thoughtfully formed question and it's the LAW/government that makes the distinction that counts.Quote:
So if a child is being beaten, starved, or sexually abused, is it OK to kill the child now? You see, that's what my question to you is. Why is it OK to kill the child before birth but not afterwards? Why do you make that distinction?
You are avoiding the question. As for the taxpayers, Tal has said that you cannot force others to follow your beliefs.Quote:
Promise me you'll jump in to save that child from further abuse. Foster it? Or maybe we taxpayers can each chip in a few shekels to help that child!
It's a very well thought out question. I noticed you had no answer to it either.Quote:
That's not a very thoughtfully formed question and it's the LAW/government that makes the distinction that counts.
Guys, maybe this is just words to you, but I will never understand how any adult, especially one who is a confessing Christian, can be so tolerant of the destruction of human life. We are millions and millions and millions of deaths of innocent people ahead of the Nazis. That distresses me. The most innocent and defenseless are sacrificed because they are too much of a bother to us.
You must obey the law dude, we all do right?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I did answer your question... "Quote:
It's a very well thought out question. I noticed you had no answer to it either.
it's the LAW/government that makes the distinction that counts.".
There is no US in decisions between an individual and their creator. Should there be?Quote:
Guys, maybe this is just words to you, but I will never understand how any adult, especially one who is a confessing Christian, can be so tolerant of the destruction of human life. We are millions and millions and millions of deaths of innocent people ahead of the Nazis. That distresses me. The most innocent and defenseless are sacrificed because they are too much of a bother to us.
JL 3:2,3 -- Yea, I say unto thee, it is worthy of condemnation to abort a fetus during the first trimester, yet it is permitted to close thine ears to the cries of hungry, beaten, and abused babes. Woe to those who legally coerce their countrymen to pay taxes to care for those unfortunates.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
So you have no answer. Sad.Quote:
JL 3:2,3 -- Yea, I say unto thee, it is worthy of condemnation to abort a fetus during the first trimester, yet it is permitted to close thine ears to the cries of hungry, beaten, and abused babes. Woe to those who legally coerce their countrymen to pay taxes to care for those unfortunates.
I'm trying to be like you. (What was the question?) Psssst, you don't answer mine. *grump*Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
One excuse is about as good as another.
What is your excuse
Don't need one. I've answered her questions.
Well you missed the import of my questionQuote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
It's obvious, abortion is wrong. Nothing about it feels good. Those who support abortions feel the need to Justify...work to deceive themselves (and others) into believing that there is nothing wrong. Legalizing Abortion doesn't make it right.
But, But who's going to provide for the unwanted children...What the Heck are you going on about? That has absolutely nothing to do with it!!! Who is it that provided for the unwanted (Bastards...in fact what your referring too) before abortions became legal? Lets just Eliminate the little B*******, Is that the way you feel (its what your saying)? Why do you suppose they use to print "bastard" on Birth certificates?
Quote:
Abortion is very far down the list of services they provide to low-income women. Their main services are prevention of pregnancy and women's health.
Is that why thousands of Teenage girls are treating abortions as form of contraceptive?
Do you understand that motives for profit may be keeping it alive.
Maybe it's wrong to you or me, but to others it's not. Those thousands of teens you say use abortions as a contraceptive is a wild asertion that you should specify. Does the over the counter without a prescription day after pills countas abortions? To me it does not. What of the rise in teen suicides?
Forty Years ago there were no "others".Quote:
Maybe it's wrong to you or me, but to others it's not.
Let me rephrase that: recurring abortions as form of contraceptiveQuote:
thousands of Teenage girls are treating abortions as form of contraceptive
What is the governing force behind abortion?
Money, More Money, lies, deceit etc.
Having a (first time) abortion isn't like going to the Dentist. Before, during and after there are going to be some strong emotions...feel good moment? It's not so much the abortion itself..."Declaring" abortion as right is wrong.
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