Hello:

America is 7th in literacy, 27th in math, 22nd in science, 49th in life expectancy, 178th in infant mortality, 3rd in median household income, and number 4 in exports.

We are exceptional at only 3 things: the rate of incarceration per capita, the amount of people who believe in angels, and defense spending, where we outspend the next 26 biggest countries combined.

We used to lead the world in those things.. The only way we can do it again is to STOP pretending we still do.

excon

PS> (edited) Ok, I made up the one about the angels...

And it is for these specific reasons that people from China, Japan, India and Korea COME HERE TO STUDY AND LIVE!

So people aren't still busting their humps to get here?

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Originally Posted by ma0641

And it is for these specific reasons that people from China, Japan, India and Korea COME HERE TO STUDY AND LIVE!!

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Hello m:

Well, as long as people are still coming, those numbers are OK, huh?

That doesn't sound so exceptional.

excon

Nice to know you are on a voyage of discovery ex and you are right speech some are and some aren't,

Does it surprise me ? Almost 50 years of hard left central planning and indoctrination . 178th in infant mortality is that before or after abortion is factored in ? Probably not which makes the infant mortality rate much worse.

A little perspective. At one time the American economy was the only game in town . A large part of that was because the world was digging out Post WWII . It was inevidible that the rest of the world would catch up .So it wasn't that our economy was in decline . It was just unrealistic to think the economy would dominate as it had in the past.
I think many of those same factors are at play with some of the other stats raised here. Part of it is decline . But a lot has to do with the world catching up .

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello:

America is 7th in literacy, 27th in math, 22nd in science, 49th in life expectancy, 178th in infant mortality, 3rd in median household income, and number 4 in exports.

We are exceptional at only 3 things: the rate of incarceration per capita, the amount of people who believe in angels, and defense spending, where we outspend the next 26 biggest countries combined.

We used to lead the world in those things.. The only way we can do it again is to STOP pretending we still do.

excon

PS> (edited) Ok, I made up the one about the angels...

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Part of the reason for the decline in education is we have taken a path away from excellence. Shools have changed into baby sitting institutions rather then education and preparation schools. Even now many colleges and university's have to teach high school level classes.

Its time to remove the namby pamby attitudes and go back to those that cause children to exceed our expectations rather then setting the bar to the lowest value.

Some children are going to fail, some will rise above others. Its not a bad thing its part of nature. Another thing is lets stop pushing drugs on kids so quickly. Low expectations is not the answer.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Almost 50 years of hard left central planning and indoctrination .

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Is the right really that impotent that they can't make any inroads into education or government?

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Is the right really that impotent that they can't make any inroads into education or government?

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Slowly ,but there is great resistance . Meanwhile the more enterprising ones open learning centers and do tutoring to teach kids the things they are supposed to learn in school.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Is the right really that impotent that they can't make any inroads into education or government?

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This is where you get under the unbrella of constant compromise. The center gets moved to one side and the situation as a whole becomes unstable.

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Originally Posted by califdadof3

This is where you get under the unbrella of constant compromise.

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yes, I've notice the Repubs 'constant comprise' this electoral season LOL.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

yes, I've notice the Repubs 'constant comprise' this electoral season LOL.

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Michelle Rhee was the chancellor of the Washington DC district from 2007 to 2010. During her tenure she was instituting a variety of reforms based on accountability and results . In doing so she stept on the toes of the entrenched .
She shut down 23 failing schools, fired 36 principals, 241 teachers and cut 121 unnecessary office jobs. She initiated new programs ;and renegotiated the teacher contracts. She supported a voucher system to aid poor parents in giving their children a choice in education. She wrote in an editiorial that vouchers give " poor families access to publicly funded scholarships to attend private schools,"..."All children deserve the chance to get a great education; no family should be forced to send kids to a school they know is failing."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...896954626.html

Well that lasted until the 2010 elections in DC .IT became a referendum on her reforms .The incumbent lost ;and Rhee resigned before she got fired. DC sqaundered a golden opportunity for real change in favor of the failed status quo.

So no ,it is not conservatives that resist change . The established left is the entrenched group that has managed this failure.

I was on Skype last night ( yes I am moving into this century) But I was talking with two college teachers from China, They were telling me how it is America that is far behind in civil rights, and equality for the people. They were telling me how much less the taxes are in China for the people, that race is not a issue, And how women now have better rights though divorce and the such.

Often how we preceive our world is based on where we are at.

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that race is not a issue

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Tell that to the Uighur ,Tibetan ,or anyone else that isn't ethnic Han.

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how women now have better rights though divorce and the such.

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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/07/wo...pagewanted=all

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

I was on Skype last night ( yes I am moving into this century) But I was talking with two college teachers from China, They were telling me how it is America that is far behind in civil rights

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Let's see, China has a two child policy, or is it a one child policy? Or is it a one child policy for ethnic Chinese but they can have two if they pay a fine or face forced abortion? And churches? Got to be official churches, no sharing your faith with others, no house churches? Their civil rights are so confusing.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Is the right really that impotent that they can't make any inroads into education or government?

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I guess you haven't paid any attention to the all out leftist assault the past couple of decades on charter schools, school voucher programs, home schools - anything that might take students out of or siphon money from failing public schools where they can keep them under their spell and support incompetent, entrenched union teachers.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I guess you haven't paid any attention to the all out leftist assault the past couple of decades on charter schools,

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Hello again, Steve:

This post, and the ideology behind it, are the REASON why the numbers are what they are... It further represents the CURRENT state of our politics... "Our way or the highway". Nothing gets done, and our decline continues...

excon

The inertia is in the status quo. There are no new ideas coming from the left on education. It is throw more money into old mortar and brick... and make sure the NEA gets their cut.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:

This post, and the ideology behind it, are the REASON why the numbers are what they are... It further represents the CURRENT state of our politics... "Our way or the highway". Nothing gets done, and our decline continues...

excon

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I have never said "our way or the highway." The left and the NEA (one in the same) just whine and say "we need more teachers," "we need more money," but that experiment has failed which is the reason for this this post. You can't blame those numbers on the right.

Back to basics, dude. Teach them and have standards as opposed to coddling the little farts to keep from damaging their little psyches and doing stupid stuff like sing songs to Obama.

Guess we left behind a lot of kids behind when we had all those years of not leaving them behind. What doesn't work was compassionate conservatism. Now you guys want a severe conservative. Right wing rhetoric is loud, but produces nothing but a mess that may take more than 4 years to clean up.

If the conservatives stop getting in the way as they always do. I mean,ain't things slow enough for you to keep up yet?? You have to do more than holler and blame. Eventually you will have to put money where your mouth is better than you did in the first part of the century.

What you forgot about that debacle? No you haven't, you just choose to blame the janitors, and hide the mops.

Again, no one is clamoring for a "severe conservative" solution to the public school failure, but when we try to put our money where our mouth is the NEA and their "me first" entrenched unionized teachers cry foul. But I already said that.

You want compromise let's compromise, leave the ideology (and Planned Parenthood) out of our textbooks and our classrooms and teach the kids math, science, reading and writing and eliminate this revisionist leftist history. Stick to the facts - you say you like facts but I don't see any evidence of that - and hold children and the teachers to a higher standard.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

and eliminate this revisionist leftist history. Stick to the facts

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Hello again, Steve:

Like these "facts"?? You guys are silly.

excon

NCLB was an attempt at that compromise stuff Tal talks about . The President pretty much adopted a Kennedy intiative . Now they pin it on Bush when it inevidibly fails ;and say the reason it doesn't work is because there was not enough money thrown into the plan. You can recite their meme in your sleep. It's so predictable; so droll.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:

Like these "facts"??? You guys are silly.

excon

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Did I say replace a leftist world view with a conservative world view? No I did not.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:

Like these "facts"??? You guys are silly.

excon

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One of the problems is that it is impossible to understand your own history without understanding the history of Europe first. The whole idea of the Founding Fathers was to break away from a dominant clergy.

One needs to know the reason for the Enlightenment and how people such as Locke and Montesquieu fit into the picture. Once this is done then we can begin to understand the history.

Tut

Like most great ideas, it sounds good on paper, but the implementation is a beeyatch. NCLB was a disaster because like The voter ID law, it was a rushed job that was poorly planned.

We lack balance and flexibility, because that child who isn't a math major, may be excellent in other areas. NCLB destroyed the parts of the school curriculum that were not about math and science, and lead to many cover ups and exploitations to make the numbers look right.

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The whole idea of the Founding Fathers was to break away from a dominant clergy.

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While it's true that many of the original settlers of the colonies fled religious oppression ;it is not true that the founders of the nation were .The King of England had become the oppressor ;the Parliament of England had become the oppressor. You won't find a word in the gripes and grieviences documented in the Declaration of Independence that makes the claim that the Church of England was being oppressive.

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The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Like most great ideas, it sounds good on paper, but the implementation is a beeyatch. NCLB was a disaster because like The voter ID law, it was a rushed job that was poorly planned.

We lack balance and flexibility, because that child who isn't a math major, may be excellent in other areas. NCLB destroyed the parts of the school curriculum that were not about math and science, and lead to many cover ups and exploitations to make the numbers look right.

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So I offer compromise but it's too difficult? Why ask then?

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Originally Posted by tomder55

While it's true that many of the original settlers of the colonies fled religious oppression ;it is not true that the founders of the nation were .The King of England had become the oppressor ;the Parliament of England had become the oppressor. You won't find a word in the gripes and grieviences documented in the Declaration of Independence that makes the claim that the Church of England was being oppressive.

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Hi Tom,

This is correct, but I should expand on my point. My reference to, The Enlightenment was made in light of Ex's reference the curriculum changes. Specifically in relation to the idea that the founders were guided by Christian principles.

The answer is they were not. In fact the opposite is the case. They deliberately set out to make sure that government was based solely on the principles of human reason. That was the whole idea.

No amount of quality teaching can overcome a flawed curriculum. The same type of argument also applies to the reference on evolutionary theory. How can you teach what isn't the case when you don't know what is the case?

Well Tut ,I could give you many founders quotes that dispute that narrative. Suffice it to say that they all had their vision of what a civil and moral society should resemble. The common purpose was first to address their grieviences against the crown;and later to create a functioning Republic philosophically guided by many of the Enlightenment thoughts.(... although not exclusively... don't forget ,much of the disaster that was the French Revolution was also founded on Enlightenment principles sans religious foundation)
So I won't go out on a limb and say that was the only guiding principles ;and it is a mistake for school systems to exclude any of the founding principles from the curriculum .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Well Tut ,I could give you many founders quotes that dispute that narrative.

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Please do. I would be most interested.

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Originally Posted by tombder55

Suffice it to say that they all had their vision of what a civil and moral society should resemble. The common purpose was first to address their grieviences against the crown;and later to create a functioning Republic philosophically guided by many of the Enlightenment thoughts.(...although not exclusively ...don't forget ,much of the disaster that was the French Revolution was also founded on Enlightenment principles sans religious foundation)

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While there are many similarities there we as many differences so it is not a valid comparison. Are you saying the French Revolution had its basis in some type of religious movement?

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Originally Posted by tombder55

So I won't go out on a limb and say that was the only guiding principles ;and it is a mistake for school systems to exclude any of the founding principles from the curriculum .

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So you are saying there are more? What exactly are these 'mores' that need to be included? From a historical and philosophical point of view I mean.


Tut

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Are you saying the French Revolution had its basis in some type of religious movement?

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No the contrary... I think one of it's fatal flaws was that it was anti-religion. Actually it was viciously hostile to religion to the extreme point that they took 16 cloistered nuns and killed them with the guillotine for the henious crime of praying .

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So you are saying there are more? What exactly are these 'mores' that need to be included? From a historical and philosophical point of view I mean.

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I mean there are Christian principles to the founding that should also be taught from a historical perspective .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

No the contrary ... I think one of it's fatal flaws was that it was anti-religion. Actually it was viciously hostile to religion to the extreme point that they took 16 cloistered nuns and killed them with the guillotine for the henious crime of praying .

I mean there are Christian principles to the founding that should also be taught from a historical perspective .

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Hi again Tom,

Perhaps your are right it may have well been a fatal flaw with the French Revolution but we'll never know.

As far as the answer to my questions; the only thing you have come up with so far is the claim that you find it incredulous that there cannot be any religious principles tied up with history and philosophy of the founding. Therefore, on that basis there must be some.

This is exactly the same error that we find in the link Ex provided.

Tut

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Originally Posted by tomder55
Well Tut ,I could give you many founders quotes that dispute that narrative.

Please do. I would be most interested

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"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? Thomas Jefferson (1781, Query XVIII of his Notes on that State of Virginia.)

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We've staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” James Madison [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

“God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” Benjamin Franklin ( Constitutional Convention of 1787)

"I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature."John Adams (letter to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813)

“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports….Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that National morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”
George Washington(Farewell Address 1796)

Here's more :

“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” John Adams

“The only foundation for . . . a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.” Benjamin Rush (signer of Declaration of Independence)

"Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville(Democracy in America)

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Originally Posted by tomder55

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? Thomas Jefferson (1781, Query XVIII of his Notes on that State of Virginia.)

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We've staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” James Madison [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

“God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” Benjamin Franklin ( Constitutional Convention of 1787)

"I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature."John Adams (letter to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813)

“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports….Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that National morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”
George Washington(Farewell Address 1796)

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Ok. Thanks for that. Now we have something to work with.

The next question I would ask is exactly this." How are all of the above accounts transferred into the U.S Constitution?" In other words, what references can you provide in the Constitution that make reference to God; directly or indirectly.

Tut

There is none... but the Declaration of Independence begins and ends with one.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States

I did not imply that they were setting up a theocracy . I'm just saying that they were not guided exclusively by Enlightenment thought; that the nation they were founding also had a firm foundation in Christian principles ;and that that should not be purged from the curriculum

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Originally Posted by tomder55

There is none ... but the Declaration of Independence begins and ends with one.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States

I did not imply that they were setting up a theocracy . I'm just saying that they were not guided exclusively by Enlightenment thought; that the nation they were founding also had a firm foundation in Christian principles ;and that that should not be purged from the curriculum

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Ok, now we are getting somewhere.

It is,"the firm foundation" bit I am disputing. If by this you mean that the majority of the founders were Christian then I agree- most would agree. However, that does not give us licence to translate that into the document itself as having a firm basis in Christianity. You see the difference?

Tut

Yes ,but the founding of the nation was more than the Constitution. It was also the values of the men behind it. If you are telling me that they valued the Enlightenment thinkers and in some cases were Enlightenment philosophers themselves ,I agree. But that was not the sole philosophical foundation. In fact ;neither would be the Enlightenment AND Christianity. They in fact borrowed from the native confederacies of the time too in constructing the government. ALL should be taught and NONE excluded from the education of the children. .

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

You can't blame those numbers on the right.

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Hello again, Steve:

Oh, no??

excon