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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

The problem has been pointed out and defined ad nauseum but possible solutions aren't very forthcoming.

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It's not as if any of my fellow American libs here were willing to engage in an honest discussion anyway other than to say reduce teen pregnancies. Wow.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

It's not as if any of my fellow American libs here were willing to engage in an honest discussion anyway other than to say reduce teen pregnancies. Wow.

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It is one suggestion. One. What is your solution?

I have no answers to the problems caused by our move to a socialist state It would appear that the majority of people everywhere are attracted to the idea of getting something for nothing, at someone else's expense.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

It would appear that the majority of people everywhere are attracted to the idea of getting something for nothing, at someone else's expense.

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And you know this how?

I don't think he knows what socialism is other than trying to turn the word into a pejorative.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

It would appear that the majority of people everywhere are attracted to the idea of getting something for nothing, at someone else's expense.

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Yes how's that going for you? If as you say this is the majority opinion, in a democracy the majority rules and so there isn't a problem unless you let it get out of hand, such as in Greece. Let's face it, Tom, business gets something at someoneelse's expense through government subsidy, you have a whole lobbying industry working hard to achieve just such an objective, as well as your representatives and senators and you think this is socialism. No, you are bleating because the poor and underpriviliged might get part of the pie

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Yes how's that going for you? If as you say this is the majority opinion, in a democracy the majority rules and so there isn't a problem unless you let it get out of hand, such as in Greece. Let's face it, Tom, business gets something at someoneelse's expense through government subsidy, you have a whole lobbying industry working hard to achieve just such an objective, as well as your representatives and senators and you think this is socialism. No, you are bleating because the poor and underpriviliged might get part of the pie

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I want everyone to have part of the pie. Making a pie takes work, eating one someone else made requires little effort.

Speaking of lobbying, raising taxes leads to more of it.

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As important, many politicians support tax breaks for favored groups (the elderly, the poor, small business) and causes (homeownership, attending college, “green” industries). This enhances their power. The man who really pronounced the death sentence for the Tax Reform Act of 1986 was Bill Clinton, who increased the top rate to 39.6 percent rather than broadening the base.As the top rate rose, so did the value of generating new tax breaks. Ironically, many of the people who complain the loudest about Washington influence-peddling and lobbying are the same people who support higher tax rates, which stimulate more influence-peddling and lobbying.

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But hey, at least Obama can fulfill a campaign promise.

P.S. Again France leads the way in teaching us about high tax rates...

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French actor Depardieu seeks Belgian residency: mayor

Senesael said Depardieu would join some 2,800 French living in the same area a few minutes drive from the border, including the Mulliez family, owners of French hypermarket chain Auchan and Decathlon sports stores, who have lived there for years.

Belgian residents do not pay wealth tax, which in France is now slapped on individuals with assets over 1.3 million euros, nor do they pay capital gains tax on the sale of shares.

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I can't imagine him not wanting to stick around while his country taxes him at 75 percent, can you? The Socialist mayor of Paris just doesn't think he's being generous any more.

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“It is sad because he is a great actor and someone I know and like,” said Bertrand Delanoe, the Socialist mayor of Paris. “He is a generous man but in this instance he is not showing that.”

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Damn greedy people. What are you going to do?

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let's face it, Tom, business gets something at someoneelse's expense through government subsidy, you have a whole lobbying industry working hard to achieve just such an objective, as well as your representatives and senators and you think this is socialism. No, you are bleating because the poor and underpriviliged might get part of the pie

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You know my position on that ;so it is not a valid counter-argument and does not at all address the fact that the biggest breakdown in society has coincided with dependency on the leviathian state... socialist or otherwise . Call it progressive if you're more comfortable with that. .

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Yes how's that going for you? If as you say this is the majority opinion, in a democracy the majority rules and so there isn't a problem unless you let it get out of hand, such as in Greece. let's face it, Tom, business gets something at someoneelse's expense through government subsidy, you have a whole lobbying industry working hard to achieve just such an objective, as well as your representatives and senators and you think this is socialism. no, you are bleating because the poor and underpriviliged might get part of the pie

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Exactly.

Let's talk about Steve's bigger picture and Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations. Smith says, "The authority of riches...is perhaps in the rudest age of society which admits of any considerable inequality of fortune"

Smith is talking about the unproductive labour. The managers, technocrats, and other specialists that make living off productive labour. The rudeness here is the belief that one unproductive part of society is dragging the country down. It is the rent-seeks that will turn us into a third world country. The Leviathan state serves the wealthy just as much as it serves the poor.

That's a more complete picture.


Tut

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I want everyone to have part of the pie. Making a pie takes work, eating one someone else made requires little effort.

Speaking of lobbying, raising taxes leads to more of it.



But hey, at least Obama can fulfill a campaign promise.

P.S. Again France leads the way in teaching us about high tax rates...



I can't imagine him not wanting to stick around while his country taxes him at 75 percent, can you? The Socialist mayor of Paris just doesn't think he's being generous any more.



Damn greedy people. What are you gonna do?

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Hi speech

Let's avoid the issue of who made the pie for a moment, this is really about paying for benefits of various Kinds (the pie you have already eaten) which have been bought with borrowed money. A large part of the pie goes to paying the interest and no part of the pie goes to repaying the debt. What we hear are arguments as to why we should bake a bigger pie.

The greedy people, ie; those in higher income brackets and with big assets, think the pie belongs to them. What you have to do is reform, and as you can see in Europe having taxation systems which aren't uniform in neighbouring states is an incentive to decamp and avoid reform. So what you need is a uniform taxation system. Everyone pays the same no matter where they live.

There is a cure for this and I'm sure you have heard of it. It is called inflation. That is where you get a bigger pie full of hot air

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Originally Posted by tomder55

you know my position on that ;so it is not a valid counter-argument and does not at all address the fact that the biggest breakdown in society has coincided with dependency on the leviathian state ....socialist or otherwise . Call it progressive if you're more comfortable with that . .

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If those job creators would create some jobs and stop sending them overseas to countries that I now have to call to get computer or cell phone problems fixed, that dependency would fade away.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

If those job creators would create some jobs and stop sending them overseas to countries that I now have to call to get computer or cell phone problems fixed, that dependency would fade away.

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But its called trade and it is part of foreign policy to make other dependent upon your business. Do you want to reverse the foreign policy gains of all those years? I mean it is only fair that those who make the product should have a part in solving the problems. If only. The thing is you have to realise that the innovation that makes those products cheap and available didn't necessarily come from your nation. You want to create jobs, do something no one has done before, use raw materials you have to mine and process yourselves or just focus on yourselves, put some of that brain power you have invested in colleges to work. You see you were great when the innovation was home grown, the car industry, the aircraft industry, the oil industry, skyscrapers but the nation building has been done, you don't need as much innovation and the lowly paid jobs, they have left

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Originally Posted by tomder55

you know my position on that ;so it is not a valid counter-argument and does not at all address the fact that the biggest breakdown in society has coincided with dependency on the leviathian state ....socialist or otherwise . Call it progressive if you're more comfortable with that . .

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I'm glad you said, "socialist or otherwise". It is the otherwise bit that seems to be ignored when looking at the bigger picture.

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Originally Posted by tomder55
You know my position on that ;so it is not a valid counter-argument and does not at all address the fact that the biggest breakdown in society has coincided with dependency on the leviathian state... socialist or otherwise . Call it progressive if you're more comfortable with that. .

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The bigget crisis in society is when greedy rich guys tank the economy.

Yes it isn't just the socialist state that spends itsself into bankruptcy, republican states have a history of doing the same thing. I think it has something to do with concentration of power in the hands of one person

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

If those job creators would create some jobs and stop sending them overseas to countries that I now have to call to get computer or cell phone problems fixed, that dependency would fade away.

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One of Obama's green energy successes just went to... China.

Chinese company buys battery maker that got recovery funds

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Originally Posted by talaniman

The bigget crisis in society is when greedy rich guys tank the economy.

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And yet you reelected them.

FYI...

Dem Senators Ask Delay in Medical Device Tax

Why? Raising taxes costs jobs? Really?

Rich guys aren't elected or re elected, and the right is as corrupt as the left when it comes to being greedy, or helping the greedy rip us off.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Rich guys aren't elected or re elected

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The 50 Richest Members of Congress (2011)

1. Rep. Michael McCaul (R-Texas) $294.21 Million
2. Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.) $220.40 Million
3. Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) $193.07 Million
4. Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D-W.Va.) $81.63 Million
5. Sen. Mark Warner (D-Va.) $76.30 Million
6. Rep. Jared Polis (D-Colo.) $65.91 Million
7. Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-N.J.) $55.07 Million
8. Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.) $52.93* Million
9. Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) $45.39 Million
10. Rep. Vern Buchanan (R-Fla.) $44.21 Million
11. Rep. Jim Renacci (R-Ohio) $35.87* Million
12. Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) $35.20 Million
13. Rep. Rick Berg (R-N.D.) $21.60* Million
14. Sen. Bob Corker (R-Tenn.) $21.18 Million
15. Rep. Rodney Frelinghuysen (R-N.J.) $20.35 Million
16. Sen. James Risch (R-Idaho) $19.78 Million
17. Rep. Gary Miller (R-Calif.) $17.45 Million
18. Sen. Claire McCaskill (D-Mo.) $17.00 Million
19. Rep. Kenny Marchant (R-Texas) $16.45 Million
20. Rep. Nita Lowey (D-N.Y.) $15.46 Million
21. Rep. Richard Hanna (R-N.Y.) $13.73** Million
22. Rep. Mike Kelly (R-Pa.) $11.90* Million
23. Rep. Trent Franks (R-Ariz.) $11.60 Million
24. Rep. Scott Rigell (R-Va.) $10.69* Million
25. Rep. Diane Black (R-Tenn.) $10.63* Million
26. Rep. Tom Petri (R-Wis.) $10.60 Million
27. Sen. Lamar Alexander (R-Tenn.) $10.38 Million
28. Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) $10.35 Million
29. Sen. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) $10.28 Million
30. Rep. Carolyn Maloney (D-N.Y.) $10.14 Million
31. Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner (R-Wis.) $10.14***Million
32. Sen. Olympia Snowe (R-Maine) $9.88 Million
33. Sen. Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) $9.84 Million
34. Rep. Tom Price (R-Ga.) $9.43 Million
35. Rep. Nan Hayworth (R-N.Y.) $9.35* Million
36. Rep. Shelley Berkley (D-Nev.) $9.29 Million
37. Sen. Herb Kohl (D-Wis.) $9.23 Million
38. Rep. Lloyd Doggett (D-Texas) $8.53 Million
39. Rep. Blake Farenthold (R-Texas) $8.51* Million
40. Rep. John Campbell (R-Calif.) $8.44 Million
41. Sen. Ron Johnson (R-Wis.) $8.18* Million
42. Rep. Steve Pearce (R-N.M.) $8.03* Million
43. Sen. John Hoeven (R-N.D.) $7.94* Million
44. Rep. Fred Upton (R-Mich.) $7.93 Million
45. Rep. Bill Flores (R-Texas) $7.71* Million
46. Sen. Jeff Bingaman (D-N.M.) $7.41 Million
47. Sen. Kay Hagan (D-N.C.) $7.06 Million
48. Sen. Ben Nelson (D-Neb.) $6.56 Million
49. Sen. Johnny Isakson (R-Ga.) $6.47 Million
50. Rep. Randy Neugebauer (R-Texas) $6.21 Million

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7 of the top 10 are Democrats, imagine that. How many times combined have they been elected I wonder? Or are these guys not rich enough to qualify as rich and greedy?

Just looking after their interests