We are not here to do Bible study led by youQuote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
|
We are not here to do Bible study led by youQuote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
It's not that I don't respect what you say. It's that you don't say anything. You give outlandish opinions, and then suggest we do more research, endlessly repeating about how "the world turned upside down after Genesis 3", but at some point you have to know enough scripture to support your point. That's what I continue to wait on.Quote:
No, it's time you start digging and researching. You obviously have no respect for what I say, so please do some honest reading in reputable concordances and histories of Bible lands and Jewish practices. Read Kissing Fish by Roger Wolsey. Read up on the cultural background and meaning of St. Paul's made-up word, arsenokoites.
Reputable concordances? Give me either the concordance or, more specifically, the Greek lexicon that supports your arsenokoitai view. Either do so, or do please stop endlessly bringing it up.
W.G>: There is NO homosexuality in the animal kingdom nor in nature: Homosexuality is unnatural.
Do some honest research, V7. Homosexuality is very much present in the animal and insect world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
I hope you are not suggesting that we humans pattern ourselves on the animal world. There is a reason we refer to brutal people as "animals".
W.G.: Homosexuality in the Animal World? You must be reading the National Enquirer! Doesn't happen! The Animal World is all about procreating and procreating doesn't happen when males couple with males or females with females! If what you say is true, then animals and insects would be lost to extinction because there would be no reproduced young!
Again, The Laws Of Nature and Natural Law cannot be violated....or they cannot be violated for very long before retributions are demanded: You cannot contest what is natural and you cannot support what is unnatural.
Imperial wisdom, or high hopes Vac? In humans homosexuality EXISTS, and though the numbers are unknown, has existed for thousands of years that we know of. In addition we have learned hopefully that a growing number of bi-sexuals also exists fully capable of procreating and still being GAY. Know many myself with kids and marriages that now are openly gay. The range of human sexuality has grown and expanded greatly the last few decades and we are and will continue to find even more who do not fit into the small boxes of the human experience that comply with notions of what's natural and what's not, as I respectfully submit those natural laws of which you speak may indeed be rewriting themselves whether we agree or not, or like it or NOT.
I don't think anyone is arguing that homosexuality does not exist in humans, or bi-sexuals either for that matter. You could, of course, say the same thing about people having sex with minors, people having sex with animals, people having sex with multiple partners, people who want to have sex in public, pornography, and so forth. The question under discussion was the view of the Bible on all of that, and the fact that, from a Biblical point of view, the only acceptable place for sexual activity is in marriage between a man and a woman.
Not even bible readers and followers can agree on that one my friend, as this nation of diverse citizens are more accepting of the existance of reasonable human behavior, while still rejecting what's still considered abnormal behavior. We know for fact, sexuality aside, that humans do what they do, whether its good, bad, or in the middle. Far more reject child sex, yet soften on gay marriage, including Christians, and an even greater number define the concept and institution of marriage in other terms outside of ANY religion group.
In this secular nation the bible is not the only or final authority in the definition of marriage.
There is actually pretty substantial agreement on that one from serious Bible students. The disagreement comes for the casual side. You simply cannot find any evidence in the Bible that God approves of same gender sex or gay marriage. It just isn't there.Quote:
Not even bible readers and followers can agree on that one my friend
Correct, but I can find many Christians that don't care one way or another about gay marriage, and more than a few churches and pastors that actually will marry them. Many states grant a marriage license, so the evidence is that it is happening and in greater number. I cannot speak to the casual Christian, or the serious student, nor whether or not it's written, on that I take your word, but fact is it's happening, despite the serious students objection. The biggest thing though is the clergy is not the only one that can perform a lawful wedding, and that is what actually counts, so marriage and it's definition is not the exclusive domain of the church.
A state can define it also, and have.
Talaniman: So, through government intrusion into the business of families, absurd "laws" to help promote said behaviors that they were promoting, intrusions into the educational systems (starting at very young ages), public condemnations and the making of religion to be a pariah, the government funding of said "special interests" groups, and many other maneuverers to prop up the narrative that homosexuality was a "NORMAL" way of life, you may have finally beaten down a good portion of the American People, through constant haranguing and threats, to ostensibly "accept" the government line of crap that circulates around this subject.....and that is unfortunate. This FORCE-FEEDING of homosexual virtues upon the American People by the government is truly as bizarre as it is alarming and the purpose of it can only be to help facilitate the rapid decline of the American Family, the decay of which has been fueled by the government on many, many fronts over the years.
The majority rules, or it is supposed to rule, in the U.S. and this makes us wonder how the government was able ram-rod this homosexual agenda through because the majority of people DO NOT deem homosexuality as normal behavior?
The alarming part is this: If the government decides to condone Animalism, jlisenbe has alluded to, what is there to stop them from pushing that agenda upon us, too?
The same can be said of child porn, child sexual abuse, human trafficking, and adultery, so I have no idea what conclusion you want me to draw from that. If it's happening and in greater numbers, then we are to just accept it?Quote:
so the evidence is that it is happening and in greater number.
You are certainly correct in that regard. My parents were married by a JP. As I said earlier, the issue for me is whether or not the church is prepared to take a stand just in regard to the teaching of the Bible. I get real edgy when a professing Christian states that God accepts homosexual behavior/gay marriage but has not a single shred of scriptural evidence to support that contention.Quote:
The biggest thing though is the clergy is not the only one that can perform a lawful wedding, and that is what actually counts, so marriage and it's definition is not the exclusive domain of the church.
jlisenbe: I have a real problem with clergy, or anyone else, for that matter, that purports homosexuality to be fine and dandy and, at the same time, supports abortion, as well.
Vac, I agree with you on both counts.
Here's a summary about homosexuality in animals:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo...ior_in_animals
Read about Chicago's power couple, Myles and Precious (they've had their baby):
https://blockclubchicago.org/2019/07...having-a-baby/
My husband's sister and her female partner of 30+ years were finally able to legally marry. Years ago they had adopted a newborn boy who has turned out to be a wonderful (straight, as I know you're wondering) young man.
I'm involved in and have friends in the transgender community. They are more than willing to answer my questions, even the very personal ones.
Christian churches (ELCA Lutheran among others) accept the LGBTQIA community as worshippers and members.
And still no scripture to back up your position. Can you see that that's what's lacking? Your opinion carries no more weight than mine in a discussion of what God says about all of this.
The point isn't proof passages. The point was to show that there is homosexuality in the animal kingdom. The Wikipedia article is merely one source; there are many more.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I thought it would be fun (and educational) for you to read about Myles and Precious.
...And that straight children can be raised by a lesbian couple (my SIL and her wife). Hmm, maybe sexuality isn't a choice....
Ask me a transgender question. I'll toss it out to my trans friends. Oh, and read up on DES. It is an estrogen that was given to pregnant women from the '30s to the early '70s, women who were in danger of miscarrying. Many babies that resulted were intersex, had a mix of male and female sex organs. Those babies are now in their 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s, still struggling with their situation and many finally doing something about it (transitioning).
JL probably knows no hermorphidites and wouldn't know how to counsel them I'm betting, but I could be wrong. At least I want to be. Personally I marvel at the great things the Creator has made for us on this world and the real test is how you treat one another, and our home.
W.G.: The is a man of the Hebrew faith called Benjamin Shapiro....he is a very logic driven thinker and debater: I once heard him express the question "TRANSGENDER" this way: There is no "Transgender" because when one takes a DNA test they are EITHER MALE OR FEMALE AND THEY ARE NEVER MALE AND FEMALE WITHIN THE SAME PERSON! Case closed.
He is very incorrect. The DNA test doesn't say that at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
Here's another Wikipedia article that should should be easy enough to understand:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
"Intersex people are born with sex characteristics (including genitals, gonads and chromosome patterns) that do not fit typical binary notions of male or female bodies."
Transgender has nothing to do with DNA, but a persons own psycology tied to feelings that are very strongly associated with how they see themselves and how others see them. That's why years of counseling comes first, before a final decision to proceed is made. You don't just wake up and find a surgeon and walk out a new male or female.
That's where you and I sharply differ. I guess you discover God's will in the animal kingdom. I look to the Bible. At least that much has become clear.Quote:
The point isn't proof passages. The point was to show that there is homosexuality in the animal kingdom
As to the animal kingdom, animals routinely kill and eat each other. Do you now say that killing and eating other humans is the will of God? Predators routinely attack the sick, weak, and young of their prey, so does that also mean that we should prey upon the weak, sick, and young?
Isn't that where most mental health disease comes from? Does that make it all wonderful?Quote:
a persons own psycology tied to feelings that are very strongly associated with how they see themselves and how others see them.
The question was about homosexuality in the animal kingdom. (Ask about the plant kingdom, too.) I provided a reference. We were not talking about God or the Bible at the time. As I have said more than once, the happenings in Genesis 3 opened up the universe to limitless possibilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Please answer my question: What did lions and tigers and bears eat before The Fall?
No. You need to get acquainted with trans and intersex people -- and listen to them.Quote:
Isn't that where most mental health disease comes from? Does that make it all wonderful?
Yes we have been talking about the Bible and homosexuals. Your reference to Gen. 3 is so vague and pointless as to be meaningless and can easily be taken to mean that anything that happened after the fall of man is just fine with God. But the fall was not a good event but a bad one, and the consequences are not treated as desirable at any point. You must have scripture if you want to discuss the Bible. We just completely differ there.Quote:
The question was about homosexuality in the animal kingdom. (Ask about the plant kingdom, too.) I provided a reference. We were not talking about God or the Bible at the time. As I have said more than once, the happenings in Genesis 3 opened up the universe to limitless possibilities.
It is only in this "enlightened" age in which we live that the crazy idea that there are more than two genders has come forward. People mistakenly have all kinds of ideas about themselves. Some people genuinely think they are a dog. Others think they are a god. Yet others are convinced they can fly or they need to kill him/her self. We don't accept those things as normal. Well, you might, but most people don't, and nor should we accept the silly notion that a boy is really a girl or vice versa.
Fact is the Creator is the final judge, not anyone here.
LGBT individuals have been in this world since Genesis 3. Native Americans called them "two-spirit" people who were accepted and respected by their tribes. Read more here:Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
https://www.nicoa.org/two-spirit-persons/
You've never studied Greek and Roman history and read about gays and lesbians? I have no doubt bi and trans were there too.
Here's more to read about non-binary individuals (and yes, even in ancient Jewish texts):
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Non-binary_gender
I will refrain from saying what I'd like to say. Please open your mind and educate yourself. I'm sure there are LGBT individuals in your extended family.Quote:
It is only in this "enlightened" age in which we live that the crazy idea that there are more than two genders has come forward. People mistakenly have all kinds of ideas about themselves. Some people genuinely think they are a dog. Others think they are a god. Yet others are convinced they can fly or they need to kill him/her self. We don't accept those things as normal. Well, you might, but most people don't, and nor should we accept the silly notion that a boy is really a girl or vice versa.
"There is a misconception that the concept of non-binary genders is relatively new -- that it is supposedly a product of the Internet age ... Cultures around the world have had more than two gender types for millennia. Anthropologists who have documented these roles tend to use the term Cogender."
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Non-binary_gender
W.G.: The general liberal line (I use "liberal" loosely because there are many people of all stripes saying this but I hear this idea come from liberals more often) is that homosexuality is not a "CHOICE", that you are born that way....so, I must ask this: If homosexuality is not a "CHOICE" and these people are born that way, how can you say: "Transgender has nothing to do with DNA, but a persons own psycology tied to feelings that are very strongly associated with how they see themselves and how others see them. That's why years of counseling comes first, before a final decision to proceed is made. You don't just wake up and find a surgeon and walk out a new male or female"? It seems from that quote that being a homosexual IS a choice.
That's not a homosexual. (Btw, doctors or therapists or a nasty parent can't make someone become a homosexual.) Tal was talking about a transgender individual who transitions via HRT, bottom surgery, voice coaching etc. to become their true gender.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
Well, it has become apparent that no Biblical text is going to be forthcoming. That's actually a relief in a way. I'm pretty familiar with the Bible and yet it's possible that I might have overlooked the passage that spoke in favor of homosexual unions, but plainly that is not the case. One can only hope that in the future you will refrain from proclaiming that the Bible gives its consent to this lifestyle.
As to your ongoing wisdom about homosexuals, trans people, someone "becoming" his/her true gender, I would only comment that you seem to be saying that since these conditions exist, then it must be God's will and all is well. Does that also apply to compulsive thieves, or wife beaters, or drug pushers, or bullies, or any one of hundreds of other conditions that have been around forever and do seem to have some compulsive element to them, or does it only to those conditions approved by liberal orthodoxy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
Your logic is flawed in that you disregard the basic statement"That's why years of counseling comes first, before a final decision to proceed is made. You don't just wake up and find a surgeon and walk out a new male or female"?The patient already knows what they are, and a physician just verifies it before surgery or treatments begin. SOP!
Thanks WG. Obviously you know how the process works better than most.
None of us knows what the Creators masterplan is so who can say? Not all wisdom is found in scripture. I think no matter the religion, a personal relationship with your God is even more important than scripture. Anyone can read a book and mouth the words, but at some point you have to tap into the source of all things for yourself. Leave that orthodoxy alone for a change.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Funny. That's what just about everyone seems to say when they can't get the Bible to agree with their own ideas. I have that personal relationship with my God through Jesus. I know about him through the teaching of the Bible. He lives in my heart and it doesn't get any more personal than that, and I highly, highly recommend Him to anyone and everyone.Quote:
None of us knows what the Creators masterplan is so who can say? Not all wisdom is found in scripture. I think no matter the religion, a personal relationship with your God is even more important than scripture. Anyone can read a book and mouth the words, but at some point you have to tap into the source of all things for yourself. Leave that orthodoxy alone for a change.
Now I really hope you will answer this question, but I doubt that you will. If the patient knows he is a dog, then does that make it so? If he knows he is Jesus, or the devil, or a lovely swan, or any one of many other deceptions, then does that make it so, and should a doctor labor to make that, as much as he can, a reality?Quote:
The patient already knows what they are,
You know darn well that's not what we're talking about. If you're going to play stupid games, I'm finished with this topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
No doctor I know of concedes to whatever a patient wants without a comprehensive verification process so your answer is NO, and WG and I already pointed that out. Did you miss it?Quote:
Now I really hope you will answer this question, but I doubt that you will. If the patient knows he is a dog, then does that make it so? If he knows he is Jesus, or the devil, or a lovely swan, or any one of many other deceptions, then does that make it so, and should a doctor labor to make that, as much as he can, a reality?
Yes!!Quote:
I'm finished with this topic.
If a man can think he's a woman, then why can't he think he's a dog? Aren't they both equally outrageous?Quote:
No doctor I know of concedes to whatever a patient wants without a comprehensive verification process so your answer is NO, and WG and I already pointed that out. Did you miss it?
Maybe to you, but that would be up to a therapist to decide wouldn't it?
I changed my mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
You need to meet a few transgender individuals. Did you read any of the links I posted? No?Quote:
If a man can think he's a woman, then why can't he think he's a dog? Aren't they both equally outrageous?
My apologies, WG. My "yes" comment was rude.
I need to meet some mentally ill people?
Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
You need to meet and honestly talk with intersex people whose mothers were given DES during the pregnancy. That would be a good start.Quote:
I need to meet some mentally ill people?
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:15 AM. |