Hello again,

I've been asking our right wing friends WHAT their plan is, but I'm rebuffed. I'm told there's PLENTY of plans, yet the Republicans have made NO proposals.

Today, on Meet the Press, Paul Ryan SAID that NOBODY wants to go back to the old way where insurance companies decided what health care you get. Essentially, he acknowledges the BENEFITS of Obamacare. He just offered NO way to pay for it.

That IS the question for you righty's, isn't it?? How to PAY for it.

Oh, I know I'll hear the same old crap about if I paid attention, I'd KNOW what the Republican plan is.. But, I DO pay attention, and there's NO plan. There's CERTAINLY no legislation.. Who CARES about the "plans", that reside in the heads of right wingers, unless they put 'em in a BILL????

excon

They did Ex, their plan is cut rich guy taxes and make workers pay more for what they buy. Trickle down economics but with no trickle. Increase profits and make labor cheaper.

You heard of RINO's? Well they have moved to being JCINO! Job Creators In Name Only!! Easy profits without working for them. Fat lazy greedy rich guys. Keep workers poor and on the public dole and talk about 'em like dogs.

Thought a liberal like you knew that.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

They did Ex, their plan is cut rich guy taxes and make workers pay more for what they buy. Trickle down economics but with no trickle. Increase profits and make labor cheaper.

Thought a liberal like you knew that.

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This is exactly the plan under Obamacare. To wipe out any remaining remnants of the middle class in this country. You have seen it but you just keep ignoring it. Be prepared for what you wished for as its going to turn this country upside down.

Making minimum wage, so called "entry level jobs", middle class jobs hurts the middle class?

What is currently happening to the middle class right now is that they are seeing a steep decline in buying power of the dollars that they earn and with Obamacare in place it has added yet another layer of expense. Not everyone is going to get a subsidy and those that may need it most are going to be denied. Some that have already had thier plans modified have seen huge rate hikes and less coverage of medicines that were previously covered making an already expensive world cost even more. Deductables have risen to a point where going to a ER for treatment is almost out of the question unless your about to die. Thanks Obamacare.

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Originally Posted by cdad

To wipe out any remaining remnants of the middle class in this country.

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How do they benefit by doing this?

They can benefit from it by creating a permanent dependent class of citizens and fracturing the govenment to change the status to a social government rather then a republic.

Poverty and lack of opportunity and options creates the permanent second class citizen. Talking about them just adds to the myth they deserve no more value as humans, or citizens. And transfers to their kids.

The whole notion of lumping the working poor with welfare queens, cheats, and lazy bums is a despicable tactic and political lie. But its been used since Nixon.

yeah Ryan talks a good game and then is part of a budget deal that allows more government spending on the very thing he says he wants to repeal and replace. This week Harry Reid and Pelosi praised Ryan . That's all you need to know .

That was a very small budget deal, and basically changes very little except stop the TParty from shutting down government... AGAIN in January, but down the line who knows what the loony's will do.

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They can benefit from it by creating a permanent dependent class of citizens

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Why would all american citizens want to be dependent?
We have socialized health care and it could easily be argued that we are a freer society than you are.

Hello NK:

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Why would all american citizens want to be dependent?

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You hear it all the time. They think, that we think, that'll be good. I dunno why. I don't understand ANYTHING they think.

excon

It is not that they "want" to be dependent. But Obamacare is trying to force people to be dependent.

Hello again, dad:

I didn't mean we, as in we poor people. I meant we, as in liberals.. What does Obama or the Democrats gain by having LOTS of people unemployed and dependent on them? If you say it's cause poor people vote for him, I wouldn't argue. They do. But, the poor didn't ELECT him. The middle did. Obama already HAS their votes. Why would he need to impoverish them??

excon

A chance to be healthy and responsible is making people dependent? Giving workers a chance to buy stuff with a higher wage and getting them less dependent on government is a bad thing for the economy?

Tal, where are you getting this stuff? The fact is that with Obamacare many that could afford insurance before can not now afford it and have to rely on a subsidy. Are you trying to argue that fact?

No argument, I agree. Its too high to really afford. The subsidies are tied to taxes, and adjusted for income. How else should the working poor get health insurance. Are you saying they don't need it? Or don't deserve it?

What Im saying is that they are putting on another layer of government by giving a subsidy that before all this wasnt needed. The people that now have to take it so they can keep insurance and never had the intention of taking anything from the government in the way of a handout. Forcing them to do so is just wrong. Its making more and more dependent on the government.

cdad don't let pride blind you, The ACA recognised increased cost in some sectors and offsets that cost as well as giving people who weren't subsidised incentive to acquire health insurance through subsidy. What it doesn't recognise is that if you couldn't afford health insurance before you probably can't afford it now and an apparent side effect might be that some find it more expensive

You do have a better way of doing it right?

Tal for thirty years our system has worked to provide access to health care to all. No one asks about your income level. The essential feature is a levy collected as part of the tax system with rebates for health care expenditures and a public hospital system with a parallel private insurance system for those who want it and can afford it. If you have health insurance you don't pay the levy. If you are too poor to pay tax you don't pay the levy. A large number of doctors participate directly meaning no cost to the patient. It doesn't have this heavy handed front end that the ACA has apparently put in place. You choose your doctor, your relationship with your doctor is not dictated by your health insurance unless you wnat to be in the private system

The point is, it is simple, it is effective, there is no punative tax, there is no question of coverage

Define your use of the phrase heavy handed front end .

Ok. every one has to go through the process again, there are penalties for non compliance, it's all linked to your income

layer upon layer of administrative complexity

There is nothing complex in regulating an industry that was gouging people and government for decades. Now all of a sudden the no regulation crowd is hollering about how unfair Obama is.

Not the question Tal regulation is necessary in many industries and self regulation has been proven not to work. The free market has proven that it isn't free. You have to stop insurers and others opportunistically gouging the public.

You have two aspects of the ACA

regulating the existing market
providing access to the disadvantaged

What I have been saying is what was done is unnecessarily complex

How so?

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What I have been saying is what was done is unnecessarily complex

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What does one expect when the plan was to pass it before knowing what was in it and hoping people would "embrace the suck" as tom keeps reminding us?

Well, people aren't embracing the suck

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WASHINGTON (AP) — Americans who already have health insurance are blaming President Barack Obama's health care overhaul for their rising premiums and deductibles, and overall 3 in 4 say the rollout of coverage for the uninsured has gone poorly

An Associated Press-GfK poll finds that health care remains politically charged going into next year's congressional elections. Keeping the refurbished HealthCare.gov website running smoothly is just one of Obama's challenges, maybe not the biggest.

The poll found a striking level of unease about the law among people who have health insurance and aren't looking for any more government help. Those are the 85 percent of Americans who the White House says don't have to be worried about the president's historic push to expand coverage for the uninsured.

In the survey, nearly half of those with job-based or other private coverage say their policies will be changing next year — mostly for the worse. Nearly 4 in 5 (77 percent) blame the changes on the Affordable Care Act, even though the trend toward leaner coverage predates the law's passage.

Sixty-nine percent say their premiums will be going up, while 59 percent say annual deductibles or copayments are increasing.

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Nearly 4 in 5 (77 percent) blame the changes on the Affordable Care Act, even though the trend toward leaner coverage predates the law's passage.

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Be interesting to know who they blamed before the ACA came into law.

What matters is who they're blaming now.

Hello again, Steve:

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What matters is who they're blaming now.

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Nahhh... What matters is who they'll blame (IF anybody) AFTER the benefits kick in.

NOW, there's just right wingers flapping their gums.

excon

Decision made in fear and anger often come back to bite you. This time next year, the ACA may not be the whipping boy of the right. Likely it will be red state citizens wonder why they can't get what the blue states are getting.

Can't wait until Paul, and McConnell have to explain why they are against their own rising number of citizens having health care insurance, and trying to take it away.

I can't wait until you libs get honest about it. No one wants to deny people health care, but obviously you're struggling to defend this crap sandwich.

Hello again, Steve:

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but obviously you're struggling to defend this crap sandwich.

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It's NOT yet a crap sandwich. It MAY be, but its crappyness is NOT a foregone conclusion...

One needs to see how the law works in its ENTIRETY before one could come to such a conclusion... Until THEN, there's ONLY right wingers flapping their gums.

When you go to a restaurant, do you decide that you DON'T like your dinner BEFORE it's served??? I don't think you do.

excon

Speaking of that truth issue you were mentioning, the facts will show the majority of my sources on this disaster since its rollout have not been right wingers flapping their gums. I must have missed when the AP became a bunch of right wingers, but I haven't missed how you guys refuse to acknowledge the reality unfolding.

Hello again, Steve:

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I haven't missed how you guys refuse to acknowledge the reality unfolding.

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Here's the reality from MY perspective... Since the get go, the noise coming from the right hasn't changed a bit. It was NEVER based on fact, and it's NOT based on fact now...

I KNOW that, because ALL the facts aren't in yet.. It's NOT a difficult concept to grasp.

excon

In other words, I should just like the fact that Obamacare is making it harder for me to pay my bills in spite of the president's lies that I could keep my insurance and it would get cheaper and just trust him that the plan no one read and America didn't want will work just great.

I quit believing fairy tales decades ago, ex. Shame you haven't, I refuse to "embrace the suck" and have ZERO reasons to trust this regime, you're a fool if you do.

How is Obama Care making it harder for you to pay your bills? Not your friends with private or no insurance... YOU. You have employer based insurance like I do, so why does the ACA affect you, and NOT me?

Hello again, Steve:

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ZERO reasons to trust this regime

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Waiting to see how things work out has NOTHING to do with trust. You MAY be right. It MIGHT be a crap sandwich. But, it might NOT be.

So, how much IS your new policy gonna cost as opposed to the one that got taken away? I asked you before if you lost yours, and you didn't reply. I also asked about your NEW policy that you got from the exchange.. Clearly, you BOUGHT one, and it's MORE expensive...

I wanna know the details. Show me the money!

excon

I don't know the details yet, we were busy burying my dad during my wife's insurance meeting. I know it's going to cost more and we lose dental, which is going to be a big hit.

But yes, if there is no reason to trust the people in charge of this mess we would be absolute fools to sit on our a$$es and hope for the best. I doubt that's how you run your business.

Hello again, Steve:

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I don't know the details yet, we were busy burying my dad during my wife's insurance meeting. I know it's going to cost more and we lose dental, which is going to be a big hit.

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So, this is your wife's EMPLOYER cancelling her insurance, and FORCING her to buy a new one? Are you saying she has no CHOICE in the policy she buys??

Was it cancelled because the old policy didn't meet the requirements of Obamacare?? If that's so, and it PROBABLY is, then aren't the brand spanking new benefits you're gonna get worth paying more for?

They'll NEVER be able to cancel you if you get sick. There are NO caps. They WON'T be able to DENY you for some pre-existing condition.. I dunno how old your disabled daughter is, but MAYBE she'll be covered too. There's PREVENTATIVE care that wasn't in her last policy.. And, there's MORE than that.

I dunno.. If it was me, and I just got a whole lot of government benefits, I wouldn't mind paying for them. Some people just take.

excon