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Should people be allowed to secceed from a country?
A vote was taken, the result is a little questionable but undenieably a large percentage of the population wants to change their allegiences. Should they be allowed to without international interferrence? tell you true, I'm not interested in fighting a war over preventing people from leaving if they want to
Easy for Putin to get the vote he wanted when he had his special forces there to guarantee a fair election. I like the Putin doctrine. Maybe the ethnic Chinese in mineral rich Siberia have similar desires to break away from Rodina.
We did that already over here. About a century and a half ago. It wasn't pretty.
Yes you would like the Putin doctrine, it sits right beside preemptive strikes. We all know the only thing attractive about Crimea is water and Putin would like to get even with some upstarts. I seriously don't know what the problem is, the Ukraine is an artificial country fought over for centuries by various empires and counter traditional to Europe which clings to the idea that ethnic groups should have their own country. I don't see this as any different to the breakup of Chechoslovakia, remember them, or Yugoslavia but I wouldn't like to see war as a result as we did in the BalkansQuote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Huh ? Have you forgotten that the Black Sea Fleet has been stationed there for years ? That Khrushchev ,an ethnic Ukrainian himself ,gave Crimea to Ukraine in 1954 even though it had been Russian by conquest over the Ottoman Turks in 1774 (annexed in 1783 )? The Russian majority population is not a recent development .Quote:
. We all know the only thing attractive about Crimea is water and Putin would like to get even with some upstarts.
Neither do I ... In the case of the Balkans ,we fought a war against Serbia ,to carve out a piece of Serbia that is now called Kosovo. Not much different than what Putin is doing now.... except perhaps there will be a lot less blood shed and destruction . So it's kinda cynical to start talking about territorial integrity now . Like I said ,Putin should be concerned that his ally China might have territorial ambitions of it's own ,where ethnic Chinese are the majority .Quote:
I don't see this as any different to the breakup of Czechoslovakia, remember them, or Yugoslavia but I wouldn't like to see war as a result as we did in the Balkans
Crimea, by voting yes to russia, gave them better healthcare, better paying jobs, and, gosh, being able to eat properly was a big plus. And what would you vote for if you thought you could have all of these issues satisfied and your children could have decent food ?
Most of us here have plenty, and share with foods banks, at least they do where I live.
I wonder what we will hear if Quebec is able to disassociate with the rest of Canada and loose their privileges sustained over centuries and healthcare. This isnt so far off topic that needs considerable thought and it is closer to home. The Premier of Quebec, Marois, may come knocking on your door US.
Quebec would have to knock on France's door to have any sympathy, they speak French, remember.
Tom you have echoed what I was saying it is only attractive because of the water, unfrozen water and yes ethnically the people are Russian for the most part. I don't have an issue with people who are an ethnic majority doing their own thing, I personally think the NT in Australia becoming an aboriginal country would solve a lot of problems, see how they fair when you put all those loafers together, I can just see them defending themselves with nullanullas, boomerangs and spears from the asylum seekers but I digress.
call me a rebel if you want but I think a great disservice was done in your country when a war was fought to keep it together when there were people with unreconcilable views wanting to secceed. I think a great disservice would be done to the people of the Ukraine if a war was fought to keep Crimea or the russian speaking people in the east of the country if they want to leave and Europe should know a war would be economically devastating as it would cut the flow of gas. What has happen there so far has been relatively peaceful as revolutions go and that should be respected
There was no ethnic divide in the US .Nor was there an oppression against the Southern states . If anything ,it was the Southern states that were practicing oppression . Nor would there have been a war if one or more of the original states had decided to secede prior to the adoption of the Constitution. The rational certainly ended with the expansion of the nation . The new States territory was either purchased by the treasury of the United States ,or in the case of Texas ,was purchased with the blood of Americans.
Do you really think that the northern states should've just let them walk away ?
Revolutionaries pledge their lives to the cause for a reason. Just as it is an inherent right for oppressed people to fight to free themselves ,so do they forfeit any claim of protection granted to them by being a citizen of the country they rebel against .
The truth is that the constant compromising to keep the states unified allowed the South to dominate the national government in the years before the war, and enact laws that were favorable to keep an institution that was abhorrent to the majority of the nation intact . That was a fine deal for the south as long as the north acceded to the arrangement . But the north was becoming more populated and the political tides were turning against the south and their peculiar institution. So the south said "we are taking our football and going home".
Bottom line is that the South signed on to the contract called the Constitution ;and there is NO provision in it for the nation's disunion. Perhaps there was a peaceful solution ,but demagogues on both sides made it impossible Blood was spilled over the issue long before the war began.
Yes Tom I know but you allowed West Virginia to secede from Virginia, I don't see how that was different, given your logic a war should have been fought. Anyway that is all history and as I said I think a great disservice was done to your country and that mistake should not be repeated in the Ukraine, not after the people of Crimea have voted for secession. I know the idea that Putin should come out on top grates with you being the "leader" of the free world and able to impose your will but fact is you can't, it is all hot air and posturing and Putin knows it.
You talk about oppressed people fighting, well the people of Crimea feel they are oppressed and yet you would deny their right to fight or leave. Democracy is only a word where you live, you have so much of it you wouldn't recognise it if it bit you on the bum
I have taken no such position on Crimea. Here is the time line for you lest you forget .. 1st Spetsnaz forces entered the Crimea ,then Putin amassed troops on the border .... THEN the people of Crimea "freely voted " to secede . Perhaps that indeed is their free will. But we will never know since the outcome was guaranteed at the point of a gun.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
I have taken no position in support of intervention. I just think it would be schadenfreude to see the Chinese carve out a piece of Siberia under the Putin pretext. As you know ,your buddies in Beijing are not shy about taking what they want from their weaker neighbors.
yeh good luck with that on both counts, I can't see the chinese taking over Siberia but I can see the russians taking over Crimea
There is little the West can do other than political pressure and economic sanctions. Maybe the rest of Ukraine will consider joining The EU and NATO, but that would anger Russia and they could threaten to cut off oil and gas shipments to Ukraine and Western Europe. Hope it doesn't affect the stock markets too much.
the armaments stocks should boom and hey presto a new market for US Oil and Gas, I should worry too much the US will ride a resurrgance based on war profits it always has
Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Ok then how about the Uighurs and Tibetans voting to secede ? How about the Kurds in Iraq ,Iran ,Turkey and Syria ? How about some Chechen separatist move ?
Where does your scenario end ? The Basques ? Venice ? Quebec and Scotland ? Do you really see a serious scenario where these ethnic groups carve out their own independent nations from existing governments peaceably ?
Maybe you think the reconquista movement in the US should be allowed to peacefully carve out the Southwest US from the country ? Maybe Russia can reclaim Alaska ,and the French the American midwest.
You have always argued in favor of border integrity . What changed ?
Border integrity is important and shouldn't be given away on a whim but let is examine the case, the Ukraine is an artificial construct and the Crimea was an automonous region a republic anyway so the people of this region have voted enmass. I applauded when East Timor won freedom from Indonesia on exactly the same grounds, and Scotland will shortly vote to determine whether they should leave the UK, don't have a problem with it since the people had no say in the union in the first place. maybe Quebec should leave Canada if they feel strongly enough about it, and maybe the territories you took by conquest from Mexico should be given back to the hispanics, solves your illegals problem. I know the whole issue creates a problem for Israel, but let the UN solve that one, they created it. we have to face the fact that there are peoples in the world who should have their own country if that is what they want and they represent a majority in the region, why should there be war because ancient boundries have been disturbed by conquest and the people want reunification, It happened in Germany, should happen in Korea
When I speak of border integrity I'm speaking about invasion, no country should be subject to invasion and that goes for Ukraine, the US, Australia, Europe
we are really getting tough now. Sec State JF Kerry announced that US has frozen Putin’s Netflix account, effective immediately.
yes your polies talk a great line of bull, and maybe Kerry is setting himself up for another run. The whole Russian parliament told you to put them on the sanction list. If that wasn't up yours! I don't know what is. History is against you, you support the Jews taking land which was historically theirs, you should support the people of the Crimea for the same reason, but no you are two faced in your international dealings and we have to ask how much racism is involved here. Favouring Slav v non Slav, or religious favouritism, Catholic West v Orthadox East. i think this time Putin has got your number
Yes, I know they speak french, actually a patois. I live next door to them. France already had them, probably doesn't want them, and wouldn't know what to do with them anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Both sides have to tone down the rhetoric or they could stumble into places they don't want to go and can't back out of . Obama owes Putin one or more due to the fact that he conned Putin into accepting a no-fly zone in Libya ;and used it as a pretext to overthrow Q Daffy . He also owes Putin for bailing his a$$ out of the fire when he painted himself in a corner over "red lines " he had no intention of enforcing in Syria.
The US and Russia have common interests that need to be expanded ;including cooperation in the war against jihadistan ,a resolution of the Iran nuke issue among others . We should back off of thoughts of expanding NATO to the borders of Russia. NATO is an impotent alliance without a purpose anyway. We should instead be looking to a non-aligned Ukraine. That's the best we can hope for without a hot conflict. NATO in Ukraine is a Russian red-line just like Russian nukes in Cuba was for us.
yes this is where the rhetoric hits the road, Europe isn't worried about Russia, it is bad for business to provoke them, only the US could gain from conflict, but you can't afford to fight a war you can't win. You are far away and it would take a long time to build up resources, you cannot rely on your Nato allies, you couldn't in Iraq, even to take Iraq it took months of preparation, Putin isn't blind, he knows this, and besides your taste for war is a little sour these days.Ukraine may become another Hungary or Chechoslovakia unless Obama keeps his head
We call it "joual" <Québécois here>. That's typical of for the worker language, the educated folks speak more "proper: French. Marois will likely be defeated so the whole cycle will continue.Quote:
actually a patois
Yes our Euro 'allies' are a problem . But if we were fracking and giving them an alternative to being beholden to Russia for natural gas ,maybe they would grow some spine.
you couldn't produce enough gas from fracking and the ability to transfer gas in that volume would take years to develop. If there is a crisis they would need a solution in six months, so no joy there. Take a look at the map of Ukraine and the number of pipelines into Europe. Any conflict will bring Europe to a standstill. The Russians know this, thus the move to secure a gas asset
also they want the West Ukraine lands where the shale deposits are located . You see ;while the US gvt blocks efforts to drill ,the rest of the world is full speed ahead .
LOL, with actual production rising here Tom, you think we need to drill baby drill. Relax, we're just going to burn it up anyway. ALL OF IT!!
No thanks to the emperor . We could be the Saudi Arabia of natural gas if our leaders would act to make it so.Quote:
LOL, with actual production rising here Tom,
pipe dreams
You don't like emperors, but want to be a sheik who hoards all the loot in his country? What's this "we" sh1t kimosabe?
he has dillusions of grandeur and former glories, it happens in empires during decline
It's good that Russia was suspended from the G8. I wonder if they could be suspended from the UN security council too, they would lose their veto over UN resolutions. That would send a message to Putin.
This is a storm in a teacup it will all blow over once the righteous outrage is exhausted
no it won't because it won't end there any more than it ended with Putin carving up Georgia.
Obama should really be happy... him and Putin are BFF's.
Tom Georgia is the same argument Putin used in Crimea so your thinking is east of the Dniepnr is Russian territory and Putin will risk everything. He doesn't have the backing of the population in that region, language is one thing and ethnicity is another. These people have long memories, they remember the Russian invader just as they remember the German invader, why do you think the term nazi has arisen again? What is a real problem here is Kyiv is considered sacred ground by the Russians
State Dept gets tough with Putin. I'm sure this selfie will turn the tide :
Attachment 45865
sorry, I don't get it
I'll let an Aussie publication explain it to you
Uproar over senior US official Jen Psaki's 'selfie' support for Ukraine | News.com.au
Yeh like that will be effective
That's not a selfie. Huh, old fogies. LOL
Russia raised the price of gas to Ukraine. Time to fast track US exports to Europe.
NATO Orders End to Cooperation With Russia - ABC News
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