Ask Me Help Desk - Wikki leaked again.

Wikki leaked again.

Hello:

I'm all for keeping secret THAT which will HARM my country... In fact, I STILL have my secret clearance, and I have NEVER divulged what I know, nor will I EVER. However, I'm all for exposing THAT which embarrasses those in power. That's because if they did RIGHT, they wouldn't BE embarrassed. In fact, it's my view that a journalists job is to expose the truth.

The righty's think, I suppose, that a journalists job is to keep secrets that enable government... They certainly didn't like it when the Rolling Stone told the truth about McCrystal... And, they ain't going to like this leak any better.

Oh, by the way.. If you didn't know, the leak detailed widespread torture by the Iraqi's on their fellow citizens while WE stood by and did NOTHING. I thought we went there to get RID of that big bad torturer... Or was it WMD's?

excon

Leaking documents that are classified is a crime, and should be prosecuted. There are laws on the books... enforce them.

As you are fully aware if you have ever held a clearance... its not up to you or me to determine what should or should not be considered classified. THAT is left to those in charge. Once they have been unclassified... then they are fair game.

I think we went there for money. We didn't learn anything from South America... or did we? As for the "secrets" who is making these decisions? Throughout the history of the US our military and other US organizations have done things the people would consider unethical. People still debate over dropping the atom bombs on Japan, and that wasn't even "secret"!

Hello smoothy:

So, you're FOR the government keeping stuff secret simply because it EMBARRASSES them? I thought you didn't like the government too much...

excon

Smoothly, there are laws against these secret actions as well(not the secrecy but the ethics). You are basically saying they can do what they want and should be able to keep it a secret. The people making the decisions have to be held accountable for them no matter how secret they are. We should not have laws that give our government the right to commit atrocities and get away with it. Wrong is wrong!

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoothy

As you are fully aware if you have ever held a clearance....

Hello again, smoothy:

The correct word would be SINCE I held a clearance... I'm getting tired of your suggestions that I lie.

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello smoothy:

So, you're FOR the government keeping stuff secret simply because it EMBARRASSES them? I thought you didn't like the government too much...

excon

Classified documents are classified for a reason... and can only be declassified by a select few individuals for a reason... its not for you ore me to decide. You do remember those forms you signed when you got the clearance.

Opinion doesn't come into play here...

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoothy

Classified documents are classified for a reason....and can only be declassified by a select few individuals for a reason...its not for you ore me to decide.

So you trust your government then.

This time they also showed some other things:

Quote:

I SAID BEFORE THAT WIKILEAKS’ JULIAN ASSANGE WAS CLEARLY A TOOL, BUT WHOSE? Well, so far the two biggest scoops from the latest document dump are that the infamous Lancet study was bogus, and that WMDs were found in Iraq in quantity. Neither of these stories is actually news to people who were paying attention, but now — conveniently enough just before an election, and even nicely timed for George W. Bush’s new book release — these stories are getting a fresh round of play.. .

Told you so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, smoothy:

The correct word would be SINCE I held a clearance... I'm getting tired of your suggestions that I lie.

excon

Feeling guilty then? Because YOU said that... not me. Don't put words in my mouth. IF you ever held a clearance simply means you once held one and its no longer active... There are likely people reading this thread that applies to. Most don't follow you to the grave and will be deactivated if they aren't used. And you can have different ones, at the same time.

Because you once had one doesn't mean you have one now or that its active.

YOU were the only person here getting touchy about it.

You did read those forms... nowhere does it give you an option to ignore them if you feel the topics should be discussed or reveled to others NOT in the need to know. Just because an individual HAS a clearance, doesn't mean they have the right to read documents they do not have a need to know about.

And yes... you can get in deep crap for snooping around even without revealing anything to outside individuals even WITH a clearance.

And even if you was written off... non-disclosure agreements stay with you for the period specified in them... some may have a limit.. others are indefinite in duration. And are legally enforcible.

IF the documents were classified... throw the book at those involved, all of them... if they were declassified... then it's a whole different ballgame.

Quote:

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

This time they also showed some other things:

Told ya so.

a) So the Bush administration made secret documents that validated their reason for invasion? Really?

b) if you had read the article it says the "hunt for WMD continued", they found mustard gas which I don't think is a WMD.

Quote:

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Told ya so.

Hello Steve:

So, the leak was GOOD... I would have NEVER known there were WMD's if Assange hadn't spoken out. George Bush is a fine man...

But... If there really WERE WMD's, why would that fine man, George W. Bush keep it secret?? It Would have vindicated him, no??

You guys are silly.

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpg0001

Smoothly, there are laws against these secret actions as well(not the secrecy but the ethics). You are basically saying they can do what they want and should be able to keep it a secret. The people making the decisions have to be held accountable for them no matter how secret they are. We should not have laws that give our government the right to commit atrocities and get away with it. Wrong is wrong!

Then you report them to the right channels.. there will be ways within your organization do do so without causing a breach... if you violate the law in respect to classified documents.. THAT alone will ruin your life or get you a lengthy prison term. Under the law and terms of your security clearance... YOU the individual, do not get to make that distinction. Classified is classified. Legally any disclosure is a breach... and prosecutable. And these people are NOT the people you want to screw with.

smoothy, you do know what happens to snitches in the military right?

Incidentally... the President is one person with the ability to declassify documents... sometimes its done with good reason.. sometimes its not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

You guys are silly.

As silly as calling Bush the liar when virtually everyone, including the UN and countless Democrats believed Saddam had WMD's. As silly as believing the Lancet study? As silly as buying into a health care bill that no one had read? As silly as electing a narcissistic amateur for president? As silly as believing the Tea Party is nothing but racist bigots that threaten our very survival? As silly as believing the gulf spill was going to destroy us?

Yeah, don't talk to me about silly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

As silly as calling Bush the liar when virtually everyone, including the UN and countless Democrats believed Saddam had WMD's. As silly as believing the Lancet study? As silly as buying into a health care bill that no one had read? As silly as electing a narcissistic amateur for president? As silly as believing the Tea Party is nothing but racist bigots that threaten our very survival? As silly as believing the gulf spill was going to destroy us?

Yeah, don't talk to me about silly.

Obama and the Tea Party aren't the subject of this post. The subject is "Wikki leaked again."

For the original version of this see here.
:)

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

smoothy, you do know what happens to snitches in the military right?

Oh yeah... or people that like to push the limits or rules... or not do exactly what they were told exactly HOW they were told to do it... you can't kick their butts like they could 40 years ago... but there are a multitude of ways they can legally make your life a living hell if you don't comport yourself as a proper soldier... by the commands expectations.

A good friend I once worked with was a retired Command Sergant Major... he taught me a lot of tricks I had never heard of before (or even thought of).

Reporting incidents... and snitching isn't always the same thing... but that line CAN be very thin between them at times. There are always repercussions... something to consider before making a report. Many times there is a choice of the lesser of two evils... and Command doesn't tell the lesser ranking people everything... only what they need to know. That makes for a possibility a Trooper doesn't see things in their full context to make a decision about what is and isn't right.

There is some useful information in these leaks ,that although not revelations ,confirm some of the things I've said about Iranian involvement . We have in fact been in a shooting war with Iran for many years now.
The roadside bombs are made in Iran ,and they trained the users. They designed homicide vests for terrorists to use against the troops and the Iraqi people. Many of the so called "insurgents " were professional Iranian operatives of the Qod branch of the IRG. It reports and documents incidents of Iranian intelligence officers fighting alongside the enemy inside Iraqand manning checkpoints with local militias.
There is also proof that the American hikers were on the Iraqi side of the border and were kidnapped by the Iranians.

The soldiers deployed to theater have a right to ask the political leaders of the last 10 years why no action was taken against the Iranian regime especially against their IED manufacturing facilities and their terrorist training camps.

Ex the files also show that there were occasions when US troops did intervene against the Saddam-like torture by Iraqi prison guards ; and the blind-eye policy was eventually and rightly changed.

Julian Assange is a deranged rapist . Nuff said . Yes there still should be secrets. There are operatives on the run in AfPakia thanks to the previous doc dump.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Obama and the Tea Party aren't the subject of this post. The subject is "Wikki leaked again."

Ex changed it to "silly."

American politics is silly be definition so you got me there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello:

I'm all for keeping secret THAT which will HARM my country... In fact, I STILL have my secret clearance, and I have NEVER divulged what I know, nor will I EVER. However, I'm all for exposing THAT which embarrasses those in power. That's because if they did RIGHT, they wouldn't BE embarrassed. In fact, it's my view that a journalists job is to expose the truth.

The righty's think, I suppose, that a journalists job is to keep secrets that enable government... They certainly didn't like it when the Rolling Stone told the truth about McCrystal... And, they ain't gonna like this leak any better.

Oh, by the way.. If you didn't know, the leak detailed widespread torture by the Iraqi's on their fellow citizens while WE stood by and did NOTHING. I thought we went there to get RID of that big bad torturer.... Or was it WMD's??

excon

Personally Ex I think the reasons the US, along with the rest of us, went into Iraq are somewhat confused and if it was with the expectation of removing a middle eastern repressive regime that was very niaive indeed.

I am fed up with spin, ex, and I think many others are also. Many people were killed in Iraq who didn't need to die. Ok no Americans were killed on home soil, but that doesn't excuse the losses in Iraq and the destruction of the country. It would appear that 100 Iraqi might have died for every american killed in 9/11, not justice by any measure, particularly since America was already waging war on the perpetrators and allegedly still is.

Wikileaks has done a valuable service, it has enabled us to see where we have been lied to

So a delusional paranoid rapist ,and a geeky Army Pfc. Bradley Manning know better what should remain classified than the elected Executive of the countries involved in the war against jihadistan ,the leaders of the diplomatic corp ,the chiefs of the intelligence services , and the top military brass??
No thanks . I don't recall Manning's or Jullian Assange's name on any ballot I cast .

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomder55

So a delusional paranoid rapist ,and a geeky Army Pfc. Bradley Manning know better what should remain classified

Hello again, tom:

I say again.. IF what they're hiding EMBARRASSES them rather than exposes SECRETS, then the information SHOULD be exposed, even by deranged people. Period. End of story.

excon

The ad hominems are signs that they don't have a retort with substance.

What they in fact released is a bunch of unvetted documents without content. Little of it is news to anyone who has followed the war.
What's news ? Iraqis are brutal jailers ? No .Saddam had WMD ? No . A lot of Iraqi's have died at the hands of the Iranian and Al Qaeda led "insurgency " ? No. Iran's involvement ? No .

What bothers me is that buried in these unvetted docs is surely similar examples to the last Wiki-dump. Intelligence that does not embarrass but instead puts intelligence assets in danger.
I submit that PFC Mattingly doesn't know jack about the real implications of his illegal theft .

Jullian Assange is so deranged that he couldn't care less. If I were him I'd be paranoid too . There are a lot of brave people on the run today because of his irresponsible ego trip.

NK ,everything I said about both are fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, tom:

I say again.. IF what they're hiding EMBARRASSES them rather than exposes SECRETS, then the information SHOULD be exposed, even by deranged people. Period. End of story.

excon

If there were classified documents... what they actually contain is irrelevant.

There is a big difference between (unclassified) embarrassing documents and Classified documents.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoothy

There is a big difference between (unclassified) embarrassing documents and Classified documents.

Hello again, smoothy:

That would be true IF they DIDN'T classify documents that EMBARRASS them in exactly the same way as documents that are indeed SECRET. But, they DO, and THAT'S the problem.

One is to protect the country. The other is to protect their a$$. I'm not in to protecting a bureaucrats a$$. You?? I guess you are.

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, smoothy:

That would be true IF they DIDN'T classify documents that EMBARRASS them exactly the same as documents that are indeed SECRET. But, they DO, and THAT'S the problem.

One is to protect the country. The other is to protect their a$$. I'm not into protecting a bureaucrats a$$. You??? I guess you are.

excon

Well, look who you elected two years ago... his Birth Certificate, his college records... everything about his past is either classified or under a court ordered seal. Want to talk about what is BS. THAT is what is the real BS.

Fact is... whatever the reason something is classified... its classified. There is no gray area for Joe Average. Yeah certain politicians get away with it... but most of us can and will get sent up the river if we violate the law pertaining to classified documents.

Do YOU want the blood of Soldiers, operatives or agents on your hands because you had this burning need to violate the law for a political agenda? Because often that is exactly what will happen. Plus by the very nature of how this all works... you can't possible know what is tied to what else and how... bits of seemingly irrelevant information usually is the key to figuring out other things... who are you or I or some idiots at wikileaks with an agenda to get our people killed to determine exactly what bits mean nothing or mean something. After all, someone without an agenda saw reason to classify them in the first place.

Word for the day... Compartmentalization. Understand that as it relates to this topic and you understand WHY there is a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoothy

After all, someone without an agenda saw reason to classify them in the first place.

Hello again, smoothy:

We disagree. And, for a Tea Partier, you sure do TRUST the government a whole lot. I don't suffer from that affliction. I NEVER trust 'em! That's NEVER!

If they classified stuff for the sole reason of a COVER UP, then they absolutely HAD an agenda. This leak revealed lie after lie that was told to us during the war. Those lies were told to cover the a$$ of one Donald Rumsfeld and a few others. They were NOT told to protect the country. They were told to FOOL us.

I, for one, want to KNOW about that. You, not so much.

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, smoothy:

We disagree. And, for a Tea Partier, you sure do TRUST the government a whole lot. I don't suffer from that affliction. I NEVER trust 'em!! That's NEVER!

If they classified stuff for the sole reason of a COVER UP, they they absolutely HAD an agenda. This leak revealed lie after lie that was told to us during the war. Those lies were told to cover the a$$ of one Donald Rumsfeld and a few others. They were NOT told to protect the country. They were told to FOOL us.

I, for one, want to KNOW about that. You, not so much.

excon

Did you even bother looking up comparmentalization and how it relates to classified documents? If you had you would understand the risk a single document can cause. Its really not that difficult to understand so give it a try.

Clearly your political agenda means far more than the lives of those a leaked document can put in danger.

But who cares if people die as long as you can try to use something to further an agenda? Right?

War is hell, people die... always been that way, always will be.

Turns out this time Assange ,sensitive to the charges I've made about the last data dump decided that he was qualified to act as the editor of this batch of documents and did his own redacting prior to their release.
The question then becomes :what other information did he choose to extract from the final copy ?
The bottom line is that it is neither Assange' or PFC Mattingly's call.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoothy

But who cares if people die as long as you can try to use something to further an agenda? Right?

Hello again, smoothy:

Surprisingly, you got this one just right... Ceptin about the care part. I care if people die. And, you're right about having an agenda. You're just wrong about what it is.

My agenda is to SAVE lives AND my country. Here's how. I believe that, from this day forward, MORE lives will be SAVED than will be lost, IF the TRUTH about the mistakes we made in past wars, is revealed. You? Not so much.

excon

From the great Victor Davis Hanson.

Quote:

Had the public known in real time from periodic media leaks about operational disasters surrounding the planning for the D-Day landings, intelligence failures at the Bulge or Okinawa, or G.I. treatment of some German and Japanese prisoners, the story of World War II might have been somewhat different. But then, in those paleolithic days FDR and Winston Churchill did not have to be flawless to be perceived as being far better than Adolf Hitler.

WikiLeaks? Selective Morality - Victor Davis Hanson - National Review Online

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, smoothy:

Surprisingly, you got this one just right... Ceptin about the care part. I care if people die. And, you're right about having an agenda. You're just wrong about what it is.

My agenda is to SAVE lives AND my country. Here's how. I believe that, from this day forward, MORE lives will be SAVED than will be lost, IF the TRUTH about the mistakes we made in past wars, is revealed. You? Not so much.

excon

So... you care about those aiding the terrorists... and don't give a hoot about our troops and those who are helping us... because its THOSE people you (for supporting wiki-leaks criminal violations) are going to get killed... is your political agenda THAT important you want Americans and people helping us killed... Wikileaks isn't helping us, they are VERY anti-American... they are helping Iran and the Terrorists they are supporting.

Personally I find that disgusting and morally reprehensible. Breaking the law and providing Classified documents to the enemy NEVER helps us.

After all, exactly what capaity makes these crimiunals experts in what can and can not be declassified? OH, right... they DON'T have that capacity... OR knowledge.

Personally... I hope they ALL get locked up... See, I read the documents I had to sign... and I also understood WHY the system is the way it is. I take it seriously.

Zero Sympathy here... I hope they get IRS audits every year for the rest of their lives... They wanted to dance... time to pay the piper. They will now have the very people you don't want to upset... ticked off with them.

Quote:

Personally I find that disgusting and morally reprehensible

In Assange' case it's espionage.In Mattingly's you can add treason to the charge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomder55

From the great Victor Davis Hanson.

Hello again, tom:

From the GREAT excon...

You righty's STILL have a problem with the language. These weren't "operational disasters" or "intelligence failures". They were outright LIES! Big difference!

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoothy

So...you care about those aiding the terrorists...and don't give a hoot about our troops

Hello again, smoothy:

I wish you could read better, or maybe had a better grasp of the issues, or maybe weren't so fast to cast aspersions... In fact, it's YOUR agenda that's driving your posts - not your brain.

Over 4,000 AMERICAN men and women have been killed in Iraq. Since we now know the TRUTH about the lead up to the war, and our conduct in it, we're probably not going to do that again. Had the TRUTH been revealed BEFORE we went in, more than 4,000 AMERICAN'S would be alive.

That's what TRUTH does. I don't know what's so hard about that to understand...

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, smoothy:

I wish you could read better, or maybe had a better grasp of the issues, or maybe weren't so fast to cast aspersions... In fact, it's YOUR agenda that's driving your posts - not your brain.

Over 4,000 AMERICAN men and women have been killed in Iraq. Since we now know the TRUTH about the lead up to the war, and our conduct in it, we're probably not going to do that again. Had the truth been revealed BEFORE we went in, more than 4,000 AMERICAN'S would be alive.

That's what TRUTH does. I don't know what's so hard about that to understand....

excon

Really... Gee, my agenda is follow the law and throw the book at people who break it and release classified documents to our enemies... which is exactly what Wiki-leaks is doing... as well as the d1ckless wonders that gave the documents to them.

THere IS no gray area... the Documents were Classified... these COWARDS and terrorist lovers broke the law... I honestly hope they all get life in prison.

After all, if there was nothing in them then why didn't Obama have them declassified... He is the all knowing omnipotient Messiah... its hard to find someone that hates the Military and our Soldiers more than he hates them... It would have been in his interest... or is there something here that's REALLY important you are missing... like because you never read the forms you HAD to sign to get a clearance or even get it renewed. You know its in there along with that thing about being subjected to random drug and urine testing... etc. and yeah... right where it details the penalties and legal action you would be subject to if you violate the terms you signed on to.

YOU aren't in grade of determining what should or shouldn't be declassified. The fact remains it is... and legally that's ALL that matters. Try driving pass a stopped schoolbus at 90 mph without stopping just because you don't think you should have to... see how far that gets you in court.

And it only gets far more touchy at higher levels of clearances and classification levels. But you have a clearance you should know all of that already.

Incidentally... YOU were one of those saying we should not be in Iraq OR Afghanistan... because there are soveriegn nations... you know, Like Germany and Japan were, then exactly WHY do you think we should have done anything when they were torturing Terrorists... or is there Hypocrisy there on your part?

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoothy

You know its in there along with that thing about being subjected to random drug and urine testing...

YOU aren't in grade of determining what should or shouldn't be declassified. The fact remains it is.....and legally thats ALL that matters.

Hello again, smoothy:

Well, it isn't ALL that matters... What matters MORE is the bedrock values of our nation. When our leaders betray them, somebody has to tell.

excon

PS> I was in Vietnam.. They didn't have no stinkin drug tests then..