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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Good night.

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You misunderstand what happens.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Did you look up genotype/phenotype? You will find that very helpful.

undifferentiated. not having any distinguishing features

In other words, you cannot tell one from the other.

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Exactly. Both look female. No testes or penis is visible to show it's a male. Then, if it's truly male, things change at 6-7 weeks.

Please try to understand.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Your “testosterone bath” was not in your article and completely unsupported. It is just poor conjecture. So you simply have no support. You don’t understand the science.

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The author of an article or book uses parentheses to add explanations or asides.
A reader, quoting material, uses brackets to do the same.

Yes, I understand the science and even gave you a very reliable article that supports that science.

Your own article said nothing of a testosterone bath and contradicted your idea. You included that idea deceptively. You were caught.

“Truly male”. How is that determined?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Your own article said nothing of a testosterone bath and contradicted your idea. You included that idea deceptively. You were caught.

“Truly male”. How is that determined?

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"...the expression of a gene on the Y chromosome ["testosterone bath"] induces changes that result in the development of the testes."

Truly male with XY chromosomes and internal/external male sex organs.

Like I said. No support for a testosterone bath. Period. A gene expression must come before testosterone and not afterwards.. Sorry.

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Truly male with XY chromosomes and internal/external male sex organs.

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But you referenced six weeks. There are, you said, no male genitalia at six weeks, so you are just left with sex chromosomes. When are those established?

How can you have a "testosterone bath" PRIOR to the development of the testes? "["testosterone bath"] induces changes that result in the development of the testes."

Spoke with a pro-abortion med student at the abortion clinic yesterday. Asked her when male/female was established. Answer? At conception.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Spoke with a pro-abortion med student at the abortion clinic yesterday. Asked her when male/female was established. Answer? At conception.

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That's not the right question. I haven't said it doesn't.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

But you referenced six weeks. There are, you said, no male genitalia at six weeks, so you are just left with sex chromosomes. When are those established?

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In the brain.

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How can you have a "testosterone bath" PRIOR to the development of the testes? "["testosterone bath"] induces changes that result in the development of the testes."

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That "testosterone bath" is what gives the fetus observable male sex organs.

Hormones are hard at work during pregnancy and can influence the appearance and gender confusion of the resulting human. Cf. DES, a synthetic form of the female hormone estrogen, prescribed to pregnant women between 1940 and 1971 to prevent miscarriage, premature labor, and related complications of pregnancy.

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In the brain.

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So evasive. The question was "when" and not where. And are you really suggesting that sex chromosomes do not reside outside the brain? Well, that question is answered. It is established at the moment of conception. Even your own article agreed with that.

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That "testosterone bath" is what gives the fetus observable male sex organs.

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But you originally said that ALL embryos were subjected to your "testosterone bath". At least you now recognize that only the males are affected by testosterone coming from their own testes. We are making progress!!

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Hormones are hard at work during pregnancy and can influence the appearance and gender confusion of the resulting human. Cf. DES, a synthetic form of the female hormone estrogen, prescribed to pregnant women between 1940 and 1971 to prevent miscarriage, premature labor, and related complications of pregnancy.

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DES was not given to those babies by nature. That was a man-made intervention. The rest of your statement is simply common knowledge OTHER THAN the gender confusion part. You have yet to support that, but I'm open to it being possible. You would need something substantial. I have looked and come up with nothing of any real substance. It's just a lot of "maybes" and "possibles". At any rate, if it was true, then it would be a simple idea to verify. Track a thousand or so pregnant women, monitoring their uterine testosterone levels, and then follow their children to see if TG has an indicator. That it seems to have not been done speaks volumes.

At least the issues of sex determination and "testosterone baths" have been put to rest.

As I said, hormones (from the mother and from the developing fetus) greatly influence that fetus.

Yes, DES (an "estrogen wash") was an intervention by physicians, and it greatly, negatively!!! affected the brain of the unborn, creating transgenders by the millions. Their brain tells them they are one gender; their bodies say they are the opposite gender.

The terrible DES situation came to a close in 71. It is not effecting anyone under the age of fifty now, so that cannot be an appeal to this current day.

Hormones influence the fetus? That was never an issue. Your now revealed to be unsupported assertion that ALL embryos, including female ones, were subjected to a "testosterone bath" that somehow resulted in gender confusion was the issue.

I have no issue with TG people. I wish them all well and pray for God's deliverance and freedom to rest on them, but I will not buy into pseudoscience in a misguided attempt to make it all appear to be just another way of living. You are free to believe what you want, but not free to ask me to believe it unless you can support it.

No, there isn't only one hormone influence on that fetus. As I said, not only do physicians give the pregnant female estrogen/progesterone by injection or prescription in order to prevent a miscarriage, hormones from the mother and from the developing fetus itself greatly influence that fetus and its brain and how it will consider its own gender after birth, in early childhood.

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hormones from the mother and from the developing fetus greatly influence that fetus and its brain and how it will consider its own gender after birth, in early childhood.

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Just an unsupported idea if you are referring to gender confusion.

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Then, if it's truly male, things change at 6-7 weeks.

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This was the statement that really settled it. You are agreeing here that an embryo is "truly male" PRIOR to the development of testes, release of testosterone, and development of male genitalia. The only factor existing prior to that would be the sex chromosomes, and that is established at conception.

Surely now we can talk about something else.

The influence of testosterone and/or estrogen and progesterone on the outward appearance vs. what their influences on the brain telling that human what gender it is. (P.S. The brain wins; outward appearance loses and doesn't matter.)

P.S. You need some support for the idea of hormones "telling the brain" what gender it is. You have presented nothing to back that idea up. You especially need support that hormones "tell the brain" that even though the child is XY, it is nonetheless a female gender.

I have been a little surprised you made no effort to look up identical twin studies. They are often considered to be the gold standard for issues such as these. I did find this.

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Combining data from the present survey with those from past-published reports, 20% of all male and female monozygotic (identical twins J.L.) twin pairs were found concordant for transsexual identity. This was more frequently the case for males (33%) than for females (23%). The responses of our twins relative to their rearing, along with our findings regarding some of their experiences during childhood and adolescence show their identity was much more influenced by their genetics than their rearing.

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20% is an interesting finding. It would seem to suggest that while some sort of genetic or intrauterine influence was in play, there would seem to be something else of greater significance at work as well. After all, the 80% negative result is far higher than one would expect if it was ONLY genetic or intrauterine. Wonder what?

https://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/a...sexuality.html

You're saying hormones have no influence on a fetal brain?

Where did you see me say that?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Where did you see me say that?

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Here --

P.S. You need some support for the idea of hormones "telling the brain" what gender it is. You have presented nothing to back that idea up. You especially need support that hormones "tell the brain" that even though the child is XY, it is nonetheless a female gender.