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A terrorist Memorial will revitalize it how? Home base for terrorists to plan more future "revitalizations" projects. Like at the site of the Empire State building? Or the CHrysler Building? How about muslim revitalization of Grand Central Station. THey think THOSE are prime places for a Mosque too for all the Muslim residents of Central Park.
Reminds me of my neighborhood that used to be a quiet street lined with trees and solid, two- or three-bedroom homes on large lots. Then the teardowns began back about ten years ago. McMansions were built, and occupants ended up with postage-stamp-sized yards. The beautiful park-like corner lot next door to me was divided into three lots. (Special permission had to be gotten from the village.) The neighbor children now beg to play in my huge back yard, since they have none. (I have to say no for liability's sake.) I'm so glad I didn't sell the builder a twenty-five foot piece of my property; otherwise, the neighbors' driveway basketball games would be right outside my bedroom window.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Do I like this? No. But the builder followed all the rules and had a right to subdivide and build like he did.
Clearly you have not visited lower Manhattan recently . Despite the hammering that Wall Street has taken in recent years the area is hardly what you would call derelict.Actually the WTC site had become a tourist destination . It is a short walk from there to many other places in the area a tourist might want to see. You can easily spend a long weekend just in the lower Manhattan area and still not see all there is to offer .Quote:
So? This will revitalize a broken, even derelict, area of Manhattan
I'm sure you will be welcomed warmly when you go there to visit and check up on them. Be sure to ask for some baklava with your coffee.Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
So all the buildings damaged on 9/11 have been repaired and are inhabited now? Oh, and what has been built on Ground Zero during the past nine years?Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Personally... I hate New York City. In more ways than one. I hate anyplace that requires a drive of several miles to see more than a square yard of grass. And particularly anyplace where there is more concrete than trees, flowers and grass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
It isn't natural for people to cram together that tightly.
And yet---no one has answered the question about what "community" is using the 6 Christian churches in this "commercial and not residential" area around Ground Zero.
Community is NOT just where people LIVE, you know.
What this comes down to is that I'm not willing to give up freedoms for safety. None of you should be willing to do so, either.
You are talking about the WTC's and a couple adjacent buildings .But you called the couple of blocks a "derelict area" .Quote:
So all the buildings damaged on 9/11 have been repaired and are inhabited now? Oh, and what has been built on Ground Zero during the past nine years?
There are hundreds of construction jobs ongoing at any given time in Manhattan ,even in this economic climate. The area around the WTC is largely back in business. The Liberty Tower and memorial are finally under construction . I fail to see where building the mosque would have any positive or negative impact on the economy of lower Manhattan.
Now if you really wanted a positive economic impact on the area ;cut Capital Gains taxes to a level the rest of the Western world enjoys. Only Japan is more punitive on businesses.
And as I have asked ExCon... exactly where in the constitution are Muslims alone granted the right to do anything they want, anywhere they want without being subject to anything to stop them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
There is no constitutional right to build anything you want, anywhere you want. Otherwise every Zoning, local ordanence, Homeowners association and any law or regualtion attached to structures in the country would have been declared unconstitutional... because any and every one can prevent you from exercising this "Right" that apparently only the Muslims have. Since nobody else has it.
I can't build a garage in my back yard without zoneing approval... town approval. Approval of all my surrounding neighers (neighborhood review), no homeowners associtation where I live, not to mention permits, etc... if it was my RIGHT to do what I want on my property. And if it totals more than 24% coverage of my property... I'm sh*t out of luck because it WILL be refused. And Constitutional rights can't be trumped by Federal much less state or local ordinaces.
They aren't. They are following the same rules Christians must follow.Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
Huh? What about my Italian neighbors in their McMansion that now overshadows my one-story house and blocks my view of the setting sun? This was mostly a German and Polish block before they moved on to it. How dare they! And they can look down into my house from their second story windows. Now I got to pull down my shades. Geez.Quote:
There is no constitutional right to build anything you want, anywhere you want. Otherwise every Zoning, local ordanence, Homeowners association and any law or regualtion attached to structures in the country would have been declared unconstitutional... because any and every one can prevent you from exercising this "Right" that apparently only the Muslims have. Since nobody else has it.
and your remedy before they were built was to petition the town ,ask for zoning changes ,petition with your neighbors to prevent it ,threaten to boycott any company involved in the construction (libs utilize boycotts often as I recall).. any number of steps that would've been a legitimate expression of your 1st amendment rights.
Exercising your rights would not mean by extension that you were denying the owner their rights.
The argument that Excon is making on this op is what Howard Dean correctly called "absolutism" .
They won; our neighborhood lost.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Are you even really a christian... seriously. YOu know darn well Christians have to follow the same laws every other American has to follow... Churches included, but you are arguing Muslims are somehow exempt and have special rights the rest of us don't have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Hey... about the McMansion thing... thank your local elected officials. They allowed it to be buiilt They didn't have to. They could have legally rejected the permits... and if it was built without permits can have it torn down at the owners expense. Happens around here every couple years.
I can understand your point on the McMansion. We have codes and laws that apply to what can be built and how big in existing neighborhoods. They are there to Prevent the very thing you describe.
I suggest getting together with your neighbors and making it an issue long before the next election in your area. It can be stopped.
Again.. a grass roots campaign before the next election can put an end to that in the future if you can get enough people on board. Under the table bribes won't help an official that out of his job get anything done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Those are elected positions in most places... actions will effect elections. No politition is ENTITLED to a job for life. Contrary to what many believe.
Where did I argue Muslims are exempt?Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
The slowdown in the economy stopped the teardowns, and the McMansion phase seems to be over now that conspicuous consumption isn't a priority.Quote:
I suggest getting together with your neighbors and making it an issue long before the next election in your area. It can be stopped.
Sorry about that WG . I had a different experience after a multi-year battle. I ultimately won by becoming politically active and help replace the board at the polls .
Howard Dean is spending his day defending his comments from irate former relativists from his side.
Here are his latest comments :
Quote:
Here is my case.
First, no one who understands the American Constitution can reasonably doubt the right of the builders to build.
Secondly, the building site is very close to the site of a violent tragedy that seared the soul of every American including Muslim Americans.
Thirdly, the builders of the proposed Islamic Center say they want to help heal the nation and there is a preponderance of evidence that that is true, based not least on the fact that the last administration viewed the leadership of this group as a. pro American bridge to the Muslim world.
Fourth, there are many Americans, about 65 or 70 percent, including many family members of the victims, who have very strong emotional resistance to building on this site. Some of them may have other feelings such as hate, fear, etc. but the vast majority of these people are not right wing hate mongers.
My argument is simple. This Center may be intended as a bridge or a healing gesture but it will not be perceived that way unless a dialogue with a real attempt to understand each other happens. That means the builders have to be willing to go beyond what is their right and be willing to talk about feelings whether the feelings are "justified" or not. No doubt the Republic will survive if this center is built on its current site or not. But I think this is a missed opportunity to try to have an open discussion about why this is a big deal because it is a big deal to a lot of Americans who are not just right wing politicians pushing the hate button again. I think those people need to be heard respectfully whether they are right or whether they are wrong.
This has nothing to do with the right to build and unlike same sex marriage or the civil rights movement it is not about equal protection under the law. The rights of the builders are not in dispute. This is about ending the poisonous atmosphere engendered by fear and hate, and in order to do that there has to be genuine listening, hearing and willingness to compromise on both sides I personally believe that there are other possible solutions that could result from such a process and that a genuine exploration of those possibilities is something we ought to try.
Not to worry. We're on top of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
Well, arguing they have a right to that Mosque at that site basically is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
No Christian has a right to build a church at just any location they wish, simply because they want to.
Then now is a good time to get it codified into something perminant... before the money starts lining pockets again and they are less receptive. ANd eventually that will happen... sometime after the current idiot is replaced and the next guy fixes all the screwups of the last two years. And if THAT never happens then heaven help us all.
"at that site"??
Again... Islamic Tradition is to build Mosques at the site of victorious battles... has been their policy for over 1,300 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Islamic Terrorists crashed planes into the Trade center towers... they succeeded in bring them down... and it wasn't their first attempt.
Next a Radical Imam want to build a Mosque damn close to Ground Zero... with funding from unknown sources in the Middle ast where they were Cheering the terrorists that day. Not US muslims... Middle eastern anti-american muslims... only one possible reason, and none of them are either helpful to americans or endearing to the american public.
That's preciesely akin to the Japanese erecting a memorial outside the entrance to the USS ARizona Memorial in Pearl Harbor to the Japanese Pilots killed by Americans during that attack.
Or the Germans Erecting a memorial outside Auchwitz to honor the Nazi soldiers that died from diseases caught from the concentration camp prisoners.
But it's not at Ground Zero and won't even be able to be seen from Ground Zero.
Ummm where do you think they plan to build this... Long Island?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
At least a block away (maybe two blocks?) from Ground Zero, in the middle of the block, behind some other buildings that prevent it from viewing the actual site.
I haven't done a lot of research on this, but I knew that much.
Two blocks away and around a corner, from Vesey to Park Pl. -- and won't overshadow or even overlook Ground Zero.Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
Hello ladies:
You're not going to let him get away with making ALL Muslims guilty for a few. I certainly HOPE not, but that's what he's doing. I'd tell him he's full of it, but we broke up. Besides, I wouldn't know where to start or where to stop. He chooses his facts like his underwear.
excon
He doesn't appear to know where they are going to build it, so he certainly doesn't know WHO is going to build it.
It must be awful to live in such a scary world.
Well you think its halfway across town. You are aware THAT building they plan to tear down was damaged by the landing gear from one of the Planes that hit the tower AFTER they passed through the tower. That's pretty damn close to Ground zero. So before you get snippy, you can walk that distance in only a couple minutes and by that I mean about 3 minutes IF you don't have a red light, You can jog it in a hell of a lot less, its not a 5 minute cab ride with green lights and no traffic..Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
But clearly... with that snotty attitude, you clearly had ZERO connections ot those Terrorist acts... and probibly were not even any where near any of them.
Don't forget I was INSIDE the freaking Pentagon, and if it wasn't for a really odd bit of anxiety and impatience where I really wanted to get out of there... I would have still been there. So before you make any cocky comments about what its like to live in a scarey world... you had better think long and hard.
Maybe if you are ever a victim of a violent crime where you Seriously almost die at the hands of some idiots... THEN, and Only THEN will you have any place to make a crack like that without someone taking a serious offense at it.
And yeah... I'm being serious, I think that remark was really out of line. That's far beyond a debate... thats a personal jab at someone who was there... got any other smart comments to direct for people that got out of the Towers too? Since obviously anyone who was there that day and managed to walk away by sheer luck by your definition are being totally unreasonible for being upset at those terrorists and anyone who wants to erect a memorial to them.
Yeah I'm pis*ed off right now... in a VERY big way. And I don't get this way easy.
You know what... if you got robbed a gunpoint next week, how would YOU feel if I said get over it... that they were nowhere near killing you after all...
Bet you wouldn't think it was very nice.
I feel sick every time I see any article or anything about the Mosque being built near ground zero, but I'm always tempted to put my two cents in mainly because my family is Muslim.
Although I don't follow the religion, I know that all Muslims are not terrorists. It makes me sick to think that people would call my parents or my family terrorists. I think that people who are intolerant of all muslims are just close-minded. They don't know that America isn't the only country that has been attacked by terrorists. The Taliban has also killed people in their own countries. My family is Pakistani and are Ahmadi Muslims. Ahmadis and several other sects are persecuted in Pakistan and are not considered Islamic by some fundamentalists. Recently, one of the mosques in my parents' old hometown was shot down by terrorists and a lot of people including children were killed. Most of my family lives in America because of the fact that Ahmadis are persecuted in Pakistan. My uncle actually helped many families in Pakistan come to America in the 70s.
Anyway, the reason why I'm telling everyone about my family and their religion is to show how most muslims come to America to have a better life, not to kill Americans. How would it make you feel if you came to a country to get away from people that hated you for no reason and everyone in that new country still hated you? After 9/11 many people have become prejudiced against all Muslims. I was 10 when the attacks happened and the next day I when I went to school, my own teacher lectured about how all muslims are terrorists and bad people. Can you imagine how a kid would feel if you told them that everyone in their family is a terrorist? On top of that, after 9/11, people- including children threw rocks at our mosque in NYC.
Overall, I obviously think that the mosque should be built next to ground zero- even if people throw rocks at it, protest in front of it, and kill the people in it because it is the only way, people will be able to look back and relize that it was wrong for being intolerant.
I'm really ticked off at wondergirls personal attack... and I'm letting loose.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
You know what... screw you too, I suppose you contribute to the Terrorists. You know... too damn bad YOU weren't in the tower or the Pentagon... too bad one of YOUR faminly even wasn't... because in case you are totally unaware.. the Terrorists WERE Muslim... and while not ALL muslims were guilty of supporting them (YOUR comment NOT mine, and if you insist prove otherwise... I'm not a moderator and I can't edit my own threads after they lock)... a VERY high percentage were.
Believe any damn thing you want... but anyone who defends the terrorists as YOU are doing and attacking people who actually WERE there, unlike you really goes a long way to showing which side you are on. ANd you really don't care about the rights of real Americans... after all, you also think the entire population of latin America has a constitutional right to cross our borders illegally.
Clearly you don't live on the east coast so why should you care.
I really hope the next terrorist attack is on the Golden Gate Bridge, the Space needle and any damn thing else that passes as a landmark on the WEST Coast... maybe that is what it will take to get the lefties over there to grasp that the enemy is the terrorists and even more so the silent radical element that infests far too many Mosques around the world... not the republicans.
Anfd if that freaking Mosque is ever built... I am throwing a Bar-B-Que party in honor of whoever pulls it off burning it down.
Because It's a HUGE offense to the American population by the Muslims and latest pols show 73 percent of the American Public is against it. I'm far from being alone.
THe Muslims don't get it... fine. Let us build a HUGE Christian Cathedral in both Mecca AND Medina. Maybe that's something they can understand after all its our right.. lets see how far the Muslims allow that to go. Not this far I'll put good money on.
Hello again, smoothy:Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
Because you were there doesn't give you license to make up facts. You did. I called you on it. You didn't like it. Goodby.
excon
Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
Smoothy, if you think that not muslims are gulity of supporting terrorists, why would you assume that the muslims that want to build the mosque near ground zero are an offense to the American population? On top of that do you assume that that all of those Muslims aren't American.. I'm sure a lot of them are American.
I lived in that world for 45 years. I managed to find my way out finally.Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
So ALL Muslims are idiots and are worthy of your disrespect?Quote:
Maybe if you are ever a victim of a violent crime where you Seriously almost die at the hands of some idiots... THEN, and Only THEN will you have any place to make a crack like that without someone taking a serious offense at it.
That's not true.Quote:
anyone who wants to erect a memorial to them.
Bullsh1t... you pulled something out of your butt, prove it... link ot a thread where I have said that. Otherwise you are no different than Obama whoes entire life is a lie which is why nearly ALL of his records are being kept secret from the public.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Smoothy--Nope, I wasn't there.
I WAS in Seattle during the WTO riots, though--and during the lockdown at New Year's from 1999-2000 because of the terrorist threats to the Space Needle. I was living on the west coast when they caught a man coming in from Canada with a bomb, and when they started searching for his confederates.
No, not ALL Muslims are terrorists. Not even MOST of them are. A small percentage ARE--just like a small percentage of any OTHER religion are evil.
You will never see how holding an entire religion accountable for the actions of a few is making a Nazi of you. Your idea is to persecute and treat as secondary citizens ALL Muslims, even though there are quite a few Muslims who are American. How is that different from stopping Jews from having the same rights in 1930s Germany as other German citizens?
I don't care WHAT happened to you. You have a scary mind when it comes to Muslims, because you don't operate on FACTS--just on your beliefs that they're ALL to blame for 9/11.
I hope that they DO build the Mosque there, and that you someday get to visit it to see that your fears are false.
This is off-topic, but his records aren't being kept any more secret than your own are. The public doesn't have a right to see his personal records any more than the public has a right to see yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
Because #1... its a sybol of Islam very near to a major act of Islamic Terrorism. MOST americans view this as a VERY offensive action by Muslims with absolutely NO concern about the sensitivities and feeling of the entire American Nation, and an act of total Disrespect to this country and its people as a whoile. Most Americans DO feel that way... recent Polls in the last two days shows roughly 73% (with a small margin of error as no poll is 100% accurate) of the American public is very much against that Mosque.Quote:
Originally Posted by XOXOlove
Let me toss this out as an example. Say a ticked off Christian flew a plan into Mecca during the Pilgramage... kills a bunch of people... in a few years WE pay to build a HUGE Catholic Church near the site... how would Muslims view that. I bet you would have thousands blowing themselves up to take it down. Of course there would be a few Muslims that might be fine with a church there... but if they said it in public they would be persecuted in their own land.
Now that's hypothetical since CHristians aren't allowed in Mecca or Medina, much less allowed to build a church there... so much for repsect for other religions by Islam.
Actually in the case of a President the public does have a right to know. Otherwise using your logic the president could evade laws simply by refusing to comply. It's a different standard then your average citizen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
Do you not read any threads...Quote:
Originally Posted by XOXOlove
For the last 1,300 years Islam Doctrine has mandated they build a Mosque on the prime site of any and every conquest over Jews or Christians... I know its inconvienient to the left, but History has proven that time and time again... examples were given earlier in this thread by someone else.
Well you clearly have been living a sheltered life, because your lack of comprehension of having someone try to kill you and almost succede is very telling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Pray tell, to you think rape victims had it coming and the rapist simply misunderstood her actions as an advance?
Then exactly why do you think I should forget that brainwashed Islamic Zealots tried to kill me and I'm walking the earth today over what is nothing more than a very strange premonition of sorts. Because I've never before or to this day bailed out on a customer before they sorted out a problem... ONLY that one day I HAD to get out of there. Didn't feel like something bad was going to happen, just an overwhelming desire to get out of there and go to my office nearby.
You saw it on TV... its NOT the same thing at all, and anyone that got out of the Towers that day or were nearby will tell you the same thing.
You know and oddly enough nobody from my employer was in there that morning which was very odd since we had a LOT of customers in there and there was always several people in there on any given day.
I am not building a Church in Mecca or Medina... do you think THAT would be well received my most muslims? I think not.
Do I think all muslims are bad? No... but let me tell you I believe most do harbor anti American and anti Christian as well as anti Jewish sentiments... I also do not associate with or trust any Mslim that wears a Head Scarf or wears a Burqa. Because my Muslim friends who were Afghan Born and immigrated and also devout... say there is nothing that directs them to wear those coverings, and I consider them among my best friends. It's the foolish rants of the many misguided religious leaders of that faith that say you have to cover your hair... or the real whackos that call for burqas. And Besides... this is America... we don't like masks or people hiding behind things... people covering themselves up from view are hiding something. What that stuff, move to Saudi Arabia or Iran where nobody has rights.
Ref:Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
Destruction of Hindu Temples by Aurangzeb
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