I agree that there has to be a limit Chuck, but with gay marriage? What's the harm?
Sex before 16 can be harmful, so can marriage before a certain age, but there is no harm in gay marriage.
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I agree that there has to be a limit Chuck, but with gay marriage? What's the harm?
Sex before 16 can be harmful, so can marriage before a certain age, but there is no harm in gay marriage.
There is the rub! Who's morality are we talking about?Quote:
And there can not nor should there be "complete" freedom from morality, since there has to be a limit at some point
I'm curious to know that as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Also, what does morality have to do with two people that love each other getting married? I thought that was a moral act.
I agree Tal. I don't think this is just an issue of morality. I think this is more of an issue understanding, and empathy for gay people, to have the same rights under the law as others. Some may not agree, but people who are BORN gay, deserve to be recognised and be able to live a happy and fulfilling life, just like anyone else.
I have met several gay people in my life, and came to realise that they all put on their socks and shoes just as we do. They are not "freaks of nature", as some of them are seen and treated as such.
We have had young children commit suicide because they thought they were living in the wrong body, and were ostrasized (sp) by others... children and adults alike.
I think morality needs to start with compassion for the young children that are faced with this. How do you tell a young child, that what he or she is feeling is wrong?
Just on a personal note. I'm a straight heterosexal female. I once knew a man where I worked, in a professional setting. He was incredibly handsome, and didn't fit the stereo-typical role of a "gay" male. He had all of the hot woman clamouring around him. I couldn't figure out why he was always "dateless" when we would go out to the bar, or other social events. I found that he seemed very uncomfortable in social settings. He would get up and dance and socialize with the girls, but it was obvious he wasn't himself.
One day I got up the nerve to ask him if he was gay. At first he denied it, but both he and I knew he was lying. When he admitted it, he felt so ashamed, and was so afraid that he would lose me as a friend, because now I was one of the very few that knew. Others had left him when they found out. They quite obviously were not friends.
Fast forward several yrs. Stuart and I remained very good friends. We hung out all of the time, and he was always the type of person that just wanted everyone else to have fun and be happy. He was in a few short lived relationships, and I know that is because he was afraid of being made fun of.
Well, Stuart was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. (same thing Patrick Swayze has) It was in it's later stages. I went to many of his Dr.'s appt's with him, and sat with him in the hospital, while he was hooked up to all sorts of machines and tubes. He didn't live long after the diagnosis. It was heartbreaking!
Does anyone want to guess what the rumour around town was when he died? Go ahead, take a guess? Of course!. he MUST have died of AIDS right? What a wonderful send off for him!
So if we are going to talk morality here, lets think about how moral that was, and then we'll talk.
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Originally Posted by Altenweg
I don't agree with this.How is sex before 16 harmful?
The legal age for marriage in most countries is 16, in some Asian countries its 14
Marriageable age - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Even though I agree that same sex marriages should have exactly the same rights as any other marriage.but the same arguments that are made for same sex marriages could be made for polygamy.
Society has to draw a line, but that line is based upon morality Which morality you ask, the morality of the majority, since we live in a democratic society.
You mean YOUR morality according to YOUR religion?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Hello again:
I read the Constitution. The word "moral" isn't in there. You'd think that if the government was supposed to DO something about morals, the Constitution would say so.
It doesn't.
Those founders were pretty smart guys. If they wanted MORAL laws, they would have said so.
They didn't.
Therefore, ALL laws based upon the Christian idea of morality, are UNCONSTITUTIONAL, and should be consigned to the dustbin of history.
Let freedom ring!
excon
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One day I got up the nerve to ask him if he was gay. At first he denied it, but both he and I knew he was lying. When he admitted it, he felt so ashamed, and was so afraid that he would lose me as a friend, because now I was one of the very few that knew. Others had left him when they found out. They quite obviously were not friends.
Now, THIS is immoral. For a society to shun you or for you to feel ashamed of who you are, or afraid that friends will drop you if you admit your truth. This is so wrong!
That's only partly true, as we all cannot be denied equal protection under the law. No matter who you live with, and what you do with them. Being a democratic society is precisely why the majority cannot dictate morality to the minority.Quote:
Society has to draw a line, but that line is based upon morality Which morality you ask, the morality of the majority, since we live in a democratic society.
While the law cannot dictate what a church does in its own religion, it can give its citizens the same rights shared by all. If one church will marry gay people, and another will not, so be it, as that has nothing to do with law, but city hall should not have a choice to discriminate, and favor one set of beliefs over another, but that's just my opinion. That goes for tax discrimination between marrieds, and singles, and deductions for dependents. Its made to favor people who are married, and should not say who can marry, and who can't. Just my opinion again.
You're kidding, right? Well, a 16 year old is not physically, emotionally, financially old enough to have a child, and we all know that sex produces children. Are you saying that you would be okay with a 15 year old girl having sex? Wow! Now that's morally wrong.Quote:
don't agree with this.How is sex before 16 harmful?
I am not kidding, as I said before the legal age to get married in almost all countries is 16.Could you please point me to any scientific studies that show that have sex while you are 16 is harmful, I can point you out to a lot which says that it is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Please do point us to this information!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dare81
Marriageable age - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaQuote:
Originally Posted by starbuck8
Legal age for marriage link.
Let me try to find the link for the scientific studies, I have hard copies. Hopefully I can find the links too
You show me yours, I'll show you mine. I never said it was illegal, I said it was morally wrong. That's your argument against gay marriage, so tell me, do you think it's morally right for a 16 year old to marry? Forget about legalities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dare81
Again, if you had a daughter, would you allow her to have sex at 16 years of age? Would you think it's morally right to let her marry? If so, then we have nothing further to discuss.
Gay marriage between two consenting adults is more moral then marrying off a 16 year old child!
Physically harmful, no. Emotionally harmful, yes. There are studies about that. Academically harmful, yes. That's obvious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dare81
Have you looked around and talked with 16 y/os in the U.S. Many are thinking of college and a career, not a family. Sex makes babies. The culture in the U.S. does not prepare 16 y/os to be parents. It's preparing them to be productive adults. In other countries the culture is entirely different because 16 y/os are often considered adults there.
Morality differs from culture to culture, I am sure you know this, my mother was married to my father when she was 16. That is the cultural norm in Pakistan, hence it is moral in Pakistan to for teenagers at 16 to get married. It is illegal and morally wrong here to marry your cousins, in most Muslim countries it is moral and not illegal to marry your cousin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
So we can't have a society based on your moral as I said before, it is the morals of the majority that we have to live by.
This is the argument I was using for gay marriages.
I don't have children now and I don't know if I would have a problem with her having sex or getting married at 16. In by the way even if I did I wold not answer this question as it is personal, We can have a general discussion here and I am sure we can have that discussion without bringing my whole family in it
I agree. I thought we were talking about 16 year old from around the world not just from the U.S.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I agree, and just because the "law" says it's legal, doesn't make it moral. That IS what we were talking about here wasn't it? I don't need any scientific research to tell me that children that are not yet even at the age of consent, do not yet understand the consequences of their actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
It is however a scientific and medical fact, that your brain does not fully develop, until you are well into your 20's. Therefore, I would have to conclude that having sex at the age of 16 or younger, could be detrimental to the teens involved.
As far as I'm concerned, and this is my opinion, any country who allows children as young as 14 years of age to marry and have sex, is child abuse!
Then according to you the legal age for marriage should be in our 20's ? And if a 29 years old marries a 19 year old it should be considered child abuse?Quote:
Originally Posted by starbuck8
If we don't need any scientific studies, then all we would be doing is enforcing our morals on other.
We aren't talking about Pakistan, we're talking about the US and making Gay marriage legal there. I live in Canada, we already allow Gay marriage. Are you saying that Canadians have no morals, or maybe we're just more open minded than most.
You are the one that brought the moral issue into this game. As Excon stated, the constitution says nothing about morals. Too many people with differing ideas, we shouldn't consider morals when deciding on legalities.
Bottom line, who does it hurt to allow Gay marriage? Does it effect you? I doubt it. No one here has said that churches have to allow Gay marriages, nor do they (that are supposed love all man kind and accept all man kind) have to accept gays into their church. That is their right, no one is going to take that away from them.
But, why should Gays not have the same rights as the rest of us? Just because they love someone of the same sex? Do you really think they would choose that course? Why would anyone choose something that would ostersize them from society? It's not a choice it's who they are, therefore they should be allowed the same rights as any other human being on this planet.
Like it or lump it, you brought morality into this, and that shouldn't even be considered.
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