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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Yep... NK's got me there. His health care is free. He's giving most of what he earns to the government in taxes

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Wrong. I keep most of what I earn. Did you not read my post?

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

he gets to wait on line for just about everything medical

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Absolutely not, another one of your lies.
Read up on American wait times though.

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

but his health care's free.

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I just explained it to you above, are you dim? You are the only one who repeats that it's free. We pay for it from our taxes.

My opposition to the health care being proposed here is that it puts virtually everything evern remotely related to my health and existence in the hands of government bureaucrats.

That is NOT freedom.

And it has nothing to do with Canada, the UK, Australia, etc.

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Originally Posted by galveston

My opposition to the health care being proposed here is that it puts virtually everything evern remotely related to my health and existence in the hands of government bureaucrats.

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Another one of the neocon FUD tactics being repeated. Is your insurance rep making all the decisions concerning your health or is it your doctor?

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Another one of the neocon FUD tactics being repeated. Is your insurance rep making all the desicions concerning your health or is it your doctor?

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At 71, I have very few health issues, but as far as I can tell, the decisions are being made by me and my doctor. I've never been turned down for a test that we felt I needed, and I can say the same for my wife, who has more problems than I do.

If you look at everything that the present bill calls for, it goes FAR beyond mere health care and moves into the realm of HEALTH CONTROL.

That is NOT freedom.

And it's WAY too expensive.

PS: Why should you as a Canadian care one way or the other what kind of health care we have down here?

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Originally Posted by galveston

At 71, I have very few health issues, but as far as I can tell, the decisions are being made by me and my doctor. I've never been turned down for a test that we felt I needed, and I can say the same for my wife, who has more problems than I do.

If you look at everthing that the present bill calls for, it goes FAR beyond mere health care and moves into the realm of HEALTH CONTROL.

That is NOT freedom.

And it's WAY too expensive.

PS: Why should you as a Canadian care one way or the other what kind of health care we have down here?

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Just as an observer, I think NK cares because many of you are bashing the Canadian Health Care system and he/she is defending it based on his/her own personal experience. It's like you don't believe him/her or something? I don't know if a one payer system is the correct answer or not. Mainly because we haven't been informed of the particulars. What I do know for sure though is that the present US system sucks big time. And that is about as eloquently as I can put it. Sad really. So full of gaps, way over inflated cost for services and insurance, limited to those that can afford it or who just happen to have a job where the employer pays part. Lose that job, lose your health ins. Cobra, also too expensive. It's a pathetic joke.

Hello again:

I just wish the Democrats would tell us what they're going to do, and I wish the Republicans would stop lying about it.

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again:

I just wish the Democrats would tell us what they're gonna do, and I wish the Republicans would stop lying about it.

excon

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The Dems put it into those 1100 pages.

I haven't read the full text, but from the excerpts I've seen, it's downright scary. Couple that with the Democrat penchant of growing government and deficits, I fully TRUST them to do what they do best.

And that scares me.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again:

I just wish the Democrats would tell us what they're gonna do, and I wish the Republicans would stop lying about it.

excon

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They HAVE told us what they're going to do. They just don't want to give you the time to read it. They want this 1000+ page monstrosity to be passed before you get the time to find out what's in it.

The bottom line is that Reps aren't lying about what's in the bill, and Dems HAVE told us what's in it. That's why we're so strongly against it... cause we know what it says.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Wrong. I keep most of what I earn. Did you not read my post?

Absolutely not, another one of your lies.
Read up on American wait times though.
I just explained it to you above, are you dim? You are the only one who repeats that it's free. We pay for it from our taxes.

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Regarding American wait times...

Yeah, I definitely think that waiting 4 weeks for a surgical procedure or a theraputic treatment is too long.

But then, what do you call waiting 18.3 weeks for the same treatments?

Or 38.1 weeks for orthopedic surgery?

Or 27.2 weeks for neurosurgery?

These were the averages in Canada in 2007.

I'm not lying, NK. I have sources for every factual statement I make.

And if my statements spread fear, uncertainty and doubt, perhaps that is what the public should be experiencing before they decide to go along with this insanity. Fear, uncertainty and doubt are good tools to keep you from doing something stupid. Fear, uncertainty and doubt are what are going to make sure we look before we leap.

As if "fear, uncertainty and doubt" aren't what the libs were spreading with regard to Bush for 8 years, and with regard to Palin now. At least we have factual information back up our positions... like the wait times in Canada and the UK for one.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

At least we have factual information back up our positions... like the wait times in Canada and the UK for one.

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Hello again, El:

The problem with your "facts", is that you got 'em off that repudiated flow chart. So, your facts, AIN'T facts - they're PROPAGANDA.

excon

Ex, we don't need Republicans to lie about it, the Dems are lying about it enough themselves, they've perfected the art of the Trojan Horse. That's how they won Congress in 2006 and they haven't changed their ways since.

Here's Obama in his own words on what his plan is...



Here's Barney Frank and Harry Reid on the goal in mind.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, El:

The problem with your "facts", is that you got 'em off that repudiated flow chart. So, your facts, AIN'T facts - they're PROPAGANDA.

excon

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No, I get them from the bill itself.

The chart is simply a flow chart of where the money will go, who will provide services to whom, and who is in charge of which agencies. It is a confusing mess, which is my point, but it doesn't give any information about how the plan would operate or how much it would cost.

For that information, you would need to go to the bill itself... which you are afraid to do, because you're afraid of finding out that we're right and your wrong. Though you really should be used to it by now.

As for my facts... like I say, I've always got a source for my factual statements. You tried to call me on not having a source last week, and you got your head handed to you. Haven't you learned your lesson yet?

Elliot

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

ex, we don't need Republicans to lie about it, the Dems are lying about it enough themselves,

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Hello again, Steve:

I agree. You don't NEED to lie about it, so I don't know why you DO. But, you absolutely DO.

I went to the link you posted: HOT AIR where it says "Barney Frank: Yes, a public plan will lead to a government takeover of health care". But, THAT ISN'T what Barney Frank said. That's the HOT AIR people twisting it to say what THEY want it to say.

The fact is, single payer isn't a "government takeover of health care", any more than medicare was. That is propaganda, pure and simple.

It's a GREAT political phrase, though, and I think it's working. But, it AIN'T true.

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:

I agree. You don't NEED to lie about it, so I don't know why you DO. But, you absolutely DO.

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I'd challenge you to list the lies I've spread about Obamacare but I don't think you can name even one.

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I went to the link you posted: HOT AIR where it says "Barney Frank: Yes, a public plan will lead to a government takeover of health care". But, THAT ISN'T what Barney Frank said. That's the HOT AIR people twisting it to say what THEY want it to say.

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Let me put it in context for you. He's being questioned by someone from Single Payer Action, advocates for "single payer" health care, on why he won't just come right and push for it. His answer is to tell them he supports it but doesn't have the votes, "I'm all for it, I'm a big sponsor" are his words. He then says, "I think if we get a good public option it could lead to single payer and that's the best way to reach single payer. Saying you'll do nothing until you get single payer is a sure way never to get it."

He is flat out saying this is the first step to single payer health care. Where's the lie?

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The fact is, single payer isn't a "government takeover of health care", any more than medicare was. That is propaganda, pure and simple.

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No? This is coming from the guy who insists government being in the room with you and your doctor is no different than what we have now with insurance? You're slipping ex.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:

I agree. You don't NEED to lie about it, so I dunno why you DO. But, you absolutely DO.

I went to the link you posted: HOT AIR where it says "Barney Frank: Yes, a public plan will lead to a government takeover of health care". But, THAT ISN'T what Barney Frank said. That's the HOT AIR people twisting it to say what THEY want it to say.

The fact is, single payer isn't a "government takeover of health care", any more than medicare was. That is propaganda, pure and simple.

It's a GREAT political phrase, though, and I think it's working. But, it AIN'T true.

excon

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Yes, Medicare. I'm on it and it is working. But for how long?

Isn't that the one that is so badly broken that Washington doesn't know how to fix it?

There are already some doctors that will not accept medicare, I think.