Quote:

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Originally Posted by Synnen

How is it essentially different from Christianity today? The cover-ups with the priests sexually exploiting children, the suppression of women, blacks, and gays for centuries--even now, many Christian churches do not allow women to serve other than as nuns and exclude gays entirely--and until 50 years ago, excluded blacks from white churches.

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The priest thing has been covered in this thread. Allowing women to serve in the church at all is probably much more than you'll get out of Islam. We don't afford them a lesser status, don't allow marriage to a child, force them to wear a hijab and veil and don't participate in honor killings.

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How is taking over the world in the name of religion ANY different than what Christianity does?

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OK I admit it, Christianity wants to convert the world. Voluntarily, entirely of your own free will and if you don't convert, I promise not to cut your head off... just be who you are.

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Have you forgotten the Crusades, the witch burnings, the Spanish Inquisition and the missionaries to the New World?

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I never knew them so I have nothing to forget.

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If you don't believe me, try being a witch (pagan) or gay in the Bible Belt sometime.

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I will have lived in the bible belt for 50 years next week and I've never seen any heretics burned at the stake. In fact, I think they meet at Memorial Park every Sunday, weather permitting.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again,

I wonder if there are any Christian church's that would like to turn this country into a theocracy, thereby destroying the Constitution. Nahh. Whoever heard of such a thing?

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Who? In several decades of church life I have been taught to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, but I don't recall anyone in the church ever calling for a theocracy.

But the Christians in this country DO want a theocracy---they just don't call it that. Think of all the different ways religion influences law in this country. Running late this morning, so don't have time to get into examples--but I'm sure you can think of a few places where the "morals" that laws are built on come from the Christian morals.

And really--that was my point, speechlesstx, about the Crusades and witch burnings and all that--you DIDN'T know them. Neither do most Muslims know about what the terrorists are doing and planning. Looking at history--the atrocities committed in the name of Christianity have been as bad or worse than the atrocities committed in the name of Islam. But because YOU, personally, weren't a part of them, you refuse to acknowledge the point that the religion you belong to was behind them. Again--my point was ONLY that blaming ALL Muslims for the atrocities committed by some is like blaming ALL Christians for the atrocities committed by SOME. Or, if you like, that all blacks are bad because ONE of them stole from you. Or that all teenagers are bad and evil because you saw ONE of them on drugs. Please--accept an example for an example, already.

And having BEEN the witch in the Bible belt--burnings aren't always in the park at the stake. Egging my house, graffiti on my car, and discrimination in my workplace and other places, such as being asked to remove jewelry with pentacles on it or refusal to allow me to have my holy days off from work in exchange for working a different holiday. When's the last time you had to take Christmas or Easter off from work, and when have you EVER heard of someone being asked to remove a cross because someone found it offensive?

Either way--I see ALL of the objections to the new Mosque as religious discrimination unless you ask every church in the same area to please move away from a public/government remembrance site.

Synnen, I think we've been over this before. If some moron 'Christians' egg your house and all that other stuff they're just that, morons. There is nothing in Christianity that teaches, allows, endorses that kind of behavior. There may be sects, just as with Islam, that pervert the faith but we have nothing in our bible or doctrine that can be used to justify it. If you were my neighbor you'd be my neighbor and hopefully a friend.

As for being asked to remove stuff or whatever, I don't know of any instances personally. I do know one of wife's employers made everyone cover their tattoos, but it was applied fairly to all as it should be.

As far as encoding morals into law, that works on all sides... doesn't make us a theocracy for trying to protect unborn babies or allowing kids to pray.

Hello again,

Let's cut to the chase. YOU say, he has the RIGHT, but he SHOULDN'T build it...

Do you LIKE that right?? Would you change it if you could?

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again,

Let's cut to the chase. YOU say, he has the RIGHT, but he SHOULDN'T build it....

Do you LIKE that right??? Would you change it if you could?

excon

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Should the Aryan Brotherhood have the right to build anything they want next to the NAACP headquarters?

And that particular Imam is no better than they are.

Been there, done that multiple times ex. Yes, I like his right to build and I like my right to object.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Should the Aryan Brotherhood have the right to build anything they want next to the NAACP headquarters?

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Hello again, smoothy:

The question is simple and straightforward. Do you LIKE the First Amendment, or do you want to CHANGE it? Yes, or no is all that's required.

excon

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Yes, I like his right to build and I like my right to object.

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Hello again, Steve:

You don't see ANY conflict in the above?? I'm not really sure what you mean... If you LIKE the amendment, it would seem that you wouldn't object when somebody takes advantage of it... Or is it just the WORDS that you like?

Please explain. Do you LIKE it when somebody takes advantage of his rights, or do you not?

excon

I don't know what there is to explain, ex. They have the right to build it, I have the right to object. You recall the first amendment don't you? Does their right to build trump my right to object? Or, since you already know where I stand are you just waiting for me to endorse/bless/raise funds for the mosque? I think that's what you want.

Hello again, Steve:

THIS is a DIFFERENT question. I KNOW you don't want to answer, because it makes you THINK. Most wingers don't want to DO that.

Would you CHANGE the First Amendment if you COULD?

excon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, smoothy:

The question is simple and straightforward. Do you LIKE the First Amendment, or do you want to CHANGE it? Yes, or no is all that's required.

excon

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What does the first amendment have to do with a Terrorist Memorial at or near ground Zero?

And even IF it did... why are Muslims Above having to meet every restriction and law that applies to everyone else.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:

THIS is a DIFFERENT question. I KNOW you don't want to answer, because it makes you THINK. Most wingers don't wanna DO that.

Would you CHANGE the First Amendment if you COULD?

excon

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It's the Liberals that want to shut down Talk radio and every form of media they don't have essential domination over like they do in Newspapers and the TV media. Where the DNC dictates what information they will keep from the public and what they will avoid talking about. Such as Obamas records and avoiding any hard questions at press conferences to him that they love to throw at republicans and have..

If it was BUSH that has spent MILLIONS keeping all his records secret from the public that's ALL we would ever hear about... but for Lord Obama the Messiah, not a word.

Don't try laying THAT trip on republicans when it's the Dems that have been actively trying to silence anyone that disagrees with the Messiah (Obama) or their agenda in general.

Just one example... "The Fairness Docterine" which is anything but fair where they would by force get 50% of the radio airtime, but it would not apply to the already Lefty dominated TV news or Newspapers.

Liberals in general believe in ONLY their own free speech... but not anyone else's.

Hello again, smoothy:

I could call a monkey a cigarette, but it would still BE a monkey. You can spew all the words you like, but it won't change a mosque into ________.

You either don't KNOW the First Amendment (which is MY pick), or you do and you just want to deflect the conversation because you don't want to THINK about legal stuff like that.

But, I want to talk about legal stuff like that. If you don't want to address it, don't. But, I ain't going to respond to made up words.

excon

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Its the Liberals that want to shut down Talk radio

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Hello again, smoothy:

If you want to engage me, you're going to have to learn to debate. You don't debate. You throw out slogans and talking points. That ain't interesting, and I quickly grow tired of it.

I think we're done here.

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, smoothy:

If you want to engage me, you're going to have to learn to debate. You don't debate. You throw out slogans and talking points. That ain't interesting, and I quickly grow tired of it.

I think we're done here.

excon

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Really, YOU can throw out talking points and slogans but I can't?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, smoothy:

I could call a monkey a cigarette, but it would still BE a monkey. You can spew all the words you like, but it won't change a mosque into ________.

You either don't KNOW the First Amendment (which is MY pick), or you do and you just want to deflect the conversation because you don't want to THINK about legal stuff like that.

But, I want to talk about legal stuff like that. If you don't want to address it, don't. But, I ain't gonna respond to made up words.

excon

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You know, I've actually read the first amendment, as well as the second. And Nowhere in it and under any wording are Muslims exempt from every thing that can prevent them from erecting a terrorist memorial on American soil.

You can't Erect a Christmas Tree or Mention Christmas in schools... but Muslims are allowed to do anything they want, anywhere they want. I want to see how Muslims are granted rights Christians don't have in the Constitution. Since I can't find it myself can you please point it out.

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Originally Posted by excon

THIS is a DIFFERENT question.

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Sure it is when you change the question.

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I KNOW you don't want to answer, because it makes you THINK. Most wingers don't want to DO that.

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I love to think, I'm just very tired.

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Would you CHANGE the First Amendment if you COULD?

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No.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Really, YOU can throw out talking points and slogans but I can't?

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Hello again, smoothy:

THAT is the problem we have. You can't tell the difference between slogans and debate. I'm sorry, Dude. I like you, but this ain't working for either of us. I'm breaking up. Don't call.

excon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, smoothy:

THAT is the problem we have. You can't tell the difference between slogans and debate. I'm sorry, Dude. I like you, but this ain't working for either of us. I'm breaking up. Don't call.

excon

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So... YOU can accuse Republicans of being anti-first amendment because the Left is above ever even being questioned. But actual attempts by the left to actually restrict the first amendment can not be mentioned..


Come on now... unless you can produce in specific wording where Muslims OUTSIDE THE USA can build a Terrorist memorial on OUR SOIL and be above any criticism then I think its you who is using talking points and diversion, not me. And Nobody has yet proven WHERE that money is actually coming from... for all anyone knows it can be Ossama Bin Laden or his buddies in Suadi Arabia financing it. NOT Americans. THe Imam being a straw man in the whole thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smoothy

You can't Erect a Christmas Tree or Mention Christmas in schools....but Muslims are allowed to do anything they want, anywhere they want. I want to see how Muslims are granted rights Christians don't have in the Constitution. Since I can't find it myself can you please point it out.

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I see you changed this from what I first read.

What rights are Muslims granted that Christians don't have? There are four Christian churches (built on property legally purchased) within easy walking distance of my house and only one madrassa (built on property legally purchased). The only mosque in the area (built on property legally purchased) is in the next suburb over.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I see you changed this from what I first read.

What rights are Muslims granted that Christians don't have? There are four Christian churches (built on property legally purchased) within easy walking distance of my house and only one madrassa (built on property legally purchased). The only mosque in the area (built on property legally purchased) is in the next suburb over.

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Yeah.. you may have read it the moment I posted it but I edited it because I saw something I didn't like the wording spelling etc.

And every one of those when they were built had to follow the same rules, laws and restrictions that any other business would have to follow... including local review by the residents. And you didn't answer any question with that response. There are far more christians in this nation than Muslims... its not surprising there are more churches.

How many people live in that part of Manhattan, what "Community" are they claiming to serve. That's in the middle of a Business district... not a residential zone.

Democrats have fought to keep any symbol of Chirstian Observance of Chrisrtmas and easter as two examples out of schools and public places... yet they are defending the construction of a Memorial to Muslim Terrorists near a site where thousands of Americans, mostly NON-Muslim were Killed at the hands of Islamic terrorists.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

How many people live in that part of Manhattan, what "Community" are they claiming to serve. That's in the middle of a Business district... not a residential zone.

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It will be a business, not a residence.

Quote:

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Democrats have fought to keep any symbol of Chirstian Observance of Chrisrtmas and easter as two examples out of schools and public places... yet they are defending the construction of a Memorial to Muslim Terrorists near a site where thousands of Americans, mostly NON-Muslim were Killed at the hands of Islamic terrorists.

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I'm not Democrat; I'm a Republican and a Christian who believes Christian observances have no business in public schools and public places. Thus, I sent both of my children to parochial schools.

You certainly know how to ratchet things up by calling it a "Memorial to Muslim Terrorists"!

There is one politician running here who says he will use eminent domain to declare the building public property ;part of the 9-11 memorial .

Once it is public property I'm sure the Dems will then invoke the establishment clause ,as is their typical won't, to prevent the use of public property for religious purposes... right ?

I don't endorse that strategery because I don't approve of SCOTUS' definition of the 'Taking Clause' .But ;in this case at least the property would be reserved for public use and not for private renovation like what is happening all over the country after the Kelo decision.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

But ;in this case at least the property would be reserved for public use and not for private renovation

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Hello again, tom:

No, it wouldn't. Eminent domain cannot be used to mask religious discrimination. That's exactly what this will be. Do you think everybody will just go along and wink at each other? Dude! Like it or not, people ARE allowed to practice their religion in this country, freely. It's a RIGHT that cannot be taken away.

What blows me away, is that I'm arguing this with someone who has STAUNCHLY stood by this individuals RIGHT to build, but is willing to cave on it now... Wow! What kind of RIGHT'S do you think we have in this country if one stinkin politician or city can deny them to you??

I ask you again, would you be so cavalier about your gun rights?

I suggest you did NOT support his right to build, and you were LOOKING for reasons to stop it. It appears that you do not understand what, primarily, is the BASIS for this country's founding. Oh, you'll protest and say you do, but your post is evidence that you do not.

excon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

It will be a business, not a residence.

I'm not Democrat; I'm a Republican and a Christian who believes Christian observances have no business in public schools and public places. Thus, I sent both of my children to parochial schools.

You certainly know how to ratchet things up by calling it a "Memorial to Muslim Terrorists"!

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So a Mosque supports the Business Community just how. A Mosque is primarily a place a worship for a non-existant residential community.

It IS a memorial to Muslim Terrorists... there is no other possible explanation for why a Mosque HAS to go that close to ground Zero were there is essentually NO residents in the general area.

Is it being funded exclusively by Manhattan Muslims in THAT area? Nope... who is funding it? Don't know? Ever wonder WHY that's a great secret... The Imam is ON a trip to the middle east to get money for it from supporters of Radical Islam. Thus its Being built by the very same people who anyone who watched TV after 9/11 that were celibrating the Great Victory of the Terrorists. Are you aware its been a doctrine in Islam to build a Mosque at the site of victories over Christians for the last 1300 years?

And incidentally I do question if you really are a republican... and surprised you would pay to send your kids to a parochial school but deny others who were not catholic the right to celibrate Christian holidays with their friends.

And yes... in many places Protestants who surprise, surprise are also Christian are not allowed the possibility of enrolling their kids in a Catholic school at any price, and that is the only alternative to public school for many people. I grew up in such an area.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, tom:

No, it wouldn't. Eminent domain cannot be used to mask religious discrimination. That's exactly what this will be. Do you think everybody will just go along and wink at each other? Dude! Like it or not, people ARE allowed to practice their religion in this country, freely. It's a RIGHT that cannot be taken away.

What blows me away, is that I'm arguing this with someone who has STAUNCHLY stood by this individuals RIGHT to build, but is willing to cave on it now... Wow! What kind of RIGHT'S do you think we have in this country if one stinkin politician or city can deny them to you???

I ask you again, would you be so cavalier about your gun rights?

I suggest you did NOT support his right to build, and you were LOOKING for reasons to stop it. It appears that you do not understand what, primarily, is the BASIS for this country's founding. Oh, you'll protest and say you do, but your post is evidence that you do not.

excon

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Dodging the question are we... exactly where does a Muslim Imam with secret foreign funding Have a RIGHT to build anything anyplace he wants?

I am American Born citizen and I don't have that right... and neither do you. Otherwize Zoneing laws... local ordinaces homeowners associations, etc... would all not exist and would have been declaired unconstitutional... and Porn shops would exist next to public schools and so would halfway houses for drug abusers.

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What blows me away, is that I'm arguing this with someone who has STAUNCHLY stood by this individuals RIGHT to build, but is willing to cave on it now

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What part of I don't endorse that strategery don't you understand ?

I'm just amused at the lefts sudden appreciation of the 'free exercise clause'.

Quote:

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suggest you did NOT support his right to build, and you were LOOKING for reasons to stop it. It appears that you do not understand what, primarily, is the BASIS for this country's founding. Oh, you'll protest and say you do, but your post is evidence that you do not.

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I ,like Pelosi think this is a zoning issue . I like Howard Dean and Harry Reid think that there is more to this issue than the right to build because of the free exercise clause. I like Governor Patterson think it is reasonable to compromise on this issue .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smoothy

How many people live in that part of Manhattan, what "Community" are they claiming to serve. Thats in the middle of a Business district....not a residential zone.

Democrats have fought to keep any symbol of Chirstian Observance of Chrisrtmas and easter as two examples out of schools and public places....yet they are defending the construction of a Memorial to Muslim Terrorists near a site where thousands of Americans, mostly NON-Muslim were Killed at the hands of Islamic terrorists.

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How many times do we have to emphasize that a church is NOT a memorial to terrorism?

You are blaming an entire RELIGION for the actions of what? 10-20 people?

Let's ban Roman Catholicism because a bunch of priests molested children! (It's the same thing you're doing, Smoothy!)

And how many CHURCHES are within that same area? I know of at least 3 within the SAME DISTANCE as the proposed Mosque. There are at least SIX within a 10 block area. What "communities" are THEY serving, Smoothy? They're in the middle of a business district too.

All I see here is blocking freedom of religion and discrimination against an entire religion for the actions of a few extremists. That's like blaming every German for the Nazis, or every American for the bomb at Hiroshima.

Sounds to me like you can't and won't see that Islam is a religion of peace, and that the terrorists are NOT what every Muslim out there is like.

And if you want to talk about religion trying to push government around, let's talk about DOMA, and about the Pledge of Allegiance, and about "In God We Trust" on our money.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smoothy

And incidently I do question if you really are a republican....and suprised you would pay to send your kids to a parochial school but deny others who were not catholic the right to celibrate Christian holidays with their friends.

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I am a registered Republican (have been since I could register to vote) living in an Illinois county that is Republican and am also Missouri-Synod Lutheran minister's daughter who was a Lutheran elementary school teacher.

I don't understand your sentence about Catholics and the right to "celibrate" Christian holidays.

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Originally Posted by Synnen

How many times do we have to emphasize that a church is NOT a memorial to terrorism?

You are blaming an entire RELIGION for the actions of what? 10-20 people?

Let's ban Roman Catholicism because a bunch of priests molested children! (It's the same thing you're doing, Smoothy!)

And how many CHURCHES are within that same area? I know of at least 3 within the SAME DISTANCE as the proposed Mosque. There are at least SIX within a 10 block area. What "communities" are THEY serving, Smoothy? They're in the middle of a business district too.

All I see here is blocking freedom of religion and discrimination against an entire religion for the actions of a few extremists. That's like blaming every German for the Nazis, or every American for the bomb at Hiroshima.

Sounds to me like you can't and won't see that Islam is a religion of peace, and that the terrorists are NOT what every Muslim out there is like.

And if you want to talk about religion trying to push government around, let's talk about DOMA, and about the Pledge of Allegiance, and about "In God We Trust" on our money.

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It IS a memorial to terrorists. Where is the "Underserved" muslim Community in an area of Manhattan with NO residential Apartments... thus no residents to serve.

WHY is it so important to put a Mosque right there under so much protest if their intent isn't to get in the face of most americans to rub 9/11 in. Over 70% of the American Population sees that for what it is... a Memorial to the Terrorists... and an anti-american swipe just like the terrorists did on 9/11.

I certain hope that it gets burned down or blown up if its ever allowed to be built there, nope I won't be the one to do it... but there are millions in line that will.. I don't care if its across town... just not right there. I don't support other Mosques getting torched... but for that one particular one ever gets built AND torched... I'm throwing a Bar-B-Que party in honor of it.

ANd your analogy isn't correct. IF the Priest that molested the kids set up a house with a sign across the street from the home of one of his victims saying "what a sweet butt he has"... now that's a better analogy.

Incidentally I'm a protestant and don't support Catholic Docterine... and certainy didn't support their handling of that matter.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

What part of I don't endorse that strategery don't you understand ?

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Hello again, tom:

Let's not kid ourselves. You don't endorse it because you don't endorse eminent domain - not because you thought it wouldn't work. You though it would work, all right - hence, your willingness to cave.

If you BELIEVE in the First Amendment, there's no caving, there's no but's, and there's no lists.

excon

Synn .
Unfortunately history is not on your side. Political Islam has always constructed Mosques on the sites of their victories.
In Cordoba the Califate built a Mosque on a razed Cathedral . In Jerusalem they built one on the ruins of the Temple .The Mosque of Amr (Mosque of Amr ibn al-As) was built to commemorate the conquest of Egypt.

There is no coincidence in the siting of this proposed Mosque .To the jihadists the WTC was the symbol of American economic might. To them it was a secular cathedral . KSM and his nephew Ramsi Yousef made it their decade long mission to bring them down.

The symbolism of a mosque towering over the site will certainly not be lost in the Ummah. Too bad PC 'head in the sand' politicians like Mayor Bloomberg and President Obama cannot make the distinction between their sudden discovery of an 'absolute' right to the free exercise of religion (they never seemed concerned about it before ) ;and the real question of if it SHOULD be built .

From a cuny.edu site --

From its earliest days of European settlement, when members of the Dutch West India Company landed on the southern tip of the island of Manahata, there were Muslims in New Amsterdam. As the seventeenth century wore on into the eighteenth, African slaves and sailors who practiced the Muslim faith were among many who helped to transform a tiny commercial outpost into the growing port city of New York.

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Originally Posted by Synnen

How many times do we have to emphasize that a church is NOT a memorial to terrorism?

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A church is not. This church may well be. The entire project still is titled "The Cordoba Initiative." Newt was a little over the top calling it a deliberate insult to the west, but the name is significant. Victor Davis Hansen calls it "cynically brilliant."

Victor Davis Hanson: The Cynical Brilliance of Imam Rauf - There are thousands of sites where...

Well done VDH !

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

from a cuny.edu site --

From its earliest days of European settlement, when members of the Dutch West India Company landed on the southern tip of the island of Manahata, there were Muslims in New Amsterdam. As the seventeenth century wore on into the eighteenth, African slaves and sailors who practiced the Muslim faith were among many who helped to transform a tiny commercial outpost into the growing port city of New York.

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NYC already has over 200 registed Mosques . Lower Manhattan already has a few .

Apparently, the damaged building that will be torn down, a four-story Burlington Coat Factory, is already being used as a mosque by local Muslims. (That building, along with others in the area, was damaged on 9/11.)

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Originally Posted by tomder55

and the real question of if it SHOULD be built .

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Hello again, tom:

Assuming you meant to say, the real question is, SHOULD it be built, I'll handle that one. It's easy. I also agree, that THAT is the central question.

Should an American citizen build what he wants to build on his own property, assuming of course, that he's met all local zoning and building codes? Of course he should.

Should it matter whether I like it or not? No.

excon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomder55

NYC already has over 200 registed Mosques . Lower Manhattan already has a few .

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So? This will revitalize a broken, even derelict, area of Manhattan.