Ask Me Help Desk - Gun control past debates

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Originally Posted by califdadof3

Personal responsibility is at the forefront of the debate. And obamacare doesnt do anything for most of that list.

But here is some more informal reading if you would like from the other side of the pond.

Guns save lives « Abundant Truth

Yes interesting reading but remember between the magna carta and today there was a civil war which changed the view a little, reality is only rich englishmen could afford a gun in those times and they didn't have the police force they have today. I have looked at the statistics and I see no excuse for the level of violence in the United States, if guns stopped violence the US would be the safest place in the world, it isn't, it is one of the most violent places in the world. When your 2nd amendment was written a fledgling nation needed an armed citizenry because they didn't possess much military capability, and of course, a few decades later you had a civil war fueled by the possession of firearms among the citizenry. All that war achieved was to get hunreds of thousands killed and maimed. It might have emancipated the slaves but it did little to improve their lot, it took a hundred years and an insurrection where guns weren't prominent for the nation to finally live up to the promise

You want abundant truth, it is found in rejecting populist rhetoric and protecting the innocent

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I have looked at the statistics and I see no excuse for the level of violence in the United States, if guns stopped violence the US would be the safest place in the world, it isn't, it is one of the most violent places in the world.

Well of course the real issue is how to deal with the violence in the country ;of which guns are but a relatively small factor in the equation. A couple of the President's directives deal with that ,and I applaud that .
America is only "one of the most violent places places in the world " when compared to a few other Western nations . There are MANY nations with higher murder rates per capita. What is notable in that is that most of the nations above the US in murder rates have strict gun control laws if not 100 % bans of guns.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Well of course the real issue is how to deal with the violence in the country ;of which guns are but a relatively small factor in the equation. A couple of the President's directives deal with that ,and I applaud that .
America is only "one of the most violent places places in the world " when compared to a few other Western nations . There are MANY nations with higher murder rates per capita. What is notable in that is that most of the nations above the US in murder rates have strict gun control laws if not 100 % bans of guns.

Is that because most of the countries above you that suffer from higher gun related deaths are third world countries?

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Originally Posted by tomder55

America is only "one of the most violent places places in the world " when compared to a few other Western nations . There are MANY nations with higher murder rates per capita. What is notable in that is that most of the nations above the US in murder rates have strict gun control laws if not 100 % bans of guns.

Well Tom either you want to live in a civilised place or you want to live in a backward place ruled by violence. You seem to think this violence is a badge of honour as if it is a positive thing

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You seem to think this violence is a badge of honour as if it is a positive thing

umm what I said was "Well of course the real issue is how to deal with the violence in the country ;of which guns are but a relatively small factor in the equation. A couple of the President's directives deal with that ,and I applaud that ".

Does that translate different in Aussie ?

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Originally Posted by Tuttyd

Is that because most of the countries above you that suffer from higher gun related deaths are third world countries?

Does it matter ? Your side is trying to make the correlation between legal guns and violence. Almost all the countries with higher murder rates have on their books very strict gun laws.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

does it matter ? Your side is trying to make the correlation between legal guns and violence. Almost all the countries with higher murder rates have on their books very strict gun laws.

I would have though it did matter, but anyway, you obviously don't.

Third world countries have lots of things on their books, but are hardly every successful at implementing them. I guess this is one reason why they are still third world countries.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

speech refer above, your pride and ego is showing

You have a really odd way of interpreting things... typically you make no sense.

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You have a really odd way of interpreting things... typically you make no sense.

There you go 'clete, when they run out of arguments they attack you.

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Originally Posted by Tuttyd

I would have though it did matter, but anyway, you obviously don't.

Third world countries have lots of things on their books, but are hardly every successful at implementing them. I guess this is one reason why they are still third world countries.

Yes criminals in all countries typically break the laws on the books... including gun laws.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

There you go 'clete, when they run out of arguments they attack you.

You never make sense.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

yes criminals in all countries typically break the laws on the books .....including gun laws.

Just look at Chicago for instance.

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You never make sense.

We don't sink down to your level. :D

Hello again,

It occurs to me that Republicans ABANDON long held positions when Obama starts liking them.. So, if we wanted right wingers on the CORRECT side of gun control, shouldn't Obama support legalizing bazookas?

excon

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Just look at Chicago for instance.

Hey! We're working on it! -- stripping people of their guns.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again,

It occurs to me that Republicans ABANDON long held positions when Obama starts liking them.. So, if we wanted right wingers on the CORRECT side of gun control, shouldn't Obama support legalizing bazookas?

excon

Or maybe Obama can tell his AG to stop handing assault rifles to drug lords in Mexico, 220 people killed with them... Stop the madness!!

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Originally Posted by tomder55

or maybe Obama can tell his AG to stop handing assault rifles to drug lords in Mexico, 220 people killed with them... Stop the madness!!

The NRA and GOP's Fast and Furious Lies | The Nation

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An e-mail from the head of the criminal division for the Arizona District US Attorney's office makes clear that the Fast and Furious prosecutors believed that it was legal for a straw purchaser to buy the guns and then transfer them to others, so long as those people were not legally prohibited from possessing firearms. The Republicans have asserted the opposite—that if the straw purchasers certified in their paperwork that they were the true buyers of the gun, but then transferred it after the purchase, they were lying and should have been prosecuted. But the courts in Arizona have disagreed, and thus, so did the prosecutors. Agents protested these decisions repeatedly, but of course were required to abide by the prosecutors' legal judgments. The result: a lot of guns wound up in Mexico, and two were found near the Arizona-Mexico border, where an elite US border patrol agent, Brian Terry, was gunned down.

So of course you again holler about a president who represents your greatest fears, minority with authority, and a "socialist", and head of the government you hate, yet completely ignore what mayors, and law enforcement have been saying for decades in our cities. At the same time you side with loony right wing groups who embrace violent "taking back their country" and racial isolation ideology and honor them as responsible tax paying citizens.

And you wonder why there is a war on you guys?? DUH!!

Tal you are foaming at the mouth . You make a lot of false allegations against me
1. I do not fear minorities with authority
2.I do not hate my government .
3.I do not support violent take back of the country
4.I do not embrace "loony right wing groups "
5.I do not believe in racial isolation
How you could fit so many slanders in a single paragraph is beyond me.

No I'm not finished . We have brought up a number of times the violence in Chicago... where the death toll in Connecticut is a weekly event . Let me ask you this ? Where were the children from Chi town on the President's podium ? Do you think any gun laws aimed at legal gun owners will change that ? Then YOU are the nut .

That's not what he said, its not about the legal gun owners, it was about not making guns available for the illegal crazy ones who get them from the legal ones. I heard him!

If you are not a loony right wing extremist, I apologize, my mistake, don't take it personally. As I have said before to you and Speech, you sure sound like one and obviously I can't tell the difference. Or maybe they sound like you trying to fool us progressives.

I don't know. Seems to me if you are not for all those things I listed, and are not a loony rightie, then there should be points of agreement somewhere. You have acknowledged to your credit that some of the presidents ideas he put forth were not to bad.

There's hope.

Can we all agree that all firearms sales should involve a background check and a paper trail?

Already stipulated

How would that work for a private sale, say, between neighbors?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Can we all agree that all firearms sales should involve a background check and a paper trail?

No I can't agree with that. I don't support national gun registration. I do support the background checks that many states do on the local level. But there really is no need for a paper trail.

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Originally Posted by califdadof3

No I can't agree with that. I dont support national gun registration. I do support the background checks that many states do on the local level. But there really is no need for a paper trail.

So there are no people in Texas and Florida taking car loads of guns to Chicago or New Jerey and selling them to bad guys?

Hello:

I'm not into registration either. I WOULD be in favor of requiring a gun owner to have INSURANCE. I don't know if Obama proposed that. IF that had been the case in Newtown, the family's would have gotten SOMETHING. As it stands now, they got bupkus.

No, they can't sue the maker of the gun. Somehow, the gun industry ISN'T liable under product liability laws. You know, the laws that say if the manufacturer of a CRIB hurts your baby, you can sue.. But, you can't if your baby is riddled with holes..

Do you think the NRA had something to do with getting that law changed??

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello:

I'm not into registration either. I WOULD be in favor of requiring a gun owner to have INSURANCE. I dunno if Obama proposed that. IF that had been the case in Newtown, the family's would have gotten SOMETHING. As it stands now, they got bupkus.

No, they can't sue the maker of the gun. Somehow, the gun industry ISN'T liable under product liability laws. You know, the laws that say if the manufacturer of a CRIB hurts your baby, you can sue.. But, you can't if your baby is riddled with holes..

Do you think the NRA had something to do with getting that law changed???

excon

Im not sure which law your talking about. There has been lawsuits against gunmakers when it was thought the product was faulty. Just as your crib example.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

So there are no people in Texas and Florida taking car loads of guns to Chicago or New Jerey and selling them to bad guys?

If you know those people then please turn them in. They are breaking federal law by doing it.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

There you go 'clete, when they run out of arguments they attack you.

Well of course karma but they always want to kill the messenger.

The issue has gone from gun ownership to violence which is the typical buckpassing argument of the NRA, they have done a good job of brainwashing, I expect that is why there are so many guns in circulation/

Was the gun defective like the crib ? No it wasn't . It goes back to the cliché I don't really care for 'people kill people'. If I drove into you ,intent to hurt you ,you would not have a case against Toyota .

If the mom had not been killed ,then she could've been sued for negligence depending on the state laws for safe storage. That would be easy to show causation . I don't know what type of estate she left behind . I imagine that will go to whatever settlement there will be .

What is defective about the gun, Tom, and particularly the gun used in Newtown is that it is designed to kill many at one time. Therefore the Gun in the person of its manufacturer has the same case to answer as the person who pulled the trigger. Those who designed the gun, manufactured it and sold it are equally cupable, accessories before the fact. If you could just grasp that point the population would flee from guns and manufacture would decline, we would literally beat our swords into plowshares and I say hasten the day

The gun did what it was designed to do, and did it very well. And it's okay that Americans have the right to own one just like it? For what purpose?

That truly is the question for what purpose do americans find the need to possess semi automatic weapons and high load clips, when are they going to confront rampaging zombies or hoards of native americans. I have news for you the British aren't coming again and nor are the Russians and I doubt the Chinese have any interest in destroying their biggest market

Good ,change the constitution as Rubio suggested .

You see Tom the groundswell is beginning

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Originally Posted by paraclete

That truely is the question for what purpose do americans find the need to possess semi automatic weapons and high load clips, when are they going to confront rampaging zombies or hoards of native americans. I have news for you the British arn't coming again and nor are the Russians and I doubt the Chinese have any interest in destroying their biggest market

Here are 2 of many reasons.

1) cyote hunting.

2) wild boar hunting.

Both of these animals when left untended can destroy very many animals or crops.

Aside from those there are many that are volunteer LEO's in their local areas that perform ride alongs and also patrol during times of civil unrest.

Your thinking is tunnelvision driven by your past. When might you open your mind to the fact that there are people that recreationaly shoot guns and also participate in shooting events?

It may not be your cup of tea but why do you want so badly to deny others?

And so my Chicago suburban, 80-90 IQ friend owns an AK-47, and it stands in his closet waiting for civil unrest to occur or a wild boar to run through his yard -- or his mother to get on his nerves one more time.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

what is defective about the gun, Tom, and particularly the gun used in Newtown is that it is designed to kill many at one time. Therefore the Gun in the person of its manufacturer has the same case to answer as the person who pulled the trigger. Those who designed the gun, manufactured it and sold it are equally cupable, accessories before the fact. If you could just grasp that point the population would flee from guns and manufacture would decline, we would literally beat our swords into plowshares and I say hasten the day

The original design of the gun used doesn't resemble in function the original design of the gun. When first issued it was during the vietnam war era and was a fully automatic weapon. Later it was derated to be a semi auto sporting rifle. Worlds apart from its original design other then the look of it.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

And so my Chicago suburban, 80-90 IQ friend owns an AK-47, and it stands in his closet waiting for civil unrest to occur or a wild boar to run through his yard -- or his mother to get on his nerves one more time.

Since your friend is in Chicago my bet would be on the civil unrest before the boar ;)

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Originally Posted by califdadof3

Since your friend is in Chicago my bet would be on the civil unrest before the boar ;)

He'd be the last person I would want to see shooting that thing. His judgment is very iffy. And his mother does a good job of irritating him on a regular basis.

The only good reason he might have to use it would be to pick off a coyote munching on his mother's Pomeranian in their upscale, leafy suburb.

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Originally Posted by califdadof3

If you know those people then please turn them in. They are breaking federal law by doing it.

A paper trail could help the cops and prosecute the perps. Especially a national paper trail.