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Originally Posted by talaniman

The rights of a minority should never be left to the vote of a majority.

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I was answering this question

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excon's Avatar excon Posts: 20,922, Reputation: 15445
Expert #195 Report
Today, 10:35 AM

Hello again, wingers:

Tell me, how does all this liberalism happen in a center right country?

Exocn

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Let me elaborate... gay marriage has happened in this country by court order or legislative action of the people . When put to a vote it has been defeated... even in California where prop 8 overturned a court decision . That is how it happens in a center right country.
Progressives have never been satisfied with the will of the people if it opposes their agenda

Hello tom:

I'm a believer in the will of the people.. When the votes were taken, the will was one way.. Several years later, the polls indicate the will is the OTHER way.

In ANY case, we're talking about Constitutional rights here, and they CAN'T BE voted away, as I've said over and over, and over again. Yes, some say it's NOT a civil rights issue, but I don't see how it can be viewed any other way.

It is that you don't believe the polls?? Ahhh, that's right. Republicans DON'T believe in polls. Well, there ain't nothing I can do about that.

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello tom:

I'm a believer in the will of the people.. When the votes were taken, the will was one way.. Several years later, the polls indicate the will is the OTHER way.

In ANY case, we're talking about Constitutional rights here, and they CAN'T BE voted away, as I've said over and over, and over again. Yes, some say it's NOT a civil rights issue, but I don't see how it can be viewed any other way.

It is that you don't believe the polls??? Ahhh, that's right. Republicans DON'T believe in polls. Well, there ain't nothing I can do about that.

excon

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Constitutional Rights?. exactly where in the constitution does it say specifically marriage is a right for anyone but a man and a woman? Hell for that matter where does it say marriage is a right at all.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Rights are rights.....if they are a RIGHT...then every group has them and you can't discriminate between anyone wanting to exercise them.

Why not toss out Incest laws and Pedophilia laws too....hell why not legalize Heroin and Meth.....just because some people think they should have the RIGHT to do it.

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Rights are not actually rights. It's not that simple.

When it comes to marriage we are taking mainly about civil rights. If you are part of a civil union then you have certain civil rights under that contract. For example, if the union allows for the government to issue some sort of health care card, then both heterosexual and same sex couples get the same government benefit. Perhaps we can say that everyone in the same situation has an equal right.

This has nothing to do with legalization of pedophilia or drugs. Such activities are against civil law and have nothing to do with, "a right to do so". In other words, there is no civil or natural right to pursue such activities.

Yes. Natural rights may be a factor when it comes to OTHER issues raised when it comes to civil contracts such as marriage. But again, you are confusing natural rights and civil rights.

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Originally Posted by Tuttyd

Rights are not actually rights. It's not that simple.

When it comes to marriage we are taking mainly about civil rights. If you are part of a civil union then you have certain civil rights under that contract. For example, if the union allows for the government to issue a health care card, then both heterosexual and same sex couples get the same government benefit. Perhaps we can say that everyone in the same situation has an equal right.

This has nothing to do with legalization of pedophilia or drugs. Such activities are again civil law and have nothing to do with, "a right to do so". In other words, there is no civil or natural right to pursue such activities.

Yes. Natural rights may be a factor when it comes to OTHER issues raised when it comes to civil contracts such as marriage. But again, you are confusing natural rights and civil rights.

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Really? Maybe in Australia they aren't... but in the USA we have something Called the Bill of Rights where they are very specifically spelled out... In fact that document ONLY specifies what is a right. If its not a right... then it's a privilege.

Privileges can be easily curtailed... rights on the other hand take a LOT more effort... amending the bill f rights or the Constitution is a big task and requires ratification by all the states... it can't be simply rammed down everyone's throats by a handfull of temporary public officials..

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Really? Maybe in Austrailia they aren't....but in the USA we have something Called the Bill of Rights where they are very specifically spelled out..... In fact that document ONLY specifies what is a right. If its not a right...then its a privilege.

Privileges can be easily curtailed....rights on the other hand take a LOT more effort....amending the bill f rights or the Constitution is a big task and requires ratification by all the states....it can't be simply rammed down everyone's throats by a handfull of temporary public officials..

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Yes, I know all about your Constitution and Bill of Rights.

The term, "civil right" means just that. They are rights because just like natural rights they are enforceable by a court of law

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, tom:

You got it exactly BACKWARDS.. The church isn't withholding rights from gays, it's the STATE. I have NO idea what you mean by the church not recognizing a gay marriage.. The ONLY thing a church could withhold from a gay couple is membership, and they can do that now. A repeal of DOMA isn't going to change that.

excon

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Actually this is wrong. Churches are being sued already for this.

"Our law against discrimination does not allow [the group] to use those personal preferences, no matter how deeply held, and no matter — even if they're religiously based — as a grounds to discriminate," Lustberg says. "Religion shouldn't be about violating the law."

Gay Rights, Religious Liberties: A Three-Act Story : NPR

Moonbattery: Christians Sued for Not Participating in Homosexual Ceremony

Christian Photographer Who Refused Gay Wedding Lost Lawsuit | Scott Fillmer

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Originally Posted by cdad

Actually this is wrong. Churches are being sued already for this.

"Our law against discrimination does not allow [the group] to use those personal preferences, no matter how deeply held, and no matter — even if they're religiously based — as a grounds to discriminate," Lustberg says. "Religion shouldn't be about violating the law."

Gay Rights, Religious Liberties: A Three-Act Story : NPR

Moonbattery: Christians Sued for Not Participating in Homosexual Ceremony

Christian Photographer Who Refused Gay Wedding Lost Lawsuit | Scott Fillmer

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Most of the states have written in protections for churches that refuse to sanctify the coupling ;however ,businesses like reception halls bakers,photographers etc are now forced to host cater ,service gay "marriage" affairs regardless of their convictions .
Did Ore. baker break the law when he denied service to same-sex couple? | Local & Regional | Seattle News, Weather, Sports, Breaking News | KOMO News

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Originally Posted by tomder55

businesses like reception halls bakers,photographers etc are now forced to host cater ,service gay "marriage" affairs regardless of their convictions .

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"Forced"? They are in business for themselves, so certainly they can refuse. And isn't this the American way and free enterprise, to make money?

Nope ;they are being sued whenever they try to refuse service under anti-discrimination laws .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

nope ;they are being sued whenever they try to refuse service under anti-discrimination laws .

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They?

Yes ,they being a number of businesses that have refuse to provide services to gay "marriage " events .

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Originally Posted by Tuttyd

Yes, I know all about your Constitution and Bill of Rights.

The term, "civil right" means just that. They are rights because just like natural rights they are enforceable by a court of law

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Natural rights mean nothing in American law... and we are talking about American law... they have no force of law... and they are completely without a legal definition, without a specific definition they are too broad in scope... and thus unenforceable..

You can't just walk around naked in public... how can you get more natural than that... we are born naked... putting on clothes is a choice we make... and its your right to walk around in places that aren't privately owned...

But just try and make that claim.

Marriage isn't a right either... if it was a right... polygamists would be allowed to practice it... and there wouldn't be age of concent laws. Marriage is a religious institution that dates back thousands of years... its not a RIGHT for someone to redefine as they wish.

Its not someone's right to marry their same gender any more than it is to marry out of your species... or inside your own immediate family.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Natural rights mean nothing in American law....and we are talking about American law.....they have no force of law....and they are completely without a legal definition, without a specific definition they are too broad in scope....and thus unenforceable..

You can't just walk around naked in public.....how can you get more natural than that...we are born naked....putting on clothes is a choice we make...and its your right to walk around in places that aren't privately owned....

But just try and make that claim.

Marriage isn't a right either...if it was a right...polygamists would be allowed to practice it....and there wouldn't be age of concent laws. Marriage is a religious institution that dates back thousands of years.....its not a RIGHT for someone to redefine as they wish.

Its not someones right to marry their same gender any more than it is to marry out of your species.....or inside your own immediate family.

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What??

"The Bill of Rights is the collective name for the first ten amendments to the United States Constitution. These limitations serve to protect the NATURAL RIGHTS OF LIBERTY AND PROPERTY." My emphasis

Taken from wikipedia

You know the rights to freedom of speech and freedom of religion. That sort of stuff is regarded as natural rights.

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Originally Posted by Tuttyd

You know the rights to freedom of speech and freedom of religion. That sort of stuff is regarded as natural rights.

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Tutt a natural right is the right to breathe, to enjoy the sunlight, to have water to drink, to live, to raise or grow food, to think, to feel.

Beyond that we have what we will allow each other because we have to make room for each other but it all becomes confused when men seek to modify rights for their own gain, you can say what you want, but you must temper that to demonstrate respect for others

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Tutt a natural right is the right to breathe, to enjoy the sunlight, to have water to drink, to live, to raise or grow food, to think, to feel.

Beyond that we have what we will allow each other because we have to make room for each other but it all becomes confused when men seek to modify rights for their own gain, you can say what you want, but you must temper that to demonstrate respect for others

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I have great respect. This is why I am defending natural rights.

Natural rights are fundamental tenets of how American's understand their freedoms and how these freedoms ought to be translated into legislation.

All Americans understand how natural rights are the cornerstone upon which a society is built. Well, almost everyone knows this.

Almost everyone from the left or right side of politics involved in this discussion will agree with my above claim.

I would agree with you that almost everyone has some understanding of rights there is one they don't exercise very often. You have the right to remain silent... I think that's how it goes

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Originally Posted by paraclete

I would agree with you that almost everyone has some understanding of rights there is one they don't exercise very often. You have the right to remain silent... I think that's how it goes

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That would come under a protection against the misuse of power by a government authority. This and most of the other Amendments can be regarded as a protection of natural rights.

This is why it is was an absurdity for someone to suggest that natural rights has nothing to do with American law. It has a great deal to do with it.However, natural rights are not the only rights enjoyed by a society.

To cut a long story short. Natural rights are those rights that are anterior to all other rights. They are anterior because one does not need an organized society to grant natural rights. They already exist. Organized society grants rights as well, but rights granted by a society cannot conflict with natural rights. Natural rights takes precedent.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that "gay marriage rights" are in any way natural rights. At least I hope they are not.

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Originally Posted by Tuttyd

That would come under a protection against the misuse of power by a government authority. This and most of the other Amendments can be regarded as a protection of natural rights.

This is why it is was an absurdity for someone to suggest that natural rights has nothing to do with American law. It has a great deal to do with it.However, natural rights are not the only rights enjoyed by a society.

To cut a long story short. Natural rights are those rights that are anterior to all other rights. They are anterior because one does not need an organized society to grant natural rights. They already exist. Organized society grants rights as well, but rights granted by a society cannot conflict with natural rights. Natural rights takes precedent.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that "gay marriage rights" are in any way natural rights. At least I hope they are not.

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Well done, Tuttyd. A little clarity never hurts.

Well tutt I agree with you, but then I don't think any marriage rights are natural rights any more the right to bare arms is a natural right