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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I'm not a member of the NRA so I can say what they do. I wasn't trying to be critical of your gun control. It is simply true that your government policies are much more repressive than ours. When you can't own a gun for the purpose of self defense, then it seems to me that the gov has gone too far, but that's what you guys do so it's none of my business. It's just good for the truth to be put on the table for the purposes of comparison.

We trust the electoral policy as well, but bear in mind that Hitler was elected initially. It was easy for him to gain control since private gun ownership was not legal.

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The Germans were hurting economically, and Hitler was smart enough to exploit it, and consolidate power through some shrewd appointments and rhetorical propaganda. He divided and conquered and export it to the rest of Europe.

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It's always someone else's fault. I wonder if a wildly out of control out of wedlock birth rate coupled, of course, with absent fathers might possibly have a little something to do with it? I think this practice of forever wanting to place the blame elsewhere is terribly destructive. People do better when they are challenged to rise above difficulties and better their own lives.

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All you say could be true to a small degree, but it's not blaming others to say the rents to high, and the paycheck is too small. The transition from industry to service economy leaves a lot of industrial workers in the cold. Take it from someone who hired into a 20,000 worker operation that shrunk to 3000 when he retired. ALL the towns around the operation shrunk with it. Not just my town but every town with a factory at the heart of its livelihood. Ask them coalminers how that works.

I get you don't like the social changes, but it's the economic ones that destroy towns and states brudder.

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we don't have this need of "self defence", we don't have criminals running around killing people, murder is a rare event here. Yes, there are criminal classes and if they use guns it is most likely to murder each other. You see this is a nonsense, we are not defenceless, we just don't have enemies on the level you seem to think you do. we are not a paranoid society.

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You do realize that no one had suggested those things were the case??? Good thing you're not paranoid.

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All you say could be true to a small degree, but it's not blaming others to say the rents to high, and the paycheck is too small. The transition from industry to service economy leaves a lot of industrial workers in the cold. Take it from someone who hired into a 20,000 worker operation that shrunk to 3000 when he retired. ALL the towns around the operation shrunk with it. Not just my town but every town with a factory at the heart of its livelihood. Ask them coalminers how that works.

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That's all fairly stated. I do understand that it is a problem. I would think you would be applauding Trump for the return of hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs. We gained 10 times more manufacturing jobs in Trump's first 21 months compared to Obama's final 21 months, so can we get some sort of a "Way to go!" for that?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckde.../#2aa2eabc5850

Even at all of that, we must begin to tell people that single women having children out of wedlock is not a problem "to a small degree", but is an ENORMOUS problem, and we do people a equally enormous disservice by being quiet about these issues.

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Even at all of that, we must begin to tell people that single women having children out of wedlock is not a problem "to a small degree", but is an ENORMOUS problem, and we do people a equally enormous disservice by being quiet about these issues.

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Single women having children out of wedlock is not a problem, it is idiocy since effective pregnancy control has been available for decades. What can you do when society is rejecting marriage?

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Single women having children out of wedlock is not a problem, it is idiocy since effective pregnancy control has been available for decades. What can you do when society is rejecting marriage?

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Very well said.

And the rejection of marriage has exactly what to do with closing factories and and a living wage, or the tax code?

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Originally Posted by talaniman

And the rejection of marriage has exactly what to do with closing factories and and a living wage, or the tax code?

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Here we go, change to subject

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And the rejection of marriage has exactly what to do with closing factories and and a living wage, or the tax code?

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Ah. You ignored what I posted about the revival of manufacturing jobs with Trump. You cannot appeal to closing factories. Besides, factories have opened and closed for centuries, but this business of absent fathers is largely a new occurrence. It is likely the most serious social phenomenon in our country, and is particularly acute in the black community. It is an enormous problem.

The most recent numbers, and the trend since October, and the poignant reality that we are talking people here not statistics.

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Most of the December employment gains came from service industries, extending a trend present throughout 2019 amid broad-based softness in the manufacturing sector.Within the services sector, retail trade added 41,200 jobs in December, more than reversing the decline of 14,100 from November. Education and health-services was another major job gainer, adding 36,000 positions in December. However, this was just half the additions as seen in November.Goods-producing industries lost a net 1,000 jobs in December, after adding 52,000 positions in November. Manufacturing lost 12,000 jobs, versus the gain of 58,000 in November boosted by the conclusion of the GM strike.

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Even though I should know better than to follow your links, I did take the first one to find out this: "U.S. economy adds 145,000 jobs in December, unemployment rate holds at 3.5%"

You never did give your opinion about the fact that Trump added TEN TIMES more manufacturing jobs in his first 21 months than Obama did in his last 21 months. If the poignant reality is that we are talking people, then you should be thrilled at that news. Is your bias showing through?

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Manufacturing lost 12,000 jobs, versus the gain of 58,000 in November boosted by the conclusion of the GM strike.

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Net gain of 46,000 in two months. Hooray! Hooray! Hooray!

Beats NOTHING for sure but man be accurate, they expected more but didn't get it and 52,000 strikers goin back to work goosed the numbers.

Speaking of goosed.

https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/imag...71&w=630&h=354High valuations, low earnings growth

Such remarkable gains in 2019 have left U.S. stocks expensive — in the 10th decile, meaning equities have been cheaper at least 90% of the time.
“Such elevated valuations in past periods have weighed on equity returns over the subsequent five years and lowered the odds of positive outcomes,” Goldman Sachs Investment Strategy Group CIO Sharmin Mossavar-Rahmani said in the group’s 2020 outlook. “That the bulk of last year’s returns came from higher valuations, and not growth in earnings, only compounds investors’ concerns.”

I'd still like to know what you think about Trump having TEN TIMES more manufacturing jobs growth in his first 21 months than Obama did in his final 21 months.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckde.../#676968825850

At a town hall in June 2016, President Obama famously said that some manufacturing jobs “are just not going to come back.” He went on to mock then-candidate Trump by saying he’d need a “magic wand” to make good on this manufacturing job promises.

Hmm. I wonder what room Trump keeps his magic wand in?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I'd still like to know what you think about Trump having TEN TIMES more manufacturing jobs growth in his first 21 months than Obama did in his final 21 months.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckde.../#676968825850

At a town hall in June 2016, President Obama famously said that some manufacturing jobs “are just not going to come back.” He went on to mock then-candidate Trump by saying he’d need a “magic wand” to make good on this manufacturing job promises.

Hmm. I wonder what room Trump keeps his magic wand in?

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Obama was hauling us out of the pit W had dumped us into. Trump then continued riffing off Obama's efforts.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Obama was hauling us out of the pit W had dumped us into. Trump then continued riffing off Obama's efforts.

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Every regime blames the previous for adversity and claims credit for prosperity

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Obama was hauling us out of the pit W had dumped us into. Trump then continued riffing off Obama's efforts.

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That tired excuse won't work. We are talking about the final 21 months of Obama's eight years compared to the first 21 months of Trump's admin, and an increase of 1,000%. The Obama apologists just don't want to accept the truth that Trump has done much better in that regard than Obama did.

I have never had a problem admitting the dufus inherited a much better economy than Obama did, a thousand times better, giving the dufus a solid foundation to build on for sure. Repub or dem whoever won the presidency would have benefitted even HC, but the dufus won and he benefits. That's simple enough to understand and so far so good for some that are in the right place to also benefit.

What's also simple to understand is while many benefit there is little effort to benefit those that weren't in the right place who cannot benefit with the rest of the country or helped through this transition from a recession to a great economy. Maybe it's taking longer to trickle down to the least, so when do you think that will happen?

And again. "That tired excuse won't work. We are talking about the final 21 months of Obama's eight years compared to the first 21 months of Trump's admin, and an increase of 1,000%. The Obama apologists just don't want to accept the truth that Trump has done much better in that regard than Obama did."

Nobody has to apologize for Obama doing his job well enough that the dufus didn't have to spend his first term fixing stuff. Where did you get that from? Unfortunately the dufus has done more than just juice a healthy economy, and he is being impeached for it.

Impeachment envy

I don't know what the controversy is all about in the comparison of Obama to Trump in the arena of jobs, economy, and the general mood of workers: I work with Blue Collar workers every day in manufacturing and there is a night and day difference in their moods, outlooks, and expressions about their own economic positions in the country....what I am getting at is that there is a very distinct change in the perceptions and attitudes of workers now as compared to when Obama was in Office....Trump gave the work force a big morale boost compared to Obama when workers saw no sunshine/light at the end of the tunnel.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Impeachment envy

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He was a crook before he got elected and still does some crooked stuff so he gets impeached so please explain impeachment envy and how it applies.

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Originally Posted by Vacuum7

I don't know what the controversy is all about in the comparison of Obama to Trump in the arena of jobs, economy, and the general mood of workers: I work with Blue Collar workers every day in manufacturing and there is a night and day difference in their moods, outlooks, and expressions about their own economic positions in the country....what I am getting at is that there is a very distinct change in the perceptions and attitudes of workers now as compared to when Obama was in Office....Trump gave the work force a big morale boost compared to Obama when workers saw no sunshine/light at the end of the tunnel.

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LOL, Vac! Obama spent two terms clearing out the dirt of despair so of course there is light at the end of the tunnel. Hope the dufus keeps it going, but we both know this good business cycle can't last forever. Never has, never does. What makes you think the dufus can keep the lights on forever?

Talaniman: I'll Grant you that the Bushes (both the H and the W) created "target rich environments" in the economies....but what I want you to know if that the Obama years were viewed dimly by those in the workforce...and we are talking 100% UNION HOURLY WORKERS, too, not white collar employees. Obama's rhetoric was always dismal and evoked feeling that there was no hope, that America's best days were long gone: Trump has projected an entirely different feeling amongst these same workers. I used to see a lot pro-Democrat stickers on lunch buckets and tool carts....I don't see those types of stickers any more: I see MAGA and Trump 2020 stickers now. You can call it a sales job or just a good job at propaganda but the Trump has changed the way these Union workers are viewing the future of the nation: Its just not politics as usual any more.

Interesting perception as mine has been a bit different but I admit I haven't worked in a union shop in decades and back then we had a bigger stronger union to be sure. Can't say I was working during the Obama presidency either, so maybe my view is a bit defferent and outdated, so maybe I'm just not qualified to say anything about peoples attitudes as you are. I know my peeps in SC and NC were inspired and hopeful during Obama's presidency, where they were more resigned to the conditions before him depending on the economy, but maybe it is just a matter of perspective, I don't know.

I would imagine though that most anyone with a good job is optimistic more so than those without, and presidents do get the credit whether that's right or wrong. I know the MAGA crowd is totally on top of the world right now where they were not before. Obviously though a good economy papers over a lot of other stuff that can be called into question.

Talaniman: Economies are very much inclined to be cyclical....Riding the crest of the wave for as long as it takes us is probably the best that we can do. One INDEX of the populations confidence, and I refer to workers in my manufacturing sector, is the rate of SAVING they are contributing as monthly percentile of their paycheck: Right now these contributions to individual savings plans are at all time highs.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

He was a crook before he got elected and still does some crooked stuff so he gets impeached so please explain impeachment envy and how it applies.

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envy that can only be assuaged by impeachment, this is very evident now the demonrats have inserted a clause that would bar Trump from reelection

when I started this thread, oh so long ago, it was talking about what is happening in France, the revolt of the masses against government led reform, or perhaps revolt about reform of social security, which, of course, is counter culture to some. However, you may care to note the struggle and protest continues, which demonstrates that no social welfare initiative can ever be repealed. However, it is interesting to note that this discussion is of no interest to those who don't have such a system and particularly not to those who don't want such a system.

There are other things in the world than Trump, the world will not rise or fall dependent upon the impeachment of Trump. There I have said it, I will forever be branded a traitor

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Originally Posted by Vacuum7

Talaniman: Economies are very much inclined to be cyclical....Riding the crest of the wave for as long as it takes us is probably the best that we can do. One INDEX of the populations confidence, and I refer to workers in my manufacturing sector, is the rate of SAVING they are contributing as monthly percentile of their paycheck: Right now these contributions to individual savings plans are at all time highs.

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I think hours worked plays the biggest factor as I remember adding more to that 401K when the overtime was plentiful and less when hours were reduced, but not every sector has that option, nor a good pension to look forward to, so confidence or common sense for the opportunity, or a good union or just luck of the right job?

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Originally Posted by paraclete

envy that can only be assuaged by impeachment, this is very evident now the demonrats have inserted a clause that would bar Trump from reelection

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I discount the envy opinion Clete because if anybody deserves closer scrutiny and accountability it's for sure the dufus who is a poster boy for bad behavior and attitude, and criminality...for as far back as I can remember. It's not envy by any means it's more like self defense and we ain't talking jaywalking, nor a one time event.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

when I started this thread, oh so long ago, it was talking about what is happening in France, the revolt of the masses against government led reform, or perhaps revolt about reform of social security, which, of course, is counter culture to some. However, you may care to note the struggle and protest continues, which demonstrates that no social welfare initiative can ever be repealed. However, it is interesting to note that this discussion is of no interest to those who don't have such a system and particularly not to those who don't want such a system.

There are other things in the world than Trump, the world will not rise or fall dependent upon the impeachment of Trump. There I have said it, I will forever be branded a traitor

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I get you have bigger fish to fry, but what do you expect from your American friends where the dufus is a hot topic.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

I discount the envy opinion Clete because if anybody deserves closer scrutiny and accountability it's for sure the dufus who is a poster boy for bad behavior and attitude, and criminality...for as far back as I can remember. It's not envy by any means it's more like self defense and we ain't talking jaywalking, nor a one time event.

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Maybe, Tal you know I don't like Dump's attitude, I don't like his delivery, he typifies everything I find distasteful about your nation, but he was elected to do exactly what he has done despite a verement opposition

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I get you have bigger fish to fry, but what do you expect from your American friends where the dufus is a hot topic.

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He is only a hot topic because he is loud mouthed and grabs attention

You could be right Clete the wingers wanted a bomb thrower to shake things up and he has done that. They love it even if he is screwing them too, and crossed every line ever drawn. He has effectively taken full control of the repub party and they dare not complain. No dufus no repubs, and they know it.

Talaniman: I have come almost full-circle on Unions....as a young, spunky newbie right out of the university, I really thought that the Unions were bad all the way around...that they were controlled by radical leftists, and that THEY were the reason for the decline of manufacturing in the U.S. Now, some or all of those accusations may have had some root in reality SOMEWHERE in the history of Unions in the U.S.....but I have come to realize that those early thoughts of mine were not entirely legitimate and MOSTLY erroneous altogether. The Unions I have worked with over the past 30 years have proven to me that their hearts, minds, and sweat are in the right place and I have found them to be, almost, totally, very patriotic! I stand should to shoulder with them and, by and large, they have never let me down. That doesn't mean I agree or support them on every single item, particularly how they circle the wagons to "protect" their fellow "brothers" that should be reprimanded severely but that is usually a public display because, in private, they will tend to tell you that a certain worker was at fault but their guidelines called for his support, regardless: Like all institutions, it can't all be perfect.

I'm a union guy, but have peeps who are management and union members alike. You're right thouugh, no institution is close to perfect.