Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomder55

That Clete is almost always the case in these cases of cops killings . I can't speak of shared experiences . But what I was taught was to respect the police and if ever they stopped me to do what they said ;and if I thought they were wrong in any way ,to tell it to a lawyer or a judge. I got pulled over a few times when I was younger . The first thing I would do is put on my flashers ;and turn on the dome light ;and put my hands on the dash board where they were clearly visible . Then I would follow the cops directions ... if he asked for my license I would tell him it was in my pocket and asked permission to remove it . If he asked for my registration and insurance I would tell him they were in the glove compartment and I would ask permission to get them . If he told me to get out of the car I would . If he shined a flash light in my car I did not tell him he had no right to do that . If he physically searched my car I let him do it and did not demand to see a warrant . If I got a ticket I would accept it without objection. I got a ticket one time for speeding when I was not speeding.I contested it in court ;not on the street .

---

Tomder, everything you say here makes eminent good sense. Nobody is denying that. The guy should not have resisted, no matter how (or even if) he was badly handled. Apparently, he was cordial, passed the tests except for the breathylyzer (.101 barely DUI), but when the process which should have lasted a few minutes lasted for over half an hour, the guy felt misused. He struck out. Bad on him. Go to jail. Do not pass go.

It's the next few minutes that has the world in an uproar. The shootercop was shot at with a non-lethal weapon. The Georgia rules (as I understand them) were not to use lethal force unless the cop's life (or bystanders' lives) were in danger. That was clearly not the case. Two bullets in the back. Homicide.

Note: the black police sergeant defended his cop's actions. If you saw the interview, it was an excellent example of a cop defending his own, even tho the sergeant is black. His defense was poor. In court, a lawyer would destroy him.

As I'm sure you know, cops often act badly in black neighborhoods. More so than in white ones.

Quote:

---

As I'm sure you know, cops often act badly in black neighborhoods. More so than in white ones.

---

Is there data for that?

Quote:

---

The Georgia rules (as I understand them) were not to use lethal force unless the cop's life (or bystanders' lives) were in danger.

---

Athos read the police policy again .... the cops life doesn't necessarily have to be in danger .

"He or she reasonably believes that the suspect possesses a deadly weapon or any object, device, or instrument which, when used offensively against a person, is likely to or actually does result in serious bodily injury and when he or she reasonably believes that the suspect poses an immediate threat of serious bodily injury to the officer or others."
http://www.djj.state.ga.us/policies/...ttachmentA.pdf

Getting zapped with 500 volts can result in serious bodily injury .
The rules, and if he acted within the guidelines appears to be a technicality in this case . He is already prejudged . What this cop needs is a John Adams representing him. Adams represented the 8 Brit soldiers who were charged in the Boston Massacre .He took on the case because he believed that the case against the soldiers wasn't as clear cut as the people of Boston wanted him to believe they were .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomder55

Getting zapped with 500 volts can result in serious bodily injury .

---

And yet, aren't they used fairly readily by police?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomder55

Athos read the police policy again .... the cops life doesn't necessarily have to be in danger .

"He or she reasonably believes that the suspect possesses a deadly weapon or any object, device, or instrument which, when used offensively against a person, is likely to or actually does result in serious bodily injury and when he or she reasonably believes that the suspect poses an immediate threat of serious bodily injury to the officer or others."
http://www.djj.state.ga.us/policies/...ttachmentA.pdf

Getting zapped with 500 volts can result in serious bodily injury

---

.

Thanks for posting that. I heard differently - my mistake.

However, I would question "...likely to result in serious bodily injury..." I think that was highly unlikely considering Brooks was running away from the cop. Under those circumstances, there was no need to shoot him.

WG brings up a good point. The use of the taser is designed NOT to result in serious bodily injury. That's the whole point with those devices.

As to his being prejudged, we'll see tomorrow what he is charged with. It's hard not to prejudge the cop since the video is there for all to see.

Quote:

---

WG brings up a good point. The use of the taser is designed NOT to result in serious bodily injury

---

they are designed to disable . As l mentioned ;Amnesty Int estimates there have been 500 deaths from the use of tasers in the US.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomder55

they are designed to disable .

---

So why didn't another cop tase Brooks when he was only ten feet away? Why kill him?

Let a jury decide. The deed is done and yes he is part of the process now, and a guy is dead. If it weren't for the videos though, the normal thing is stall it in red tape with a long investigation that gets it off the front page and off the news and dismissed without further ado and the cop gets his back pay. Of course expect his work record to be revealed and all the bad stuff if any Brooks ever did, but if a court of law is the only way to hold a cop accountable so be it. Makes a hard job harder, but if we end up with better cops then great.

I have to tell you though, and no knock on anyone, but a society that can allow kids to be massacred in schools and do nothing about it, is a society that can minimize anything and ignore it. That's the only way I can explain some of the things this country has gone through and put up with, and that's not a good thing at all. Seems the struggle continues. The rug we sweep stuff under has to be packed with crap by now.

Quote:

---

So why didn't another cop tase Brooks when he was only ten feet away? Why kill him?

---

The Socratic method gets boring after a while . I made my case on the issue .

Quote:

---

Of course expect his work record to be revealed

---

I have no doubt that will be the cop's biggest weakness.

Quote:

---

but if a court of law is the only way to hold a cop accountable so be it.

---

He was fired without a hearing . What else can be done except a court if you are looking for justice ?

Quote:

---

but a society that can allow kids to be massacred in schools and do nothing about it, is a society that can minimize anything and ignore it.

---

Well that is a different topic completely a non sequitur to the discussion. I have answers to school shootings which are no doubt different than yours .

another unnecessary death, you have to wonder do black people have a death wish? they figure very high on the offenders list

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by paraclete

another unnecessary death, you have to wonder do black people have a death wish? they figure very high on the offenders list

---

It's always been that way. It takes an act of congress and nothing short of a war to change that. Minorities have been protesting and speaking out against the inequities, cruelty, injustices and atrocities for a century since the Civil War Clete, and all on deaf ears, excuses, and unsolicited advice (Seen here!), and gotten even more suppression, oppression, and outright dismissal.

Despite all that minorities still press forward.

Quote:

---

It's always been that way. It takes an act of congress and nothing short of a war to change that. Minorities have been protesting and speaking out against the inequities, cruelty, injustices and atrocities for a century since the Civil War Clete, and all on deaf ears, excuses, and unsolicited advice (Seen here!), and gotten even more suppression, oppression, and outright dismissal.

---

That's absolutely a load of garbage. You must have been asleep the past sixty years. The biggest challenges facing the black community now are internal, not external. It's the same old story. Given the choice between taking responsibility for our own actions and blaming someone else, most people will take the second choice since it is far, far easier.

LOL, you have proved yourself to be part of the problem by using your mouth, instead of your ears. I suppose its hard to hear with your head stuck knee deep in dufus a$$, and explains why you spew crap, but let me ask how you hold your nose?

I think speaking out is a form taking responsibility, and I'm sure you agree with that. Not saying there are not internal challenges, but every race has those since no race is an absolute monolith, but the external challenges are huge, as I and others have been saying. Its not ducking responsibility, so much as refusing the long standing cry for help.

We don't need bible advice as we have endured on FAITH thus far already, so try listening by remove your head from dufus A$$! His racist antics should not be yours. I will just note the number of white people you have liberated from the same boat black people are stuck in.

The powerlessness of poverty.

When you have no answers then you get ugly. Always predictable. Anyone who can't acknowledge the enormous changes of the past sixty years is stupid beyond belief. It's that willfully blind and whiny approach that gets old. If you're looking for someone to feel sorry for you, and that is likely, then look elsewhere. To have the amazing opportunities inherent in living in this country and then walk around whining and complaining all day long is something I do not care for.

You've been drinking the kool aid far too long.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

When you have no answers then you get ugly. Always predictable. Anyone who can't acknowledge the enormous changes of the past sixty years is stupid beyond belief. It's that willfully blind and whiny approach that gets old. If you're looking for someone to feel sorry for you, and that is likely, then look elsewhere. To have the amazing opportunities inherent in living in this country and then walk around whining and complaining all day long is something I do not care for.

You've been drinking the kool aid far too long.

---

You don't handle disagreement well, do you? "...stupid beyond belief. willfuly blind, whiny approach..." So typical of you.

Who's drinking the Kool-aid now?

Quote:

---

You don't handle disagreement well, do you? "...stupid beyond belief. willfuly blind, whiny approach..." So typical of you.

---

I can handle disagreements. I don't care for the whiny approach. "I can't respond to your statement, so I'll just make a vulgar comment." Where I live, a comment like that can get your arse whipped and rightfully so. Making those comments over the relative safety of the internet strikes me as cowardly and ignorant.

If someone chooses to ignore the great strides made in this country in racial equality over the past sixty years, then that person is indeed stupid and willfully blind. BTW, I did not say that was true of Tal. I simply said it as a general statement. He will have to decide if the shoe fits. I think he has better sense than to believe that.

Ever get around to deciding what your religious beliefs are?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Where I live, a comment like that can get your arse whipped and rightfully so. Making those comments over the relative safety of the internet strikes me as cowardly and ignorant.

---

Let me get this straight - you say that "comments over the relative safety of the internet strike you as cowardly and ignorant. Where you live, comments like that can get your arse whipped and rightfully so." Nice Christian sentiment. Do you have a verse in the Bible where Jesus commands his followers to "whip their arses"?

I had to smile at that unwitting description of yourself, a description that defines YOU to a T. But you are not admitting that, are you? No, I didn't think so.

You are threatening others from the very safety you denounce and which you yourself are hiding behind. Do you ever censor what you post so as not to appear as a complete moron? No, I didn't think so.

There is not a doubt in my mind that in real life you are a woos and afraid of your shadow. That is almost always true of people who threaten anonymously. Where I live, that would not be cause for whipping you. It would only be cause for pity.

Quote:

---

If someone chooses to ignore the great strides made in this country in racial equality over the past sixty years, then that person is indeed stupid and willfully blind.

---

When you insist on bringing this up in the face of the brutal treatment blacks have historically received at the hands of police (and racists I might add) and insist on ignoring what is currently happening as this country is trying to come to grips with people like you, then the stupidity and blindness is all yours. Own it!

Quote:

---

BTW, I did not say that was true of Tal.

---

You implied it, of course. But tal needs no defense from me. He is quite capable of handling folks like you, as we have seen over and over.

Quote:

---

Ever get around to deciding what your religious beliefs are?

---

Wow - talk about a non-sequitur! My religious beliefs have developed over my lifetime. Something you would do well to consider so you can get off that spot you've been stuck on since childhood.

In any case, my religious beliefs are none of your business. If I thought for a minute your question was honest, I'd be only too happy to discuss my beliefs with you or anyone. Since I know your question, like others you have asked, is designed only to find fault and criticize whatever doesn't coincide with your beliefs, the better part of wisdom is to decline your villainous invitation.

Quote:

---

My religious beliefs have developed over my lifetime

---

That made me laugh. "My religious beliefs are none of your business." Fine with me. I knew you wouldn't do it. Easier to criticize from the dark. To post your own beliefs would require some backbone.

You were wrong about me making a threat. I threatened no one. Just made a very accurate observation. The rest of your post was just more of the usual blah, blah, blah.

As for the achievements of the civil rights movement, to ignore and make light of the gains achieved at the price of the blood of brave individuals might be fine for you, but I still consider it to be both stupid and intentional blindness, so I won't participate in that. The Voting Rights Act was never passed. The Civil Rights Act was never passed. Martin Luther King never lived. Ten of thousands of minority individuals were never elected to public office. Have it your way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

That made me laugh. "My religious beliefs are none of your business." Fine with me. I knew you wouldn't do it. Easier to criticize from the dark. To post your own beliefs would require some backbone.

---

If he told you, then you would do what? (I can already smell your answer.)

Probably nothing. I just think that anyone so quick to heavily criticize the religious beliefs of others, and not to mention him being one who jumps up and down in sheer anger when someone else does not answer his question as quickly as he thinks that person should, might want to have the courage to post his own beliefs, But it's fine with me. Like I said, I figured he wouldn't do it, and he's right in saying that it's none of my business. I'm good with it. It's kind of like why you disagree with abortion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

It's kind of like why you disagree with abortion.

---

And why do I?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I knew you wouldn't do it.

---

Then why did you ask?

Quote:

---

Easier to criticize from the dark.

---

I have never criticized anyone's religious beliefs with one exception. YOURS! And basically one false doctrine of yours - the existence of people suffering torture eternally in hell. It comes from a sick mind.

Quote:

---

To post your own beliefs would require some backbone.

---

Not at all. All I have ever said about my beliefs is that I would not discuss them with you. "Backbone" - strawman.

Quote:

---

You were wrong about me making a threat. ......The rest of your post was just more of the usual blah, blah, blah.

---

No I wasn't. You made it very clear. You backtrack badly.

The "rest of my post" had some home truths you didn't like, didn't it? Your "blah, blah, blah" reply is one you've used before when you can't answer.

Quote:

---

As for the achievements of the civil rights movement, to ignore and make light of the gains achieved at the price of the blood of brave individuals might be fine for you, but I still consider it to be both stupid and intentional blindness, so I won't participate in that. The Voting Rights Act was never passed. The Civil Rights Act was never passed. Martin Luther King never lived. Ten of thousands of minority individuals were never elected to public office. Have it your way.

---

I truly hope people are following you here. The hypocrisy of your position reeks. Soon you'll be telling us that African-Americans have it better than poor people in Africa so African-Americans should be grateful. That's a common thread of the argument from your ilk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

When you have no answers then you get ugly. Always predictable. Anyone who can't acknowledge the enormous changes of the past sixty years is stupid beyond belief. It's that willfully blind and whiny approach that gets old. If you're looking for someone to feel sorry for you, and that is likely, then look elsewhere. To have the amazing opportunities inherent in living in this country and then walk around whining and complaining all day long is something I do not care for.

You've been drinking the kool aid far too long.

---

I love Kool-Aid. It's my beverage of choice. I also love it when you try to spew the crap you get from the dufus arse and pass it off as honest thoughtful discussion. I have continued to express the struggles of my people and the great contributions to building this great nation you enjoy, yet deny minorities that same enjoyment, so if all you gleaned from that is whining and complaining then that only proves yet again, your failure, or inability, or unwillingness to simply LISTEN.

Doesn't really matter because if history is any indication the struggle will continue, no matter the opposition or challenges. Doesn't matter how you take it, or do about it either. Wise to be thoughtful though of your words and actions because you might have to eat the MOFO's!

If my words provoke you to whup some a$$ though, I highly suggest you refrain from trying such foolishness, or at least bring a bat! Not that it would do you any good, or keep me from LMAO...some more! For sure you do better just enjoying the donuts.

Quote:

---

Then why did you ask?

---

To make your lack of backbone clear.

Quote:

---

And basically one false doctrine of yours - the existence of people suffering torture eternally in hell. It comes from a sick mind.

---

My beliefs come from the words of Christ. If you are saying He has a sick mind, then I don't know what to say to that.

Quote:

---

All I have ever said about my beliefs is that I would not discuss them with you.

---

I agree. That's all you've ever said. It would take courage to say more, or in your case to say anything at all. But like I've said. If you don't want to post it, then don't do it. Fine with me.

Nice try at dodging your disregard of the courageous achievements of the Civil Rights era. Won't work, but nice try.

Now to be clear, if a person wants to say that we still a ways to go in civil rights, then I would agree with that. To say, as as was said earlier, that we have made no progress at all is simply ridiculous and completely discounts what those CR pioneers were able to accomplish. I won't participate in that.

Officer charged with felony murder, partner to testify for state!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/of...?ocid=msedgntp

Not sure what "felony murder" is, but I can't see that they will get a conviction. I guess we'll see.

Officer charged with felony murder, partner to testify for state!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/of...?ocid=msedgntp
Like I speculated ;it will be decided in the courts . Do you think Garrett Rolfe will get a fair hearing ? I'm sure given the passions in the aftermath that he will argue he cannot get a fair jury of peers and will petition to change venues .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Not sure what "felony murder" is, but I can't see that they will get a conviction. I guess we'll see.

---

tal's link explains felony murder. The article also notes, "Brooks was holding a stun gun he had snatched from officers but was 18 feet, 3 inches away when he was shot by Garrett Rolfe and was running away at the time."

The DA said that Brooks posed no threat because the Taser after two uses had no more charge left, and its against police policy to shoot a fleeing subject with a taser or gun, and they have videos of the cops celebrating then kicking Brooks and failing to call for medical assistance for two and a half minute. Its all contained in the article or go here.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...tail&FORM=VIRE

Quote:

---

he will argue he cannot get a fair jury of peers and will petition to change venues .

---

Yeah. I would think so.

Quote:

---

they have videos of the cops celebrating then kicking Brooks and failing to call for medical assistance for two and a half minute. Its all contained in the article or go here.

---

If that's true, then it sure changes things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

To make your lack of backbone clear.

---

I repeat, why did you ask about my religious beliefs? Nobody is buying the backbone crap. Are you afraid to tell the truth? Don't worry - nobody will whup your arse for telling the truth.

Quote:

---

My beliefs come from the words of Christ.

---

No, they don't. They come from a verse in a book - a verse badly translated almost 2,000 years ago by the sainted Jerome and repeated ever since.

Quote:

---

If you are saying He has a sick mind, then I don't know what to say to that.

---

Here's what to say - "I'm sorry for passing on untruths about hell. Please forgive me. I'll try to do better from now on".

Quote:

---

I agree.

---

Good. You agree. (Another topic). Now, once more, WHY do you want to know my religious beliefs?

Quote:

---

That's all you've ever said. It would take courage to say more, or in your case to say anything at all.

---

That's all I've ever discussed HERE. Courage is not required - my religious beliefs are hardly the stuff of courage. You just say that because you're angry. You need to control that anger.

Quote:

---

If you don't want to post it, then don't do it. Fine with me.

---

First, you want my religious beliefs. Now you don't want my religious beliefs. Which is it? I think you're a bit confused.

Quote:

---

Nice try at dodging your disregard of the courageous achievements of the Civil Rights era.

---

The only dodging is in your fevered brain. The Civil Rights era has not been the topic here.

Quote:

---

Now to be clear, if a person wants to say that we still a ways to go in civil rights, then I would agree with that.

---

To be clear, that has not been an issue here except when you bring it up in an attempt to avoid the present police-black confrontations.

Quote:

---

To say, as as was said earlier, that we have made no progress at all

---

I don't recall anyone here saying that.

Quote:

---

I won't participate in that.

---

Is that a promise?

I await the reason you asked for my religious beliefs.

Quote:

---

No, they don't. They come from a verse in a book - a verse badly translated almost 2,000 years ago by the sainted Jerome and repeated ever since.

---

Now if you can just talk the vast, vast majority of NT scholars into going along with you in their translations, you might make some progress.

Look, you want me to agree with you on a ridiculous (my view) idea about the translation of the Greek aionios. I'm going with the hundreds of NT scholars, far smarter, more professional, and experienced than you, and their translation of the word. And when I do, then I find that I'm in agreement with the words of Jesus which is my goal in all things. Not complicated and very reliable. You don't like that and it gets you irritated. That's regrettable.

I asked you for your religious beliefs to see if you would have the courage to state them. You don't. Like I said, if it bothers you so much, then forget it. Not a big deal. I suppose you have reasons for being secretive and you have a right to it. I didn't realize it was such an act of Congress for you to state your beliefs.

Getting mixed signals on some of this. From ABC News.

"Howard said that Brosnan has since decided to testify on behalf of the state. But in a statement sent Wednesday evening, Brosnan's attorney, Don Samuel, said that the officer has not agreed to testify."He will continue to tell the DA or the GBI [Georgia Bureau of Investigation], or any other investigator what happened. But he is absolutely not guilty of any crime and will not plead guilty and has not agreed to be a 'state's witness,'" the statement said.
Also, there was no mention of any laughter by the officers or of celebrating.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/da-announc...posts_card_hed

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Getting mixed signals on some of this.

---

Please reread tal's post #469. Plus, as I posted earlier, the cop's very prolonged horizontal gaze nystagmus (HGN) test would have caused me to punch him in the gut.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I asked you for your religious beliefs to see if you would have the courage to state them.

---

No, you asked because you wanted to know what they are. Courage has nothing to do with it. That's just something you made up. I think I know what your reasons are. You will simply dismiss anything I have to say re religion if my beliefs are sufficiently distant from yours. You're an open book.

Quote:

---

if it bothers you so much, then forget it.

---

It bothers me not a whit. That's why I repeated the question of WHY do you need to know my beliefs. You have now denied twice explaining your question - the "courage" business is just so much nonsense, and you know it. I think you have realized you're on shaky religious ground and have decided to avoid the situation.

Quote:

---

I suppose you have reasons for being secretive

---

You ask for my beliefs, I ask why, and you call that SECRETIVE?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Athos

.You will simply dismiss anything I have to say re religion if my beliefs are sufficiently distant from yours. You're an open book.

---

And you must have been watching how he treats me and how he makes fun of or disrespects any personal revelations I've made.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

And you must have been watching how he treats me and how he makes fun of or disrespects any personal revelations I've made.

---

Yes, I have and all the others he disrespects. In some ways, I feel sorry for him. He's very insecure and strikes out at anyone who disagrees with him. If he would only listen........

Time for Rachael.

If you don't like talking with me, then talk with someone else. There is no good reason to think Paul was a homosexual or that he was persecuted for being homosexual. There is no good reason to think that "homosexual" in the Bible means something other than "homosexual". There is no good reason to think that eternal means something other than eternal. Now you two believe otherwise. Fine with me. I don't begrudge you your beliefs, but neither will I accept them simply because you advocate for them. Believe and let believe. If you don't want to hear, then don't ask. If you ask, then don't whine about getting an answer. But if if I am asked, then you will get the best answer I can come up with. I have nothing to hide.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

If you don't like talking with me, then talk with someone else. There is no good reason to think Paul was a homosexual or that he was persecuted for being homosexual. There is no good reason to think that "homosexual" in the Bible means something other than "homosexual". There is no good reason to think that eternal means something other than eternal. Now you two believe otherwise. Fine with me. I don't begrudge you your beliefs, but neither will I accept them simply because you advocate for them. Believe and let believe. If you don't want to hear, then don't ask. If you ask, then don't whine about getting an answer. But if if I am asked, then you will get the best answer I can come up with. I have nothing to hide.

---

But you don't talk or discuss with us. You try to one-up each of us!

Then you throw in a put-down or derogatory comment. Why shame someone with a different POV from yours?

Quote:

---

Then you throw in a put-down or derogatory comment. Why shame someone with a different POV from yours?

---

You mean like you just did? And do you remember saying that shaming is OK if it's true, as in the case of "fat" Trump?

I don't mind the conversations with you, but you know what you're going to get from me. I'm not going to fall all over myself to agree with your non-biblical, liberal views. You are welcome to them, but I find the support for them to be completely uncompelling. Neither of us will convince the other, so let's just drop it. Talk to someone else if you need to.