Ask Me Help Desk - The war on women

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

And again, my daughter asked to be abused for years? What the hell are you people not getting here?

I get what you are saying. Empathy goes a long way, and we all would have been hurt by such an experience. Calm down guy, you are hardly the first father to be devastated by the mistakes of a child, and I have much empathy for you. I get that, completely, but please expand your empathy to the many other victims and feel their pain and help them with their choices, and recognize their need to heal as well. Not subject them to more abuse, and being victimized in the name of helping them.

Love and support cannot come in the form of control. Nor guided by FEAR, or guilt.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma
It's no ones fault but the perp's but we can't equal domestic abuse to rape.

Sure you can, as often domestic abuse is facillitated by sex without consent. It's a control tool by the perpetrators that blurrs the lines of love, and bad behavior.

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Originally Posted by Magpie95

Well, unless as part of the domestic abuse, the daughter was raped by her husband. You can still be raped by your spouse.

Agreed.

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Originally Posted by Magpie95

No one said she deserved it. Its just not the topic of the thread.

Since it was ex who started this and asked what I would say (I am the Steve he's talking about), you'll just have to deal the direction I took it. Again, the guy said "no, no, no" he wasn't equating having a child out of wedlock with rape, but speaking as a father it was similar.

I thought it was pretty simple, as a dad he feels someone violated his daughter... I can relate.

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I can't imagine what you are going through. But you initially didn't mention the abuse.

I'm sorry, I thought "I'm sure dad felt violated, just as I feel violated by the scumbag that gave my daughter HIV" was explanatory enough.

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Yes, that is a big problem. Not what we were discussing, but a huge problem that again involves violence upon women. If your daughter was pregnant due to this domestic violence, I would support her right to decide what to do about it.

So ol' scumbag, who's controlling her in every other area of her life doesn't want the kid. She doesn't want to abort it because it's a child, maybe something good can come out of this otherwise hell on earth. Now what?

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As for HIV, it's a separate issue. Albeit, terrible still.
You are obivously too angry to think clearly, if you think anyone on here has suggested she deserved it!

BS, you, Wondergirl and ex implied she deserved it because of her "assumed" willingness. Only now are you backtracking. I think plenty clearly.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

It's no ones fault but the perp's but we can't equal domestic abuse to rape.

Ask the victim.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

BS, you, Wondergirl and ex implied she deserved it because of her "assumed" willingness. Only now are you backtracking. I think plenty clearly.

No, I never thought she deserved it, but wondered why she felt like she did and put up with it.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I'm sorry, I thought "I'm sure dad felt violated, just as I feel violated by the scumbag that gave my daughter HIV" was explanatory enough.

Well no, since one sexual session could get one infected.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

I get what you are saying. Empathy goes a long way, and we all would have been hurt by such an experience. Calm down guy, you are hardly the first father to be devastated by the mistakes of a child, and I have much empathy for you.

Thank you, and that's all I was saying about this other guy, I know how he feels as a dad. He's not waging a war on women, he said as a father it hurts.

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I get that, completely, but please expand your empathy to the many other victims and feel their pain and help them with their choices, and recognize their need to heal as well. Not subject them to more abuse, and being victimized in the name of helping them.

Come on Tal, part of the reason I even post about my daughter is to show I've been there, done that. Of course I have empathy for others, do you think we condemn women for having abortions? Do you really think we don't care about what women are going through?

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Love and support cannot come in the form of control. Nor guided by FEAR, or guilt.

Yep, so stop this phony war on women narrative.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

do you think we condemn women for having abortions?

Why don't you? They are the ones you should be targeting.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I'm sorry, I thought "I'm sure dad felt violated, [B][I]just as I feel violated by the scumbag that gave my daughter HIV[B][I]" was explanatory enough.

Not really. I didn't know how she had gotten HIV. Just that it was from a scumbag. I wouldn't have assumed it was domestic violence.

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So ol' scumbag, who's controlling her in every other area of her life doesn't want the kid. She doesn't want to abort it because it's a child, maybe something good can come out of this otherwise hell on earth. Now what?

Sure. If that is her choice. I support that. I am sure it would be difficult no matter what she decided. The point is, it would be her choice to do so.

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BS, you, Wondergirl and ex implied she deserved it because of her "assumed" willingness. Only now are you backtracking. I think plenty clearly.

Backtracking? No one said she deserved it. Everyone was asking if it was willing or not.

I realize this is a personal subject for you. I am just wondering if a politician has stated something that down plays the severity of domestic violence to the level of premarital sex? I don't recall one myself.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Why don't you? They are the ones you should be targeting.

Ah, so Tal says we should have empathy and you say we should be harassing them. You people are confusing.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Ah, so Tal says we should have empathy and you say we should be harassing them. You people are confusing.

Not confusing at all:
- the pro-choice people have empathy and so allow the women to make the choice
- the anti-abortion people for some reason target the policy/law, not the women who get the abortions

I ask: why aren't you targeting the actual people doing the act you want to ban?

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Ah, so Tal says we should have empathy and you say we should be harassing them. You people are confusing.

Ultimately it doesn't matter. Empathy for them or not, as long as the decision is theirs alone.

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Originally Posted by Magpie95

Ultimately it doesn't matter. Empathy for them or not, as long as the decision is theirs alone.

So the dad never has a say?

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QUOTE by speechlesstx;Thank you, and that's all I was saying about this other guy, I know how he feels as a dad. He's not waging a war on women, he said as a father it hurts.

He supports legislation to drastically curtail a woman's choice through proper education. I feel his pain but do not accept his judgment as to best help woman, or children.

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Come on Tal, part of the reason I even post about my daughter is to show I've been there, done that. Of course I have empathy for others, do you think we condemn women for having abortions? Do you really think we don't care about what women are going through?

So your empathy is what motivates you to take away their ability to chose through proper education? Can't agree with that one either since that's what a woman wants. You have empathy, but no ears, or refuse to listen. Educated females make better choices when they have more options and don't have to wait for social services to explain things when they can see a doctor. Or live in fear of abuse and subjigation. Or make a confusing time of their lives a legal hell!

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Yep, so stop this phony war on women narrative.

Its not phony when you make laws that have dire consequences on woman and children or subjugate them to what YOU think is right and proper without their input.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Not confusing at all:
- the pro-choice people have empathy and so allow the women to make the choice
- the anti-abortion people for some reason target the policy/law, not the women who get the abortions

I ask: why aren't you targeting the actual people doing the act you want to ban?

Being a legal decision targeting the law is obvious. Unborn children deserve legal protection and even Roe granted that to an extent. As for targeting women having an abortion, well that's just downright mean. I'm not mean.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

So the dad never has a say?

He has a say, but NOT the final decision. Sorry that's part of the helpless feeling of being a dad! You can feel, but not force.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

So the dad never has a say?

No, it isn't his body.

Obviously, good relationship tools would have us consider our partners' feelings and what they say with any subject that effects us. Frankly, couples don't discuss having kids enough before they have them in most cases. The government does not need to regulate relationships to this degree.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

He supports legislation to drastically curtail a woman's choice through proper education. I feel his pain but do not accept his judgment as to best help woman, or children.

He doesn't equate rape with an out of wedlock birth, which is the phony part of the narrative ex promoted.

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So your empathy is what motivates you to take away their ability to chose through proper education? Can't agree with that one either since that's what a woman wants.

What is "proper education?"

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You have empathy, but no ears, or refuse to listen. Educated females make better choices when they have more options and don't have to wait for social services to explain things when they can see a doctor. Or live in fear of abuse and subjigation. Or make a confusing time of their lives a legal hell!

Dude, who do you think is that ear after the abortion she came to regret? Who do you think helped her overcome the guilt and shame she silently endured for years, Planned Parenthood?

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Its not phony when you make laws that have dire consequences on woman and children or subjugate them to what YOU think is right and proper without their input.

I didn't want Obamacare forced on me, and he had plenty of our input. He chose to willfully ignore the will of the people.

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Originally Posted by Magpie95

No, it isn't his body.

It's his child.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I didn't want Obamacare forced on me,

How has it changed your life?

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

It's his child.

So, we regulate her body, so he can have his child? No way! I know it is unfair that women happen to be the ones that "get" to develop a fetus to a child. But it is what it is. Nature has it that way.. and nothing is going to change the fact, that all that is going on.. is going on in HER body and not his. The good and the bad... the labor pains, nausea, etc... also hers. The decision then, gets to be hers. Period. How she uses that choice is up to her own value system and what she can live with or not. I Know plent of women who have had them because their boyfriends demanded it. I think this is equally wrong. If they wanted to have the child, they should have.

So, if she is pregnant through domestic violence (to use your example), you would force her to term with regulation? Against her will. Force her to have a child she doesn't want in the face of trauma? Cruel.

What you will have sir, is back alley abortions again.

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Originally Posted by Magpie95

So, we regulate her body, so he can have his child? No way! I know it is unfair that women happen to be the ones that "get" to develop a fetus to a child. But it is what it is. Nature has it that way.. and nothing is going to change the fact, that all that is going on.. is going on in HER body and not his. The good and the bad... the labor pains, nausea, etc... also hers. The decision then, gets to be hers. Period. How she uses that choice is up to her own value system and what she can live with or not. I Know plent of women who have had them because their boyfriends demanded it. I think this is equally wrong. If they wanted to have the child, they should have.

So the baby has no choice and the dad - no matter how much she may have done to persuade him to have another kid - has no choice. Got it.

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So, if she is pregnant through domestic violence (to use your example), you would force her to term with regulation? Against her will. Force her to have a child she doesn't want in the face of trauma? Cruel.

I never said I would force anyone to do such a thing.

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What you will have sir, is back alley abortions again.

Oh please, abortion is never going to be illegal in this country, that's just an attempt to end the debate with an old leftist cliché. Yawwwnnn.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Oh please, abortion is never going to be illegal in this country, that's just an attempt to end the debate with an old leftist cliche.

Really?
"Romney does not oppose abortion in cases of rape and incest or if it will save the mother's life, while Ryan does oppose abortion in cases of rape and incest."
So what does that mean about any other instances of abortions?

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QUOTE by speechlesstx;
He doesn't equate rape with an out of wedlock birth, which is the phony part of the narrative ex promoted.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/08/pa-senate-candidate-backs-off-unplanned-pregnancy-rape-comparison/

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Faced with a question about fellow Republican Senate candidate Todd Akin’s inflammatory remarks about “legitimate rape,” Pennsylvania’s Tom Smith today likened his own daughter’s out-of-wedlock pregnancy to conception through rape.

Smith quickly backed off the statement, The (Harrisburg) Patriot-News reported, when pressed by reporters about whether he meant to conflate the two.

“No, no, no,” Smith said, before seeming to qualify his defense: “Put yourself in a father’s position,” he said. “Yes, I mean it is similar.”

No they are NOT!!!!!

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What is "proper education?"

The consequences of unprotected sex, and the procedure to not get pregnant. How/when to use an HPT, and having a family doctor for regular check ups, and have procedures available to prevent pregnancy, not just with contraceptives.*

*See my posts about a routine D&C.

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Dude, who do you think is that ear after the abortion she came to regret? Who do you think helped her overcome the guilt and shame she silently endured for years, Planned Parenthood?

PP does counsel females and gives them referals to other professionals. Yeah some need more help, love, and support and guidance than others, and it should be done by a professional,not some right wing religious organization. Even you can see that, and what of the ones whomake choices and have NO REGRETS about their decision?

Are they forced to seek counceling too?

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I didn't want Obamacare forced on me, and he had plenty of our input. He chose to willfully ignore the will of the people.

Then don't take the tax credit,and don't change doctors. Pay what your insurance company says to pay. And help your cherished granny pay for her medicine when she falls into the donut hole. YOU have not had anything forced on YOU! And the American people like the benefits THEY got from ACA/Obamacare better than they do the vouchers you guys are pushing. I like my insurance (most times,LOL),
So I stay.

You don't speak for all Americans, just those that think like you. Stop pretending you do!

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Originally Posted by talaniman

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/08/pa-senate-candidate-backs-off-unplanned-pregnancy-rape-comparison/

No they are NOT!!!!!

Um, we've more than covered that.

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PP does counsel females and gives them referals to other professionals. Yeah some need more help, love, and support and guidance than others, and it should be done by a professional,not some right wing religious organization. Even you can see that, and what of the ones whomake choices and have NO REGRETS about their decision?

Are they forced to seek counceling too?

I'm not forcing anything on anyone.

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Then don't take the tax credit,and don't change doctors. Pay what your insurance company says to pay. And help your cherished granny pay for her medicine when she falls into the donut hole. YOU have not had anything forced on YOU! And the American people like the benefits THEY got from ACA/Obamacare better than they do the vouchers you guys are pushing. I like my insurance (most times,LOL),
So I stay.

So I guess MANDATE means something different to you?

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You don't speak for all Americans, just those that think like you. Stop pretending you do!

Stop pretending that I'm trying to. I keep thinking mistakenly that we're just having a discussion only to learn I'm speaking for everyone and forcing my will on people. Did I force you to come here or draft Isaac Redman?

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

So the baby has no choice and the dad - no matter how much she may have done to persuade him to have another kid - has no choice. Got it.

Good. Im glad we can see eye to eye. Although, babies have rights.. they have been born.

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Oh please, abortion is never going to be illegal in this country, that's just an attempt to end the debate with an old leftist cliché. Yawwwnnn.

Awesome. I got your word on that?

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QUOTE by speechlesstx;
Um, we've more than covered that.

To your satisfaction not mine, sorry but he said what he said,and sympathy or not he would pass an anti abortion billin a second and deprive others of their educated choice. Thats not fair using his position of power to stroke his own guilt, or whatever his motives!

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I'm not forcing anything on anyone.

No but you give permisssion by voting for those that will force others to obey their draconian laws.

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So I guess MANDATE means something different to you?

Doesn't affect me, or YOU we are responsible by buying insurance. The mandate is only for those that are NOT responsible for their own health,and pass the COSTS onto us. You knew that, and like your fellow dissenters have twisted it to make it about YOUR rights.

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Stop pretending that I'm trying to. I keep thinking mistakenly that we're just having a discussion only to learn I'm speaking for everyone and forcing my will on people.

I never take it personal, I just have strong opinions and a proclivity to express them, as do you. I know that sometimes others don't agree. That's not my problem.

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Did I force you to come here or draft Isaac Redman?

I never shy away from debate or discussion, but have been known to screw up some draft picks. SUE me or make a trade.

Ball in your court. (I know I will never hear the end of it!! )

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Originally Posted by Magpie95

Good. Im glad we can see eye to eye. Although, babies have rights.. they have been born.

So women are no longer "with child," she's not carrying offspring in her womb, it's not actually alive, it's just an unviable tissue mass.

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Awesome. I got your word on that?

Do you really believe it will ever be outlawed again? I don't see that happening.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

I never shy away from debate or discussion, but have been known to screw up some draft picks. SUE me or make a trade.

Ball in your court. (I know I will never hear the end of it!!!!)

Why trade? Bernard Scott is available.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

So women are no longer "with child," she's not carrying offspring in her womb, it's not actually alive, it's just an unviable tissue mass.

Woman with child is just an expression. It comes from a history of our language and a society's habit of calling a fetus a baby. A woman who is choosing to have a child and caresses her belly and refers to it as a baby, yes I understand. She has decided to have a baby. She is already preparing to rear a child, be a mother and has already begun bonding with the life growing inside her. Yes, a fetus, an embryo and a zygote are alive. Who said it is not? So is sperm. So are the squash in my garden. I think what you are implying by "alive" is a person. I don't want to put words in your mouth but if that is what you mean, the point that we become a person has never been defined by science. What it means to even be a person can be debated for that matter.

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Do you really believe it will ever be outlawed again? I don't see that happening.

Yes, I think it could be. Probably not out right. It will begin by restrictions and increase. For example, here in Texas they passed a law requiring a sonogram and playing of the fetal heart beat before an abortion is performed unless it is due to rape, incest, or fetal abnormality. It's a slippery slope. Gov. Rick Perry even tried making it a requirement that all girls get the HPV vaccination. The government should keep its hands out of my uterus. And be grateful for all the women who lovingly and willingly bring children into the world. What good does it do anyone to force someone to have a child they do not want? It's stupid and arrogant at best and oppressive at worst.

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Originally Posted by Magpie95

Woman with child is just an expression. It comes from a history of our language and a society's habit of calling a fetus a baby.

That's because it is a child.

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A woman who is choosing to have a child and caresses her belly and refers to it as a baby, yes I understand. She has decided to have a baby. She is already preparing to rear a child, be a mother and has already begun bonding with the life growing inside her.

And all too often they regret aborting their child because they know it's a child. I've witnessed this personally you know, I've lived it.

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Yes, a fetus, an embryo and a zygote are alive. Who said it is not? So is sperm. So are the squash in my garden. I think what you are implying by "alive" is a person. I don't want to put words in your mouth but if that is what you mean, the point that we become a person has never been defined by science. What it means to even be a person can be debated for that matter.

And that's the difference between you and I, I would rather err on the side of life.

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Yes, I think it could be. Probably not out right. It will begin by restrictions and increase. For example, here in Texas they passed a law requiring a sonogram and playing of the fetal heart beat before an abortion is performed unless it is due to rape, incest, or fetal abnormality.

I'm in Texas.

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It's a slippery slope.

Oh please, you don't buy that cliché from our side, I don't buy it from yours.

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Gov. Rick Perry even tried making it a requirement that all girls get the HPV vaccination.

Perry's an idiot.

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The government should keep its hands out of my uterus. And be grateful for all the women who lovingly and willingly bring children into the world. What good does it do anyone to force someone to have a child they do not want? It's stupid and arrogant at best and oppressive at worst.

And that's the myth that we want them to have the baby then leave them to fend for themselves. Simply untrue.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

That's because it is a child.

No, expressions don't make it so. That's silly. Ladies at work call me sister, doesn't mean I am.

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And all too often they regret aborting their child because they know it's a child. I've witnessed this personally you know, I've lived it.

Of course. That is why it's an important decision and they should be educated well. In the end, they bare the consequences of their decision. I've had one. I have never regretted it. Nor, do I think of it as a child. I know several women that have had one and not one that has regretted it. There are stories at every spectrum. Wouldn't it be nice if the government could just outlaw regret in every area of our lives?

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And that's the difference between you and I, I would rather err on the side of life.

Agreed. I err on the side of women's rights. There is no argument regarding if she is a person or not.

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I'm in Texas.

And?

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Oh please, you don't buy that cliché from our side, I don't buy it from yours.

At the very least, they are already restricting them in many states. Whatever you want to call it.

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Perry's an idiot.

Agreed!

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And that's the myth that we want them to have the baby then leave them to fend for themselves. Simply untrue.

What's the solution?
And you can't do anything for the physical part of carrying the child and delivering it. She just has to go through with it, regardless? She has no control over her own body?

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Originally Posted by Magpie95

No, expressions don't make it so. That's silly. Ladies at work call me sister, doesn't mean I am.

If nature takes it's course it's a child. That's not an expression, it's fact.

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Of course. That is why it's an important decision and they should be educated well. In the end, they bare the consequences of their decision. I've had one. I have never regretted it. Nor, do I think of it as a child. I know several women that have had one and not one that has regretted it. There are stories at every spectrum. Wouldn't it be nice if the government could just outlaw regret in every area of our lives?

Nope, regret is not subject to legislation. The problem, and I believe I asked this of Tal, is what is education? Your side says it isn't a child, it's just a choice you make so no big deal. I say it's human life, and it's a very big deal. I do not ever want to take the chance that I've encouraged taking an innocent life that had no choice. The fetus/baby or whatever you want to call it doesn't deserve for someone to choose whether it should live or die, it's the innocent bystander in all of this.

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Agreed. I err on the side of women's rights. There is no argument regarding if she is a person or not.

So how often is a woman's life at stake in a pregnancy?

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And?

And I'm quite aware of what happens here.

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At the very least, they are already restricting them in many states. Whatever you want to call it.

The court justified restrictions in Roe v Wade at viability, what restrictions are OK with you?

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What's the solution?
And you can't do anything for the physical part of carrying the child and delivering it. She just has to go through with it, regardless? She has no control over her own body?

She can say no, she can use contraceptives, she can abstain. Are those not choices? Are women so stupid as to not know what happens if you have intercourse? I think that in most cases they aren't,and abortion for convenience sake is just an excuse for making a bad choice. The child shouldn't pay the price for that bad choice.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

If nature takes it's course it's a child. That's not an expression, it's fact.

Exactly, once nature has taken its course.

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Nope, regret is not subject to legislation. The problem, and I believe I asked this of Tal, is what is education? Your side says it isn't a child, it's just a choice you make so no big deal. I say it's human life, and it's a very big deal. I do not ever want to take the chance that I've encouraged taking an innocent life that had no choice. The fetus/baby or whatever you want to call it doesn't deserve for someone to choose whether it should live or die, it's the innocent bystander in all of this.

It's the potiental of being a child. And that is where our sides come to a head. Regardless, if you have to legislate a person's body in order to get to another "life", the means does not justify the end.

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So how often is a woman's life at stake in a pregnancy?

What percentage would make a difference to you?

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And I'm quite aware of what happens here.

You aren't the only one that reads this.

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The court justified restrictions in Roe v Wade at viability, what restrictions are OK with you?

Restrictions? On what a person does with their body? I can't think of an absolute.. perhaps using it as a bomb.

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She can say no, she can use contraceptives, she can abstain. Are those not choices? Are women so stupid as to not know what happens if you have intercourse? I think that in most cases they aren't,and abortion for convenience sake is just an excuse for making a bad choice. The child shouldn't pay the price for that bad choice.

I shutter to respond...
People have sex. Contraceptives fail. A man makes the same mistake and he walks a way if he wants. But don't give a woman a choice... typical.

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Originally Posted by Magpie95

I shutter to respond...
People have sex. Contraceptives fail. A man makes the same mistake and he walks a way if he wants. But don't give a woman a choice...typical.

Ok Ive had enough of this phrase. Do you care to explain it? In the real world a man can not just walk away.

Also any fertile woman that consents to sex is knowinly at risk for getting pregnant. Maybe its just the attitudes of today's times but being loose has its consequences. You keep preaching about responsibility etc. Why do you constantly run away? I find it amazing that you can't seem to find any women that have regreted having an abortion. In the ones that I have known that made the decision to do so have all regretted it in the long run.

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Originally Posted by califdadof3

Ok Ive had enough of this phrase. Do you care to explain it? In the real world a man can not just walk away.

Also any fertile woman that consents to sex is knowinly at risk for getting pregnant. Maybe its just the attitudes of todays times but being loose has its consequences. You keep preaching about responsibility etc. Why do you constantly run away? I find it amazing that you can't seem to find any women that have regreted having an abortion. In the ones that I have known that made the decision to do so have all regretted it in the long run.

I know 5 women who have had them. None of them regretted it. Two have children now. That's just from who I know. I'm not saying that no one regrets it.. I just don't know any. It doesn't matter to the point anyway. It was their choice. Running away from what? I'm not running from anything. Guys CAN walk away. I have friends with fatherless kids too. Guys don't get pregnant. End of story. Its not the guys body that gets stretched apart. Having sex can get you pregnant.. it can also get you an STD. Does the person deserve a kid they don't want? Do they deserve an STD? Stuff happens.. this is life. Grow up. Women aren't all mother theresa's... men aren't saints. And things happen, sometimes even when we have good intentions. Once again, arrogance is the only thing that makes a person think they have a right to an opinion of someone else's body.

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Originally Posted by Magpie95

I know 5 women who have had them. None of them regretted it. Two have children now. That's just from who I know. I'm not saying that no one regrets it..I just don't know any. It doesn't matter to the point anyway. It was their choice. Running away from what? I'm not running from anything. Guys CAN walk away. I have friends with fatherless kids too. Guys don't get pregnant. End of story. Its not the guys body that gets stretched apart. Having sex can get you pregnant..it can also get you an STD. Does the person deserve a kid they don't want? Do they deserve an STD? Stuff happens..this is life. Grow up. Women aren't all mother theresa's...men aren't saints. And things happen, sometimes even when we have good intentions. Once again, arrogance is the only thing that makes a person think they have a right to an opinion of someone else's body.

What you seem to fail at understanding is that you can't preach this all knowing attitude then pretend it doesn't exist. Since a woman knows what can happen then she is knowingly putting herself at risk. You don't have to be a Mother Tereasa because I have known many woman that had a timed pregnancy. As far as fatherless children (those would be from sperm donors) that again was a choice. If the dynamics of a relationship resulted in an absent father then I would have to question what was going on from all sides. Its not just men that are the bad guys. I have seen how women drive men away so they have something to complain about. In the end the children are the losers and its very sad to see.

This is an argument that goes nowhere, Women must exercise responsibility and so must men. This requires that they do not conceive an unwanted child. A lot less of the blame game here and a lot more reality is needed. Women are not unaware of the consequences of sex and therefore they have to show greater restraint since their consent is needed..
It is just not good enough that a few moments of pleasure will be followed by abortion and in most cases life long regret

Quote:

Originally Posted by paraclete

This is an argument that goes nowhere, Women must exercise responsibility and so must men.

So we need to teach our daughters how to find and secure love (and not through sex). And we need to teach our sons not to use the promise of love to get sex.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

So we need to teach our daughters how to find and secure love (and not through sex). And we need to teach our sons not to use the promise of love to get sex.

Something like that. There are still societies on this planet where sex outside of marriage is unacceptable. In these societies responsibility is taken seriously particularly to the family not to dishonour the family name. It is only in godless western societies there is this anything goes philosophy