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Hello:
Recent polls suggest that more than HALF of the Republican party believe that Obama is not eligible to be president because he wasn't born in the US.
If there are any of you here, do you want to come out? We can then have a NICE conversation about it...
excon
What I would like to see is a release on his records like presidents before him have had to do. Rather then millions spent on him trying to hide it. Until then Im on the fence about it. There seems to be too much conflicting information out there. So why not clear the air and get it over with so we can bury it ?
The polls are all over the place, but I am on the record as a non-birther and that hasn't changed.
Citizenship is not where you are born if born to American parent.
But yes, the big deal on not releasing it, does not help but make one wonder
Hello dad:
So, I'll put you in the wondering group... How is it, that you IGNORE the birth certificate on file in Hawaii?
By the way, the $2 million figure is the total amount spent on legal fees for his campaign... Some winger said that it was to defend himself against this, and some other wingers believed it.
However, if legal challenges have been made, they're certainly PUBLIC, and you certainly could refer us to them, couldn't you?
And, I suspect, since I don't believe it's really ABOUT his birth certificate, IF he "cleared the air" with some other document, I'll bet ALL THE GOLD I OWN, that the birthers wouldn't believe THAT document any more than they believe the one he already released.
So, this is one of those "when are you going to stop beating your wife" questions, that no matter HOW he answers it, were he to do so, would be all the PROOF the birthers need that he beats his wife.
Besides, the underlying conspiracy that foments stuff like this, is SOOOO bizarre, that is stretches credulity. To suggest that he is a Manchurian President is laughable.
In the final analysis, he DID release his birth certificate. You just don't believe it. The government in Hawaii says it's real. You don't think they're involved in the conspiracy, do you?
excon
I'm on record since 2008 as saying the birther issue is bogus.
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/politi...te-275470.html
It is a huge mistake for the Republicans to fall into the trap of attempting to make it an issue .
Further, I'm waiting for a Republican candidate to take out the phony Donald Trump... the sooner the better . He's a lefty who's real estate deals usually means someone's property is sacrified to the public good so a casino can be built. It did not surprise me that in the last election cycle his biggest donation was to Rhambo Emanuel.
snopes.com: Barack Obama Birth CertificateQuote:
Originally Posted by excon
Obama Birth Certificate Challenge Turned Down By Supreme Court
And it continues on and on...
Obama: Where have all his records gone?
Hello again, dad:Quote:
Cashill wrote, Khalid al-Mansour, principle adviser to Saudi Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal, lobbied friends like Manhattan Borough President Percy Sutton to intervene at Harvard on Obama's behalf. Al-Mansour reportedly mentored founders of the Black Panther party in the early 1960s.
Your WorldNetDaily article is full of silliness like the one above. This is NOT journalism. It's gossip.
Excon
I didn't know this would morph to his school records. That has much more merit than the birther issue.
It could be that the birther question is a surrogate question for the one on many people's minds regardless of their political leanings... "who is this guy" ? As dad says .it goes beyond birth certificate into a number of things that are considered reasonable disclosure.
Is he the President he told the left he'd be. Protesters in a San Francisco fund raiser beg to differ.
Is he what the right expected ? Yeah and worse .
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
I think you're right. He's not one of us. He's different. He doesn't understand American exceptionalism. His middle name is Hussein, for crying out loud. Did I mention that he's black? Did you see the way he bows to foreign leaders, and then apologizes for the US? Nope. He's unAmerican, all right. Of course, he's a plant. I think he's a Muslim.
But, if he is, I can't figure out why he started a THIRD war against a Muslim country.. Or, why he ramped up the Afghanistan war. That's a war against MUSLIMS. Or why he attacks Muslims with drones in Pakistan. I don't know why he didn't prosecute Bush for torturing Muslims. He thinks holding MUSLIMS at gitmo FOREVER with no trial is a good idea.. I can't figure out that stuff..
If he's not a Muslim, maybe he's a commie.
excon
In the 1st paragraph all I'd concure with is the part about not appreciating American exceptionalism. The part about apologizing for America is an off shoot of that .
I think what is considered the standard birth certificate has been released .
But how do you explain the resistance to the release of his Occidental College records, Columbia University records, Columbia thesis, Harvard Law School records, Harvard Law Review articles, scholarly articles from the University of Chicago, passport, medical records, files from his years as an Illinois state senator, Illinois State Bar Association records... did I miss any ?
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
In my view, the question is, why is it being asked of THIS president? I wouldn't bring it up if I'd have heard the question being asked of any WHITE president. Strangely, I haven't.
excon
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
At this point in time, I only have the very right wing, and the very birther WorldNetDaily saying that it happened. Call me skeptical.
excon
But in fact Bush's college records were released . So were John Kerry's . McCain took some heat for not releasing his Naval Academy records while admitting he graduated 5th from the bottom of his class.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Would you believe the college then ? They say they cannot release his records to the public . This is true .But he can request and release them . He hasn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Occidental College :: Obama FAQs
Like I said... it wouldn't be an issue if people knew who the real Obama is . Everyone else had a long resume of public service to dissect. All Obama had was the 2004 keynote address to the Dems.
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
So, this is as I suggested... The records simply aren't releasable unless Obama does it.
Simply ADDRESSING the issue would give it more legs... Let me ask you this... IF there IS a long form birth certificate, and Obama released it, do you think that would put an END to this?? Really??
I think you're right.. The question the right wing is asking is, "who is this guy"... Releasing documents won't satisfy that crowd.
excon
I don't care about the birth cert. The US needs to seriously look at the Constitutional provision anyway. It was put into the Constitution to deny the possibility of an Alexander Hamilton Presidency. Since then there have been other high ranking officials in and out of the Federal Government who have been denied the possibility of becoming President.
The reason he is President is in my view because he had a razor thin public record available for scrutiny . Going into the next cycle we will at least have a 3 year record as POTUS to scrutinize. I don't think the rest of the stuff I mentioned will be in play except with the Jerome Corsi crowd .
Then he would be addressing the issue, like it's a serious one. Apparently an AP rep and one other individual have gone to Hawaii's office of vital records:Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Index data referred to in HRS §338-18 from vital records in the State of Hawaii is available for inspection at the Department of Health’s Office of Health Status Monitoring at 1250 Punchbowl Street in Honolulu. The public will be asked to provide identification and sign in to inspect the names and sex of all births, deaths and marriages that occurred in the state. Data are maintained in bound copies by type of event with names listed alphabetically by last name.
The index data regarding President Obama is:
Birth Index
Obama II, Barack Hussein
Male
What would releasing college papers prove?
Aren't you even curious ? Forget the tin foil hat stuff like the speculation he got financial aid as a foreign student. I'd like to see his thesis ;his authored submissions to the Harvard Law School and as a professor in Chitown . It would give some insight ;just like his candid comments on open mike are quite revealing .
Just like his comment that the founders screwed up by writing a Constitution without 'positive rights' .
Maybe we could compare writing style against his 1st autobiography .
It is outrageous that he is so guarded with things that should be automatic for a man who claims to aspire to a transparent administration. Let's have some transparency then.
Insight into what? In college, I wrote a sympathetic paper on the stigmata. Does that make this Protestant a closet Catholic? In library grad school, I wrote a paper on how the traditional paper card catalog is a transitional object. Does that tell you more about me?Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Guarded? How do papers written when one is in his teens and twenties have anything to do with who he is in his forties?Quote:
It is outrageous that he is so guarded with things that should be automatic for a man who claims to aspire to a transparent administration. Let's have some transparency then.
If he produced them, then you would sit back in your recliner and say "Thank you. Now I'm happy"?
With all due respect;with the exception of anything from his Occidental days ;the rest of them are graduate thesis ; law school submissions to a major law journal that he was editor of ,and papers that most others publish in some form (many professors are required to publish often )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publish_or_perish
I think ;just like Elena Kagan's law school writings ;it would give tremendous insights into his thinking .
Those papers were written twenty or more years ago. We already know his "thinking," so what more would you hope to learn?Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
What revelation did you get after reading her papers? One headline -- "Papers reveal Kagan's lighter side." Had you watched the confirmation hearings, you would have picked up on that right away.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
That means you saw the headline and not the paper ,or a serious critique of it .Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
“To the Final Conflict: Socialism in New York City, 1900–1933”
http://www2.nationalreview.com/dest/...cea7807a50.pdf
In it she attempts to understand why a radical socialist party never emerged in the US . Her conclusion I belleve reveals much about her at the time of the thesis .
"In our own times, a coherent socialist movement is nowhere to be found in the United States. Americans are more likely to speak of a golden past than of a golden future, of capitalism's glories than of socialism's greatness. Conformity overrides dissent; the desire to conserve has overwhelmed the urge to alter. Such a state of affairs cries out for explanation. Why, in a society by no means perfect, has a radical party never attained the status of a major political force? Why, in particular, did the socialist movement never become an alternative to the nation's established parties?"
She determines that the reason the Socialist Party never caught on in the US was internal conflict.
"Through its own internal feuding, then, the SP exhausted itself forever and further reduced labor radicalism in New York to the position of marginality and insignificance from which it has never recovered. The story is a sad but also a chastening one for those who, more than half a century after socialism's decline, still wish to change America. Radicals have often succumbed to the devastating bane of sectarianism; it is easier, after all, to fight one's fellows than it is to battle an entrenched and powerful foe. Yet if the history of Local New York shows anything, it is that American radicals cannot afford to become their own worst enemies. In unity lies their only hope."
From that one can conclude that at the time she was sympathetic to radicalism . From that one can look at her body of work to see if her position evolved .
We do not have a sufficient body of work from the President to make such an evaluation. He hides his past . We already can see his rhetoric is not consistent although when he is caught in a moment of candor it is very revealing .
Her conclusion I belleve reveals much about her at the time of the thesis .
And how old was she then? And how old was she when she was confirmed?
The best thing to do in school is to choose a topic that is so out-there or darned interesting and intriguing, so that you aren't bored with it by Day Two of researching and writing it. Just because I wrote a paper titled, "Is Jesus gay?" doesn't mean I believed it.
In her acknowlegement she said she was inspired by her brother's radicalism and was attempting to clarify her own. Now in my view there is evidence she did evolve . But we have that history for comparison. We don't with Obama.
Americans are more likely to speak of a golden past than of a golden future, of capitalism's glories than of socialism's greatness.
She is comparing apples and apples (glories of one system and greatness of another) in order to further the thesis. She couldn't very well have compared the "glories" to the "pitifulness," could she?
Did you ever write a college or grad school paper?
And we need that because?Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
I tried real hard not to disrespect Bush once I had read he was just another rich frat drunk. Why did that get shared with us?
Yes I did ;too many for my liking frankly . My Sr. thesis was a statistical comparison of the NY State legislatures votes to determine if there were a consistent regional blocks . This was in the early days of computers ,and I spent quite a few hours collecting the data and working with a programmer to feed these self typed programing cards into the computer . When we (he) final ironed out the program ,I was able to evaluate the data and write a 60 page thesis on it . I would've had a much easier time in school now with the resources available on the web. Much of my time was spent travelling to university libraries in the Kansas and Oklahoma area.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Now ; in my time at school I became aware of my fellow political science and history major's beliefs. I have kept in touch with some of them and can assure you that some of them have not deviated in their positions in 35 years. So to say that her positions then are irrelevant is speculation.
Sure she could've if she believed one or the other was a pitiful position. I would never call socialism a great system.Quote:
She is comparing apples and apples (glories of one system and greatness of another) in order to further the thesis. She couldn't very well have compared the "glories" to the "pitifulness," could she?
Real cute .Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
But by the time he ran for President you had 2 terms as a Governor ,his years in private business to evalutate his executive abilities... and yes his college records from Yale and Harvard business school. He was also very candid about his conversion from his wild past to becoming a born again who abstains from alcohol.
Again ;the most you have from Obama is a bunch of present votes in the Illinois Senate ;and a few party line votes in the US Senate while he was preparing for his Presidential run. We had NOTHING but the thinest resume to go by for the position he was elected to.
So what kind of a rabble-rouser in the statistics or political field does that make you?Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
At least by traveling from library to library to do research on note cards, you and I weren't tempted to plagiarize, as is the problem today.Quote:
Much of my time was spent travelling to university libraries in the Kansas and Oklahoma area.
I said that?Quote:
So to say that her positions then are irrelevant is speculation.
But that was the parallel to the first part of that sentence, "Americans are more likely to speak of a golden past than of a golden future." It leads into her thesis statement: "Why, in particular, did the socialist movement never become an alternative to the nation's established parties?"Quote:
Sure she could've if she believed one or the other was a pitiful position. I would never call socialism a great system.
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Sounds like sour grapes to me. You knew this back in '08. He got elected anyway. What's new?
Look. If ANYBODY should be complaining about him, it should be ME. I BELIEVED him when he told me he was going to close Gitmo.
excon
P.S. And "present' votes in Illinois mean "Go back and work some more on it."Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
This time around we have a record to compare against .Quote:
What's new?
Hello again, tom:
And, you'll take your best shot. The shooter, however, has yet to be revealed.
excon
When were the nominees in the 2008 contest determined?. in the spring of 2008 . I don't know what this rush is to find a challenger . Actually it's the Dems who are anxious to find a challenger to the President . What does that tell you ?
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
I don't know what either side is trying to say... It doesn't matter.. The Republicans hung their hat on the wildly unpopular Ryan plan. THAT is the issue that will re-elect Obama and cause the Dems retake the House.
I don't know who will run against him. Does it matter? The birther thing is just a distraction... Will it go away after he's re-elected? Probably not.
excon
Here was your words.Quote:
So to say that her positions then are irrelevant is speculation.
I said that?
Quote:
And how old was she then? And how old was she when she was confirmed?
The implication is that what was written then is irrelevant in evaluating the candidate today.Quote:
Those papers were written twenty or more years ago. We already know his "thinking," so what more would you hope to learn?
That's your implication, not mine. My words don't support your implication.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
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