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Not talking about a pregnancy ? Umm wrong. An abortion is an invasive procedure that has risks . Doctors performing such a... um.. procedure.. have the same liablilities as other surgeons.Quote:
we are not talking about a pregnancy, or even one at medical risk.
Its up to the doctor and patient to assume any risks, and liabilities of invasive surgery, NOT some ill informed law maker with a moral agenda. Don't you think they, the doctor and patient, are qualified to make that decision? What makes you think a government is? For what other purpose than put obstacles in front of a doctor performing a legal procedure would a legislature mandate a totally unnecessary, invasive procedure? And what's up with the moral testing clause in the rewrite of the transvaginal bill, and what's up with the person hood legislation if not to outlaw contraception?Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
You right wing conservative Christians look more like fundamentalist Muslims every day, thinking you can just outlaw a females rights and subjugate them to your own moral will. What's even more hypocritical, is that was the argument against affordable care by the right, a bureaucrat was going to get between a doctor and a patient. Didn't take long to see the true colors of the right did it?
Hello men riding high horses,
How long are you going to stick with that medically necessary BS, or are you going to admit that the REAL reason for ANY of this crap is to GUILT TRIP women into NOT seeking a legal procedure??
excon
We're the ones pointing out that what you're objecting to is already being done by the abortionist and you call us "men riding high horses"?
And as tom noted, you're objecting to this mandate (obviously for conscience reasons) while telling us our constitutionally enumerated right to religious freedom being violated by the Obamacare mandate is without merit? You can't be serious.
Yesterday the Iranian theocrats sentenced a minister to death for the crime of converting from Islam. There is a Saudi on the run for making tongue in cheek comments about Allah on Twitter . The Afghanis are having deadly riots over the burning of some Korans .Perhaps you might want to rethink your over the top hyperbole.Quote:
You right wing conservative Christians look more like fundamentalist Muslims every day
What's being done by abortionist is what's called advise and consent. What you are trying to do is take away the advise, and the consent. How does the law take away YOUR freedom? I say it doesn't. How does it take away from the churches freedddom? It doesn't, you just say it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
It does stop the church from denying others THEIR freedom though.
You may be more sophisticated as opposed to barbaric, but no less driven to control others, but to be fair, all you guys think your religion should be the law for everybody, and that's what qualifies the comparisons.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
And what you want is for the women to be denied an informed choice. You want them believing the lie that it is nothing more than a bloody lump of tissue to be discarded ,like so much chum .
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
I don't know. Religious repression ALWAYS results in WAR and MAYHEM... If you don't Christians are capable of it, you ain't been paying attention..
excon
Ancient history. The only repression I see here is the rights of consciencious Christians and their institutions.
No different tal, the entire purpose of the ultrasound is "advise and consent". It just adds balance to the scale being weighted heavily in favor of infanticide. Babies should have rights, too.
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
This is MORE of your right wing arrogance. You BELIEVE that women don't know that they're ending the life of their baby... You ACTUALLY BELIEVE that they don't know that. So, MEN have to TEACH women about it...
There's nothing that can be said about that - NOTHING..
That's why this election has turned around dramatically in the last few days. The country is getting a looksee at who you guys REALLY are, and it scares them to death.
excon
I think after THOUSANDS of years, females know what an abortion is! I know they do! Its insulting to think that they don't. Its insulting to think that YOU, or anybody thinks that making a choice between you, and your doctor, is anybodies business.
The hypocrisy of such a position is you want to make a choice in the name of life but offer nothing after a child is born. Then you wash your hands of any responsibility, and put it on the mother who didn't want that responsibility in the first place.
Now it only affects poor, and those who have no power, or resources, because a female with money can/has/will do as she pleases any way.
Brother, it's the left that keeps telling us we're too dumb to know what to eat, what to feed our kids, how to prevent overdraft fees, that coffee is hot and coming soon, a symposium on how evil Coke is, but that teenage girl knows everything she needs to know about an abortion. Dude!Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Um again, we're not the ones regulating us out of the business of being able to care for children, the sick, the homeless, the hungry, etc. etc...Quote:
The hypocrisy of such a position is you want to make a choice in the name of life but offer nothing after a child is born. Then you wash your hands of any responsibility, and put it on the mother who didn't want that responsibility in the first place.
And Planned Parenthood is all too eager to provide those services, even without parental consent if they have to. Cry me a river, there is no lack of access - this is still a cure in search of a disease.Quote:
Now it only affects poor, and those who have no power, or resources, because a female with money can/has/will do as she pleases any way
Hello again, Steve:Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
So, you're going to punish ALL the women in order to teach some kids. Dude!
excon
PS> (edited) By the way, "teach" isn't what you're about.. It's INTIMIDATION so that you get the outcome YOU want.
Look. I don't know WHY you don't want to admit that you're TRYING TO CHANGE HER MIND. You're not being MEDICALLY correct.. You're not trying to INFORM kids. You're trying to CHANGE THEIR MINDS from seeking a LEGAL procedure...
WHY WON'T YOU ADMIT THIS?
Who said I won't admit I'm trying to change her mind? Darn right I want to change her mind, but you and I both know the abortionist isn't going to INTIMIDATE her into changing her mind.
So we've established a transvaginal ultrasound is not required by the law, 99 percent of clinics perform ultrasounds before an abortion already, I do want to change her mind but the abortionist isn't going to intimidate her into doing so. Again, what's the beef?
Just a little correction here, the bill was introduced by Kathy J. Byron. Blame her for wanting to TEACH women about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Hello again, Steve:Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Uhhh, you forgot, a mandatory waiting period, making her LOOK at the sonogram, making her LISTEN to the fetal heartbeat. You also forgot about the FAKE abortion clinics where they FOOL young girls...
These tactics are utterly DESPICABLE.
The beef I have, is abortion is a LEGAL procedure... In this great nation of ours, we should be INCREASING access to legal stuff, NOT restricting it. Like you always tell me about pot, if you don't like the law the way it is, CHANGE it.
Now, if you want to stand outside an abortion clinic and YELL at the women, go for it... That's legal. But, to get the state to do your dirty work for you is VERY Un-American... It won't stand.
excon
PS> (edited) Oh, yeah.. I forgot about the wanted posters and the murders... I suppose because they were abortion doctors, their murders were justified...
(edit 11) Yeah, that's right Un-American and Un-Constitutional... It's not the state involving itself in the church as YOU allege... It's the church involving itself in the state, as I allege. You're not going to deny that your disapproval of abortion is based upon your religion, are you?
Nahhh, because that's exactly where it comes from, and the state is constitutionally prohibited from aiding you in your religious cause...
What's the waiting period... 2 days ? Seems reasonable if you want to snuff the life of a baby. There are no requirements to look at the image... they can sign a waiver... choice baby! Where is the baby's choice to choose life ?Quote:
Uhhh, you forgot, a mandatory waiting period, making her LOOK at the sonogram, making her LISTEN to the fetal heartbeat.
It is only the law of the land because the unelected for life black robed oligarchs decided it was . The people have not had their say.Quote:
The beef I have, is abortion is a LEGAL procedure... In this great nation of ours, we should be INCREASING access to legal stuff, NOT restricting it. Like you always tell me about pot, if you don't like the law the way it is, CHANGE it.
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
I added edits above that I'd love you to comment on.
The only say you're going to get is a Constitutional amendment... That's the way it's done in this fine country of ours... I know you don't agree. I don't agree with a lot of our laws either.
excon
I will deny it .The founders recognized the unalienable right of life in the Declaration of Independence. Sorry if I place that at a higher value than the 'persuit of happiness" . Certainly you must agree the 5th amendment due process clause is violated when a baby's life is snuffed .Quote:
You're not going to deny that your disapproval of abortion is based upon your religion, are you?
Why is there a baby there in the first place?Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
By the way ex, you should know better than to throw the radical tactics argument at me, you know I don't agree with such tactics. I'm not for the murder of an abortionist any more than I am for the murder of a baby. I don't scream at women, I listen and love. I don't fly banners showing pictures of dismembered babies and I don't do wanted posters, like your regime posts ghastly pics on packages of cigarettes.
Heaven forbid someone smoke a cigarette without being warned of the potential ugliness, but let's not ask women to consider the life inside of them before snuffing it out.
I don't understand the relevance of this question .If you have dominion over whether a baby lives or dies in the womb then why not after birth ? Oh I know your President voted in Illinois to snuff out babies who survived botched abortions... but I mean if it's a parent's power to kill in the womb then why not outside ?Quote:
Why is there a baby there in the first place?
Again, why is there a baby there in the first place? If it is being aborted, it isn't wanted. Not all unwanted pregnancies are due to rape. Is this elective birth control? Why aren't we teaching our daughters to honor themselves and have the ego strength to say no to your sons who want sex and cooperatively create babies?Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
That's not necessarily true, I want it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I don't know about you but a lot of us are, and again you infer that it's men's fault.Quote:
... Why aren't we teaching our daughters to honor themselves and have the ego strength to say no to your sons who want sex and cooperatively create babies?
A HUGE part of the problem is the chief protagonist - Planned Parenthood - is actively subverting parents in their efforts to teach their daughters and sons to say no. So you tell me, how are we supposed to raise girls to have the courage to say no when the people that promote abortion are on a campaign encouraging them to say yes?
No, you don't. You don't have the resources to raise it. It should not have existed in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
I did not. The girl has to be self confident enough to say no. The boy has to swallow his desire and sublimate--and not even ask.Quote:
again you infer that it's men's fault.
PP has nothing to do with how we raise our children.
Who are you to tell me I don't want that child? Really? That's a pretty ballsy statement, you know nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
You did so, "Why aren't we teaching our daughters to honor themselves and have the ego strength to say no to your sons who want sex." I got news for you, girls want sex, too.Quote:
I did not. The girl has to be self confident enough to say no. The boy has to swallow his desire and sublimate--and not even ask.
Really? I teach my kids abstinence and then they infiltrate the schools with their message to kids that they SHOULD explore sexuality. They flat out instruct them on the methods from anal to vaginal intercourse and beyond on the internet. They send our kids text messages and then do their damnedest to furnish abortions without parental consent for crying out loud. Don't tell me they have nothing to do with how we raise our kids.Quote:
PP has nothing to do with how we raise our children
That's rich, the left whines about soda makers and hamburger joints marketing to children, interfering with the parents' ability to properly raise their kids and all that rot, but when it comes to PP marketing sex they defend them. "Why, PP has nothing to do with how we raise our kids". Hogwash.
Well let me tell you, I'd rather my daughter have a Happy Meal and a Coke without my knowledge than rimming the boy next door.
"It" is generic and represents hundreds, even thousands. Your house and paycheck aren't big enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Back when rocks were cooling, we knew how to control ourselves and sublimate. Wanting doesn't mean doing.Quote:
You did so, "Why aren't we teaching our daughters to honor themselves and have the ego strength to say no to your sons who want sex." I got news for you, girls want sex, too.
They tromp over school personnel to get in the door? Their voice is louder than yours?Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
The kids initiated texting by asking questions.Quote:
They send our kids text messages
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
What forcing, they're welcomed in with open arms by the school systems. They provide the material in MANY school districts.
Why do we have so many teen pregnancies? Oh that's right, it's the boys fault.Quote:
Their voice is louder than yours?
That makes it right how?Quote:
The kids initiated texting by asking questions.
Send your kids elsewhere, like I did.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
I said in the beginning to instill self respect in your daughters so that will override male pleadings.Quote:
Why do we have so many teen pregnancies? Oh that's right, it's the boys fault.
Why do the kids have cell phones?Quote:
That makes it right how?
Why are the kids asking in the first place? Insufficient info from parents?
Hello again,
So, we're off contraceptives, and we're onto abstinence?
In addition to not understanding WOMEN, wingers don't understand CHILDREN either.. They think if they just talked LONG enough, or said the right things, kids will stop screwing...
Bwa, ha ha ha ha.
excon
Why do you think I went along on all my sons' dates? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by excon
Do you really think Kids are the problem Ex? Like it's kids who perform abortions? No Ex it is adults who perform abortions and for profit. If the kids were taught to do something productive with their time much of this problem would go awayQuote:
Originally Posted by excon
If the kids were taught by their parents...Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Yes that would be a revolution instead of abdicating it to teachersQuote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Girls are mostly looking for love and romance. Sex is not at the top of their list.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Ok, so girls want love and romance so bad they're too dumb say no. Kind of paints a different picture than that of the "woman power" image we're supposed to have.
Hello again,
Just trying to keep up.. We're OFF abstinence and on to the woman's movement? Ok...
excon
Sorry, I have to quote Limbaugh. "I love the women's movement, especially from behind".
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