Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
and what direct evidence might they have, were they in the Oval Office when Trump made the call?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
and what direct evidence might they have, were they in the Oval Office when Trump made the call?
These were some of the witnesses who were in the room with tRump and had direct knowledge of his decision to cut off aid to Ukraine in order to benefit himself.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
You are speculating on a very high order as concerns "in order to benefit himself." Your anti-Trump prejudice is showing though.Quote:
These were some of the witnesses who were in the room with tRump and had direct knowledge of his decision to cut off aid to Ukraine in order to benefit himself.
I do hope you are feeling better. Been praying for you.
It's already been reported that Bolton, Pompeo, and ESPER all told the dufus to free the money. All witnessed the dufus's actions to fire the anti corruption ambassador and replace her with his donor Sondland. WHY if corruption was his reason and the congress and DOD certified they were in compliance and he changed his mind after signing the bill. WHY would he do that without revealing the reason? Did he know something everybody else in government didn't know?
Placing the blame for 2016 on the Ukrainians is another mystery know one can answer and goes against the entire government assessment of the cyber incursion, including the Senate Report. Again where is he getting this stuff that only he knows about and nobody else? So smearing a campaign foe, and protecting the Russians is my conclusion which makes his asking for a favor from Ukraine on these matters a breach of trust and an abuse of power. No speculation to connect these dots but hearing testimony from the people the dems are asking for and have been blocked from testifying would sure end the wild speculation of EVERYBODY!
Won't even get into the stuff that Crazy Rudy is doing.
The whole issue is being avoided. Biden is corrupt, an influence peddler and the demonrats are going ape because their favourite son stands accused. poetic justice. and they cannot see it
Speculation. Rumor mill. "Your honor, we believe the defendant is guilty because, after all, there are three people out there who, we are convinced, would testify that he is." How far do you think that would get you?
That's not the argument though and you know it!
"Your honor the dufus thought he could extort the Ukraine into helping him get dirt on his political foes through his son, and worked to cover it up after being caught and has offered no reasonable argument for his actions. He broke the law trying to involve a foreign country in our election and aided and abetted the Russians in their continuing efforts to undermine our democracy with cyber incursions. We offer as evidence the actions, and testimony of Sondland ETC showing his deviation from normal government channels to facilitate this goal, not for the interest of the country but for the purpose of his own re election, which continued after an impeachment inquiry has began, and he obstructed the congress from it's constitutionally duty to investigate the incidents."
Maybe you should have read the Impound Act links and see if the dufus violated that law in some way before you stick to your claims of NO evidence, since, you think its perfectly OKAY to go around the policy and practice of the government just because he said so. As I said before though that ship has sailed and the senate is charged with making the rules for this trial and VOTE on them BEFORE we can even get started presenting the evidence so you may as well stop speculating about it until that hurdle is cleared. Yes senators will have to VOTE on whether certain witnesses are called to testify, or not.
Reversing course on a bill that the dufus signed is rather suspicious just on it's own, so if you want to speculate, why did he sign the bill in the first place?
You had me interested until your links were going to a music list or whatever it was.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
If I am the defense attorney, I am delighted. I get to stand up and say, "Your honor, you have just heard a host of unsubstantiated and unproven accusations. They are merely the opinion of the "we hate Trump" crowd." I ask that you dismiss the case due to lack of evidence.Quote:
"Your honor the dufus thought he could extort the Ukraine into helping him get dirt on his political foes through his son, and worked to cover it up after being caught and has offered no reasonable argument for his actions. He broke the law trying to involve a foreign country in our election and aided and abetted the Russians in their continuing efforts to undermine our democracy with cyber incursions. We offer as evidence the actions, and testimony of Sondland ETC showing his deviation from normal government channels to facilitate this goal, not for the interest of the country but for the purpose of his own re election, which continued after an impeachment inquiry has began, and he obstructed the congress from it's constitutionally duty to investigate the incidents."
As to the Impound Act, is that what the House has accused him of doing in the articles of Impeachment?
What?Quote:
You had me interested until your links were going to a music list or whatever it was.
We will see if that works or not Mr Defense Attorney, in due time. and the poster that I quoted was deleted by the site. There seem to be several examples under the charge of abuse of power to be cited, as there are under obstruction of congress. He certainly has shown a clear pattern for disregard to law and order and needs to be held accout and repubs share that blame that he was allowed to get this far.
Sort of like the wild dog terrorizing the neighborhood analogy I have used before, who is to blame the animal or owners of the animal?
Very true. In the meantime, I hope you have a great and productive 2020.Quote:
We will see if that works or not Mr Defense Attorney
You too, my friend as 2020 has started fairly wild. You could throw a dart at a map and find a hotspot that seems to get hotter by the minute. I wonder if the dufus has called his sweetheart Kim about that beautiful vase he promised? Or if we join China, Russia, and Iran on another joint military exercise since we couldn't make the last one?
Well it seems Trump has accepted the invitation to up the ante in Iraq, but it is a rerun of the American embassy event in Tehran so long ago. It seems the investment in "Iraqi Freedom" has turned sour, time to liquidate
Naw, the militias have pulled back for now but have you seen the emails just released unredacted between the DOD and OMB about holding up the funding?
https://www.justsecurity.org/67863/e...egal-concerns/
https://publicintegrity.org/national...-spending-law/
Yes so what? You and I know that whether Trump is guilty or not the jury is stacked so as Pilate said so long ago "what is truth".
The truth of this situation is whatever you want it to be
I ain't Pilate, and you ain't Paunchess(?), so let's get down to the facts as they are and that is the dufus broke the law and was confronted with it several times by several people in his government administration.
I have been thinking the same thing.Quote:
It seems the investment in "Iraqi Freedom" has turned sour, time to liquidate
Pontius? (Pilate's family name).Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Paunchous as in PAUNCHY as in fat or big belly. Darn humor font is on the blitz again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Can't believe anyone's hands are clean Tal when you have whistleblowers in action Tal you never know what you getQuote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
That's precisely why Clete that there is a lawful process for reporting and investigating and specific protections afforded by those that come forward. I take it you don't approve of such actions. You agree that any president can do as they please in the manner they see fit regardless of the rule of law?
When you are POTUS, the likes of Bolton, Pompeo, and ESPER don't "TELL YOU" nothing! POTUS doesn't take orders from them! They take orders from POTUS! We elected Trump to take decisions (not "make" decisions) and if the Economy is any indication, he is taking the right decisions! When the DOW reaches 30,000 you can rest assured that Trump's Reelection is all but guaranteed.
It is illegal to give an order that breaks the law and that's a pretty simple concept and that's what we want to know from the decision maker dufus. Pompeo, Bolton, Esper, and a few others I could name could answer those questions and the "GREAT" economy is no excuse for breaking the law. Another simple concept to understand.
He didn't break any law: Its the authority of the POTUS' override any decision he feels needs to reviewed further or even cancelled if that decision is not in the best interest of the United States Of America! The POTUS has the last word on all these matters: If he felt that the Ukraine funds were akin to pouring money into a sewer, it is his job to hold-up those funds until the situation could be further reviewed: SIMPLE CONCEPT!
Hate to say you're wrong, but you are in that since we have laws, policy, practice, and procedures to operate legally within then going outside those boundaries as set forth is illegal. I refer you to the Impound Act of 1974, or go back and read the commentary you missed in this thread. That's why we are having an IMPEACHMENT Trial because opinions no longer count for much.
All is mute if you think POTUS is above the law, in which case you should just say so.
Comes down to deciding what law you are talking about. Much of what we hear is public opinion, it may or may not be fact. Trump is impeached for some relatively minor acts, where does extrajudicial assassination of a foreign national stand, I wonder?
I don't think the articles of impeachment mention the Impound Act.Quote:
That's why we are having an IMPEACHMENT Trial because opinions no longer count for much.
I don't know about how minor you consider abuse of power or their underlying offenses, but high crimes and misdemeanors is what the Constitutions call for, but as has been pointed out before, even if he is NOT removed he still faces a suitable punishment don't you think?Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
If offing a foreign national leads to an escalation of hostilities or even a full blown war or a bunch of dead people, then no telling how that plays with the public. It's not like we were at peace in the ME in the first place.
It will fall under abuse of power, along with a few other things.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
That's a big part of the problem. When you have an accusation like "abuse of power", it is so vague that it could include anything. It's like being charged with "criminal activity" or "being a bad person" in a court of law. That would never work in a courtroom, and it should never be used for impeachment.Quote:
It will fall under abuse of power, along with a few other things.
Tal, if Biden is lying, does that get you as upset as Trump lying?
"DUBUQUE, Iowa -- Joe Biden is the only 2020 presidential candidate who was in the White House Situation Room as Navy SEALs descended on Usama bin Laden’s Pakistan compound in 2011.
But a critical detail in his story about that mission has changed in the last eight years.
During a brief exchange with Fox News on Friday, the former vice president was presented with a hypothetical situation similar to the one President Trump says he faced before ordering an airstrike to kill Iranian Gen. Qassem Soleimani.
“As commander in chief, if you were ever handed a piece of intelligence that said you could stop an imminent attack on Americans -- but you have to use an airstrike to take out a terrorist leader -- would you pull the trigger?” Fox News asked Biden.
“Well we did - the guy’s name was Usama bin Laden,” Biden replied.
“Didn’t you tell President Obama not to go after bin Laden that day?” Fox News followed up.
“No, I didn’t,” Biden said.
That’s not the story Biden told almost eight years ago during a retreat in Maryland for congressional Democrats, as he described a tense 2011 strategy session ahead of the raid.
“Mr. President, my suggestion is, don’t go -- we have to do two more things to see if he’s there,” Biden had said in January 2012 of the strategy session."
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bid...bin-laden-raid
That may be true but in a court of law the dems will be charged with a presentation of evidence that makes that abuse of power case. Much of this case is not public, but we see enough to know where they are going with this, and the danger for the dufus is that what the public hasn't seen becomes PUBLIC. I have been consistent with watching the court rulings so far which the public has so far shown little concerns about, but those rulings are CRUCIAL to what the public will see, such as the unredacted portions of the grand jury proceedings of the Mueller Report, and the unredacted just released emails between DOD and OMB, damming on their own as evidence of intentional disregard for the law, and pointing to one person the dufus. Why is that important? He gave orders to subordinates to break the law, and if they did NOT, they were replaced by people that would do as ordered.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
That alone makes the House hearings even more important because they all testified to pretty much the same actions, removing people to gain an ILLEGAL objective. There is no need to have the Ukrainians cut their own throats and admit to anything at this point. I know people have made a big deal of the facts they have said they didn't feel pressured but what you admit that you would be? Such an admission would sure go over just great I'm sure with your own people who elected you wouldn't it.
In any event I didn't put abuse of power in the constitution but I suspect it was vague to cover a whole lot of things unsavory on purpose. Lol if they had a specific list and POTUS committed something not on the list then it's not an abuse is it? That sort of defeats the purpose doesn't it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
The Biden statement is an old story since Hillary used that same attack line on 2013. Okay he lied, you got him, so that makes it Dufus 15,000 lies, Biden 2, if I count the Ukraine confession tape.
I don't get mad about what any politician says or does, I just count it, and weigh it against the outcome or significance, but I don't mind admitting the dufus lies irk me more than any other politician I have ever seen in my life by far. Did that answer your question?
So the man irks you and you maintain the rage. I think you should just get used to it and try to find some positives.
No rage involved Clete, but the continuous LIES and dramado bring out some good rants don't they? No one has to accept it, but you do have to deal with it positively for your own good I would think, to thrive and survive. LOL, so far I have survived all the idiots and whatever they have done and God willing I will survive the dufus and the rest of his ilk. That doesn't mean I have to be quiet about it does it, or go along with it either?
the world is packed with such idiots Tal, "know it alls" who think they only have to speak and it is done. I know only one person for whom that is effective and Trump ain't it, in fact, no politician is it, no high ranking military is it. You have them there, we have them here, they are everywhere and they cause troubleQuote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Okay I confess, I have nothing else to do but fight, fart and raise a ruckus. I have no friends except YOU, and WG and JL wants me to visit him for coffee and see his bat collection up close and personal. There you happy for exposing me?
Blows your mind doesn't it, nothing like you figured.
Fully understood, would like to come over for coffee sometime. Tal, I too am old with many years behind me. As you know I have many opinions, and what I see in the world I don't like. Every solution seems to be a camel, which as you know is a horse designed by a committee, very functional in only a few placesQuote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Sadly, I have no bat collection, but you are welcome for coffee at any time. For that matter, we'll fix you dinner!Quote:
Okay I confess, I have nothing else to do but fight, fart and raise a ruckus. I have no friends except YOU, and WG and JL wants me to visit him for coffee and see his bat collection up close and personal. There you happy for exposing me?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I have a very nice war club and Maori Patu also known as a Mere, does that qualify? let's have a dinner party
No secret I am well past my physical prime with some issues there, and can I honestly say the mind is clear and sharp as yesteryears? Probably not, and that may keep me stuck in my ways a bit, and resentful as I see youth being wasted on the young. Seems like just yesterday I was telling the old duffs to get out of the way and take their old ways with them, and now I'll be darned if they aren't telling me the same thing, sometimes gently, sometimes not.
Coffee and dinner is about all I can do folks, then call it a day because besides opinions, that's all I got. Can't even chunk rocks like I use too, without taking a break, and that involves drooling and snoring in the middle of the freaking day! Darn grandkids just take off my glasses and go about their business. I guess everything sounds like a rant or a beetch session from me since I sure can't do a darn thing about it. The truth is all I got is beetchin'.
So yeah coffee sounds good.
Kind of ironic ain't it? 66 years have gone by in a blinding hurry. I will say that in all things, the Gospel was my great benefit and my hope for the future.Quote:
I see youth being wasted on the young. Seems like just yesterday I was telling the old duffs to get out of the way and take their old ways with them, and now I'll be darned if they aren't telling me the same thing, sometimes gently, sometimes not.
World is a better place without the Iranian terrorist mastermind in it. How in the name of GOD anyone, anybody in the U.S. or Europe or any other civilized country in this world can turn the death of a terrorist, who was responsible for thousands upon thousands of deaths all around the globe, into a bad thing just to try and use it as a political football and impugn the POTUS is entire wrongheaded: OUR POTUS DOES NOT NEED TO ASK A DAMN SOUL IF HE CAN DEFEND THE U.S. FROM A TERRORIST! He killed the scumbag, now you want to join the ranks of the mayor of London and memorialize his dead arse? What in the name of hell is wrong with you?
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