Ask Me Help Desk

Ask Me Help Desk (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/forum.php)
-   Current Events (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=486)
-   -   The end of commerce (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=331312)

  • Mar 19, 2009, 11:15 AM
    ETWolverine
    The end of commerce
    Hello folks.

    We are seeing the beginning of the end of thousands of years of history taking place in America today. The end of commerce as it has been practiced since before the birth of Jesus.

    Commerce, by its very nature, is based on the inviolability of contracts. People make contracts (written or otherwise) and they gain from each side holding up their end of the contract. If one side or the other violates the contract, the system breaks down and the transaction is unable to be completed. Often this ends up in front of courts whose job it is to uphold the contracts and enforce them. In cases where the contract cannot be enforced, damages occur, and one side or the other loses something as a result of the failure of the contract. That is how business works.

    The basis for that whole system of trade is the inviolability of the contract. Without that assumption, there can be no commerce, because who would trust someone to fulfill their side of the bargain if contracts were not inviolable. If anyone could break a contract at any time without any penalty, loss, etc. there would be not trust between trust partners. Commerce REQUIRES that contracts be honored to the letter.

    What I have been hearing recently from our government disturbs me greatly, because what I have been hearing about is that contracts should no longer be considered binding and inviolable.

    Take the recent news with AIG. According to some members of our government, the contracts that AIG made with their employees for bonuses should no longer be binding. Regardless of whether you believe that the compensation of the employees was excessive or not, they were based on legally binding contracts. Yet certain high-ranking government officials want to eliminate those contracts as being binding.

    Another example: Congress has recently been talking about giving courts the legal power to revise mortgage contracts at whim, or even dismiss the contracts completely. In other words, if someone walks into court and says that they can't afford their mortgage payments, a judge would have the authority to change the interest rate, amortization shcedule or any other part of the contract they want to change, regardless of what that would do to the lender. The contracts would no longer be binding.

    If these things come to pass, it will end commerce as we know it. If contracts are no longer binding, then there can be no trust between business partners. Without trust, the commerce system cannot function.

    Without commerce, we all go back to herding sheep and cattle for a living... and not even that good a living, because we won't be able to trade for more sheep and cattle. Farmers won't be able to sell their produce. Loggers won't be able to contract for shipments of wood. Forget employment contracts, nobody will trust an employer to pay what they promise to pay without a system where contractual agreements are honored.

    Without contracts, EVERYTHING ceases to exist. Without contracts there are no businesses. Without business, there is no technology. Without technology, we cannot survive as a modern society. There will be no medicines... who would produce medicines in mass quantities if they aren't sure they are going to get paid for their products.

    It would be the end of everything.

    Even a nuclear war wouldn't cause this level of devastation. Survivors of a nuclear holocaust would continue to trade with each other if they knew that they could trust each others' contractual agreements. Eventually, society could rebuild itself after a nuclear holocaust.

    Only the end of commerce could be so devastating, because there is no way for society to recover without the basic trust necessary in commerce. Eliminate that trust and society falls.

    Scary thought, huh.

    Elliot
  • Mar 19, 2009, 11:25 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    Commerce, by its very nature, is based on the inviolability of contracts. People make contracts (written or otherwise) and they gain from each side holding up their end of the contract. If one side or the other violates the contract, the system breaks down and the transaction is unable to be completed.

    Hello El:

    I agree. Contracts are sacrosanct. That's how it works here in the good 'ol USA.

    But, that would include the auto workers too, wouldn't it? Why is it that rich guys contracts are inviolable, but a working stiffs contract can be voided? You guys don't want it both ways, do you? I think you do.

    excon
  • Mar 19, 2009, 11:49 AM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello El:

    I agree. Contracts are sacrosanct. That's how it works here in the good 'ol USA.

    But, that would include the auto workers too, wouldn't it? Why is it that rich guys contracts are inviolable, but a working stiffs contract can be voided?? You guys don't want it both ways, do you? I think you do.

    excon

    I have never said that the agreements with the unions shouldn't be honored. They HAVE to be honored. They're bad contracts, but they are legal and binding.

    However, the result of honoring the contracts is the loss of jobs when the company goes bankrupt. Therefore it is in the best interests of all parties to renegotiate the contracts. Renegotiation isn't violation of the contracts, it is just an adjustment of the terms of the contract, and it happens all the time, usually in the interests of both parties.

    The unions don't have to agree with a renegotiation. That is fully within their rights under the current contract. They can force the companies to pay out the contracts until the contracts run out. In the process, they can cause the companies to go under, create a massive loss of jobs, and make their own situations worse.

    So... you're a union employee. You are getting paid twice the market rate for your work. Your boss comes to you and says, "You can either take a pay cut and work at market rate, or we can lay you off due to lack of ability to pay you."

    Which do you choose. You COULD force them to maintain your salary level.

    Personally, I'd choose to renegotiate, especially in a bad economy where work is scarce.

    Renegotiation. That is what the talks between the auto companies and the unions is all about... renegotiation of the terms of the contracts in the best interests of all parties. Nobody is violating the union contracts. The auto companies are simply asking the unions to consider different terms. So far, the unions haven't budged on the biggest issues. And nobody is forcing them to through the "legal disolusion" of the contracts by the government or the courts. Nobody is holding any guns to anyone's head.

    That's the difference between what the auto companies are seeking from the unions and what Congress is seeking to do with mortgages and compensation contracts. The auto companies want to renegotiate. Congress wants to eliminate the force of the contracts altogether.

    Big difference.
  • Mar 19, 2009, 11:51 AM
    tomder55

    Will do them a whole lot of good if they have their contracts but not their jobs. But OK let them stand on strong principle .
  • Mar 19, 2009, 11:54 AM
    NeedKarma
    Good bye America. :(
  • Mar 19, 2009, 11:59 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    will do them a whole lot of good if they have their contracts but not their jobs. but ok let them stand on strong principle .

    Hello again,

    I'm sorry. You're going to have to explain to me what the difference is between the auto workers and the executives at AIG.

    If the government didn't bail them out, the AIG dudes wouldn't have contracts either. Why aren't THEY being asked to renegotiate them, like you're asking the auto workers to do, or is their principle better than the auto workers principle?

    excon
  • Mar 19, 2009, 01:44 PM
    speechlesstx
    The House - with the help of about half the GOP - passed their 90 percent tax on AIG bonuses. Now we're setting a precedent, whoever Congress finds in contempt they can just slap an extremely punitive tax on them.

    Quote:

    I deplore this confiscatory tax aimed at whoever Congress is mad at today. Right now it's AIG and Fannie Mae; later it will be Merrill and Citibank, and eventually it will be defense contractors, profiteering oil executives, or whomever the Congressional Dems single out as their whipping boy du jour.

    And of course, rolling this ex post tax out at the same time the Fed and Treasury are trying to encourage private investors to partner up with the government to get the credit markets moving again is insane. What investor needs the likely aggravation to follow? Who needs to be hauled in front of Barney Frank a year from now in order to be blasted as a profiteer who exploited our national crisis for his own profit, which Barney will then tax back? Who will be daft enough to come out of retirement as Liddy did to endure the abuse Liddy took?

    If only we had some leaders in Washington.

    MORE: The WSJ is fired up:

    This is all too much even for Rep. Charlie Rangel, the House's chief tax writer, who says the tax code shouldn't be deployed as a "political weapon." He's right. AIG's managers may be this week's political target of choice, but the message to every banker in America, indeed every business in America, is that you could be next. At least we haven't yet seen the resolution that was proposed in the English parliament, in 1720 in the aftermath of the South Sea bubble, that bankers be tied in sacks filled with snakes and tipped into the Thames. But it's still early days.

    I bet after seeing us, George Washington would sue us for calling him "father." -Will Rogers
  • Mar 19, 2009, 04:53 PM
    tomder55
    I am consistent . I think it was negligent for a bailout of AIG to occure without a renegotiation. But since it did not happen I am neither happy about the bonuses ;nor do I think the employees who were given them should be penalized. The gvt. Screwed up in this case.

    The preferred solution was chapter 11 where all contracts would've been subject to review. Asking them to give up the bonuses now is ex post facto or in the case of the way Congress applied it today... ex post punitive with extreme prejudice.

    Now I understand that ex post facto applies in criminal cases and not to civil laws... thanks to faulty logic by SCOTUS... But the principle is the same. What Congress did today sucks . They all passed the bucket list with the bonus exeception language in it. Had they read the legislation maybe it would not have slipped their notice. One thing is sure... it is now clear that Treasury pressured Congress to add the language.

    I say everyone who voted for the tax today ;and anyone in the administration should be compelled to disclose and return all contributions they have received from any institution subject to bail out funding .

    I'm waiting... (cricket sounds)

    As for the autoworkers union contracts ;their companies cannot survive if the contracts are not restructured . The legacy costs has made them uncompetitive for a long time .

    That is not the case with the AIG workers ;these bonuses were retention bonuses . The company thought that these employees were too important to leave. That is why they were offered the contracts.
  • Mar 20, 2009, 05:15 AM
    tomder55

    Quote:

    This is all too much even for Rep. Charlie Rangel, the House's chief tax writer, who says the tax code shouldn't be deployed as a "political weapon."
    He's full of cr*p also . It was his House Ways and Means Committee that crafted the confiscatory tax. He may have been singing that tune initially ;but he led the effort to get the tax on the floor of the house ;gloating that the other 10% will be gobbled up by local taxes.

    Bills of attainder and ex post facto laws are forbidden by Article I, section 9, clause 3 of the Constitution . But why would a tax cheat like Rangel bother reading the Constitution?
  • Mar 20, 2009, 05:33 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    But why would a tax cheat like Rangel bother reading the Constitution?

    Hello tom:

    I would guess for the same reason Eric Cantor, your right wing poster boy, didn't.

    Oh yeah... HE was right there passing this "confiscatory" tax. Bwa, ha ha ha.

    excon
  • Mar 20, 2009, 05:51 AM
    tomder55
    Boehner was right to oppose it. Cantor is too clever for his own good in his logic for voting for the tax. He said that was the price business risk when they take bailout money . That's all well and good ;but there are other ways to demonstrate that .


    (edit)a total of 85 Republicans joined in the majority vote. My guess is that they got caught up in the populist backlash and heard plenty from their constituents before the vote.
  • Mar 20, 2009, 09:13 AM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again,

    I'm sorry. You're going to have to explain to me what the difference is between the auto workers and the executives at AIG.

    If the government didn't bail them out, the AIG dudes wouldn't have contracts either. Why aren't THEY being asked to renegotiate them, like you're asking the auto workers to do, or is their principle better than the auto workers principle?

    excon

    If AIG hadn't been bailed out, the execs WOULD be renegotiating their salaries and bonuses. This is, again, another unintended consequence of government interfering in the natural workings of business and commerce. What you are suggesting is exactly what would have happened in the Jackass-in Chief and the Dumbocrats & RINOs had listened to us conservatives.

    Thanks for proving my point yet again, Ex.

    However, now that the idiots in government have done their damage, there is no legal basis for undoing the contracts. They MUST stand as written, no matter how bad they are.

    Elliot
  • Mar 20, 2009, 09:14 AM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    Good bye America. :(

    Hey, you voted for the guy. Now you got to live with it.
  • Mar 20, 2009, 09:16 AM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    Hey, you voted for the guy. Now you gotta live with it.

    I imagine now people will leave for Canada or Mexico.
  • Mar 20, 2009, 09:21 AM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    I imagine now people will leave for Canada or Mexico.

    That will depend on a number of factors, including how bad the taxes go up, the state of "universal" health care, the cost of basic goods and services vis-à-vis inflation, the price of energy, crime rates, the level of government abuses at every level, and a whole bunch more.

    Personally, I'm holding out for Israel... a Democracy without a Constitution that has more respect for the Constitution than Congress does these days.
  • Mar 20, 2009, 09:23 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    I imagine now people will leave for Canada or Mexico.

    Like that would be an improvement?
  • Mar 20, 2009, 09:27 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Like that would be an improvement?

    Hello again, Steve:

    It would for me. As much as I love my country, I can't afford to live here anymore. Besides, I LOVE tacos.

    excon
  • Mar 20, 2009, 09:50 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, Steve:

    It would for me. As much as I love my country, I can't afford to live here anymore. Besides, I LOVE tacos.

    I LOVE tacos, too... but the very best tacos are right here in Amarillo, Tx. And I'm not kidding... and I've eaten a LOT of tacos.
  • Mar 20, 2009, 09:52 AM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    Personally, I'm holding out for Israel...

    Yup, that's a safe place to raise children. Good choice.
  • Mar 20, 2009, 10:23 AM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    Yup, that's a safe place to raise children. Good choice.

    Statistically speaking, it is.

    The chances of getting hit by a bomb or rocket in Israel proper (not the West Bank or Gaza) is pretty slim. In five years of bombing, despite thousands of bombs and rockets, very few injuries and even fewer deaths have occurred. There's a greater statistical risk of being killed by a mugger in DC than on getting killed or even hurt by a terrorist bomb in Israel. Or for that matter, there's a greater risk of getting killed in a motor vehicle accident than there is in getting killed by a terrorist in Israel. And at least Israel's leaders have their eye on the ball regarding national security, which is more than can be said for Barack "Close Gitmo and Defund the Military" Obama.

    Elliot
  • Mar 20, 2009, 10:24 AM
    NeedKarma
    Call me crazy but I'll choose to stay in a place where there are NO rockets and bombs aimed at me.
  • Mar 20, 2009, 10:44 AM
    ETWolverine

    Fine by me. I'd prefer to stay here too. Bu that will depend on what the guy YOU voted for decides to do.
  • Mar 20, 2009, 11:41 AM
    NeedKarma
    What would he do that would make you leave the USA?
  • Mar 20, 2009, 12:24 PM
    ETWolverine
    Drive taxes through the roof.

    Create penalty-type taxes that take 90% of income away from me.

    Create a Universal Health Care system that isn't universal, doesn't provide health and doesn't care for anyone.

    Eliminate or abrogate the Bill of Rights.

    Drive commerce into the ground and eliminate the concept of contracts being binding.

    Ignore the constitution.

    Allow terrorists to run amok in the USA.

    Create massive debt that destroys the ability of my kids and grandkids to have a good life.

    Drive inflation through the roof so that cost of living is prohibitive.

    Eliminate the ability of common citizens to use energy for their own purposes, as and when they wish.

    Create a class war of massive proportions.

    Place so many regulations on businesses that it becomes a losing proposition to open and operate small businesses.

    Get the idea?
  • Mar 20, 2009, 01:54 PM
    NeedKarma
    Drive taxes through the roof.

    Create penalty-type taxes that take 90% of income away from me.
    That's quite an extrapolation don't you think?

    Create a Universal Health Care system that isn't universal, doesn't provide health and doesn't care for anyone.
    What's the point of implementing a system if if does that? Seriously who would set up a system that does what you say? Hiw can a universal health care system not care for anyone? Or not provide good health for anyone?

    Eliminate or abrogate the Bill of Rights.
    Bush started that.

    Drive commerce into the ground and eliminate the concept of contracts being binding.

    Ignore the constitution.
    Bush started that.

    Allow terrorists to run amok in the USA.
    Sensationalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Create massive debt that destroys the ability of my kids and grandkids to have a good life.
    Bush started that.

    Drive inflation through the roof so that cost of living is prohibitive.
    Bush started that.

    Eliminate the ability of common citizens to use energy for their own purposes, as and when they wish.
    Has something changed there in the last year?

    Create a class war of massive proportions.
    Yes, the neocons do advocate this.

    Place so many regulations on businesses that it becomes a losing proposition to open and operate small businesses.
    It hasn't hampered the small business in other countries. Some regulation would have saved you from your meltdown.
  • Mar 20, 2009, 03:51 PM
    galveston

    I think Elliot's OP shows deep thought and should receive serious consideration by those who make decisions for all of us.

    Given the current make-up of Washington, I can't see much hope of ANY serious consideration requiring an IQ greater than their average shoe size.
  • Mar 20, 2009, 08:46 PM
    George_1950

    I have said before that as Obama makes known his plans for America, that he will become more and more unpopular. I totally agree with the emotions of frustration with Congress and Obama; however, this is not the stiffest test yet for this country. A great indicator will come in 2010; every seat in the House is up for challenge. If the actions and inactions of Obama, Nancy, Harry, Barney, and the Chicago cabal are ratified, then so-be-it: every man for himself. I do not believe ratification of Obama will be the course the voters will choose. 18 months of Clinton were enough in 1994; think what things will be like in July, 2010, after 18 months of this fiasco.
  • Mar 20, 2009, 09:56 PM
    George_1950

    On a much lighter note, an explanation of 'financial crisis' by a concerned father to his son: YouTube - The Financial Crisis Explained
  • Mar 23, 2009, 11:02 AM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    Drive taxes through the roof.

    Create penalty-type taxes that take 90% of income away from me.
    That's quite an extrapolation don't you think?



    Not really. If he can levy punitive 90% taxes for AIG employees, why can't he levy them on everyone else too? That's the precedent he and his Congress are setting.

    Quote:

    Create a Universal Health Care system that isn't universal, doesn't provide health and doesn't care for anyone.
    What's the point of implementing a system if if does that? Seriously who would set up a system that does what you say? Hiw can a universal health care system not care for anyone? Or not provide good health for anyone?


    THAT IS WHAT UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE DOES!!!

    Take a look at any "universal healthcare system" in the world. They don't provide care to everyone... only to those who the bureaucrats say are "worthy" or "best able to benefit" or whatever other criterion they use to make that determination. Those who don't qualify under their criterion don't get the care they want/need. Universality is the first thing to go out the window.

    Secondly, in universal health care systems, there is no CARE given. The system is run by bureaucrats who don't know you, couldn't care less about you, and are sitting in front of charts that tell them what medical services you get.

    And as for the "health" part, universal health care systems don't allow for incentives for the creation of new cures, techniques and systems that would actually make people healthy.

    Just as the Holy Roman Empire wasn't holy, wasn't Roman and wasn't an Empire... just as the Irish Republican Army wasn't Irish, wasn't republican and wasn't an army... similarly, universal health care isn't universal, doesn't provide health, and doesn't care.

    Quote:

    Eliminate or abrogate the Bill of Rights.
    Bush started that.


    I'm not interested in having this argument right now. Suffice it to say that from a legal, historical and moral standpoint, you continue to be wrong about that.

    Quote:

    Drive commerce into the ground and eliminate the concept of contracts being binding.
    This one's already being done. And it is having the very effect that I predicted... the major hedge funds are afraid to go along with Geithner's plan to purchase toxic assets for fear that once the assets start turning around and becoming profitable, the government will penalize them for being profitable and take away their earnings by either breaking their contracts or taxing 90% of their income. And without some form of assurance, the hedge funds won't go for the plan. Unfortunately, there can be no such assurance if Congress can simply make contracts non-binding at will.

    Quote:

    Ignore the constitution.
    Bush started that.


    Again you are wrong about that. At no point did Bush violate the constitution or any of its provisions. In fact, every action he took (which are no different than the actions of his war-time predecessors) was within the legar REQUIREMENTS of the War Powers Act.


    Quote:

    Allow terrorists to run amok in the USA.
    Sensationalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    He has already stated that he's closing Gitmo. The countries that the terrorists actually come from don't want them back. Europe doesn't want them either... despite the fact that they were the loudest voices calling for the closure of Gitmo. As soon as Europe found out that they'd actually have to WATCH them, they refused to take them. So what's left? The only other option is to let them go or put them in another jail. Care to guess which option will be chosen?

    Quote:

    Create massive debt that destroys the ability of my kids and grandkids to have a good life.
    Bush started that.


    Yup. Over a period of 8 years, Bush created a budget deficit of $480 billion dollars. And in less than two months, Obama more than quadrupled it to $1.9 trillion. We could live with $480 trillion. We've done it before. But nobody has ever seen a deficit of $1.9 trillion before.

    Quote:

    Drive inflation through the roof so that cost of living is prohibitive.
    Bush started that.


    What is your basis for that statement? In fact, the inflation rate dropped every month between August 2008 and December 2008. It has risen in January and February.

    It's easy to point a finger at Bush, but inflation didn't start increasing until Obama came to office. Nevertheless, it isn't "through the roof" yet... just modestly higher than under Bush.


    Quote:

    Eliminate the ability of common citizens to use energy for their own purposes, as and when they wish.
    Has something changed there in the last year?


    Yes. Obama was elected.

    "We can't drive our SUVs and eat as much as we want and keep our homes on 72 degrees at all times... and then just expect that other countries are going to say OK. That's not leadership. That's not going to happen."

    Yeah, a lot has changed.


    Quote:

    Create a class war of massive proportions.
    Yes, the neocons do advocate this.
    Oh, baloney. We're not the ones advocating stealing from the "rich" to give to the "poor". We don't advocate "redistribution of wealth". We don't advocate taking over companies because they are making too much money... or for that matter because they are losing too much money.

    "And guess what this liberal would be all about. This liberal will be about socializing … uh, um… would be about, basically, taking over, and the government running all of your companies."

    ---Representative Maxine Waters (D- Calif), May 23, 2008.

    THAT is class warfare.

    Quote:

    Place so many regulations on businesses that it becomes a losing proposition to open and operate small businesses.
    It hasn't hampered the small business in other countries. Some regulation would have saved you from your meltdown.
    Ah... wrong. Every place where government regulation has taken hold of ANY industry, anywhere in the world, that industry has suffered. There is NO CASE IN HISTORY where that isn't true. Furthermore, it wasn't a lack of regulation that caused the meltdown... it was overregulation and government interference in the form of the Community Reinvestment Act, and the creation of Fannie and Freddie. If none of those three things existed, the meltdown would never have occurred, because bankers would have never been forced to make bad loans to people who couldn't afford them. It is government overregulation that created not only the market conditions for this disaster to exist, but also REQUIRED that banks lend in those market conditions under threat of sanctions, penalties and being shut down for not following the rules of CRA.

    Elliot
  • Mar 23, 2009, 11:27 AM
    tomder55
    Universal health care Canadian style . Natasha Richardson bumps her head on a beginners ski slope. She starts to get head aches. After picking her up from the hotel, there was a 40-minute drive to the community hospital, the Centre Hospitalier Laurentien. She did have a CT scan there, and the decision was made within 2 hours to transport her to a tertiary care center, another 2 1/2-hours away in Montreal.

    Would the same have happened in the US ;probalby except that instead of the drive to a center she would've been air lifted by helicopter .
    Quote:

    Montreal's top head trauma doctor said Friday that may have played a role in Richardson's death.
    "It's impossible for me to comment specifically about her case, but what I could say is... driving to Mont Tremblant from the city (Montreal) is a 2 1/2-hour trip, and the closest trauma center is in the city. Our system isn't set up for traumas and doesn't match what's available in other Canadian cities, let alone in the States," said Tarek Razek, director of trauma services for the McGill University Health Centre, which represents six of Montreal's hospitals.
    Did that time cost her her life ? Possibly . The treatment for this was to drill into the scull to relieve the pressure. Valuable time was wasted in the ambulance ride.
  • Mar 23, 2009, 11:37 AM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post

    THAT IS WHAT UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE DOES!!!

    Take a look at any "universal healthcare system" in the world. They don't provide care to everyone... only to those who the bureaucrats say are "worthy" or "best able to benefit" or whatever other criterion they use to make that determination. Those who don't qualify under their criterion don't get the care they want/need. Universality is the first thing to go out the window.

    Secondly, in universal health care systems, there is no CARE given. The system is run by bureaucrats who don't know you, couldn't care less about you, and are sitting in front of charts that tell them what medical services you get.

    And as for the "health" part, universal health care systems don't allow for incentives for the creation of new cures, techniques and systems that would actually make people healthy.

    That is the most uninformed answer I have ever read. Remember that I live in a universal health care environment so I'm in a better place to tell you how wrong you are. Everyone gets care, we have doctors and nurses like you do, we have top class research facilities, the large majority of us will never ever require the services of a lawyer related to mediacl insurance matters.
  • Mar 23, 2009, 12:06 PM
    ETWolverine

    You're in Canada, aren't you?

    The place where Natasha Richardson just died after a 2 1/2 hour trip to the medical center because the medical center that she first went to didn't have any doctors capable of emergency cranial surgery? Because they weren't given authorization for one in that area of Montreal.

    You mean that universal health system?
  • Mar 23, 2009, 12:15 PM
    NeedKarma
    Yup. Even Tom admitted the same would have happened in the US. You can spend your days finding exceptions to every system known to man. I dare you to point me to a perfect system.
  • Mar 23, 2009, 12:16 PM
    ETWolverine

    Also, how long are the lines for a hip replacement where you are? Or a colonoscopy? How many people wait months for surgeries and procedures that would take place within days in the USA? How many medical professionals are there per capita? How many new drugs and new medical techniques are created in a single year where you are?
  • Mar 23, 2009, 12:16 PM
    excon

    Hello Elliot:

    When I was a youngster, I lived in the little ski town of Steamboat Springs, Colorado. We didn't have a doctor capable of emergency cranial surgery, because the market didn't call for one.

    We had plenty of orthopedic dudes, though.

    excon
  • Mar 23, 2009, 12:20 PM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    Or a colonoscopy?

    I waited about 3 months once my doctor sent the request in. All went quite well. As for your other questions I guess you'll have to find someone who has the answers because I don't, I'm not in that field. All I know is I'm happy here.
  • Mar 23, 2009, 12:48 PM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    I waited about 3 months once my doctor sent the request in. All went quite well.

    I'm glad it went well.

    My uncle got the same surgery done in a couple of weeks.

    Quote:

    As for your other questions I guess you'll have to find someone who has the answers because I don't, I'm not in that field. All I know is I'm happy here.
    I'm glad you are happy there.

    But in answer to these questions, I direct you to this article:

    http://www.ncpa.org/pdfs/sp_Do_Other...he_Answers.pdf

    It discusses a number of these questions in detail, including medical outcomes, the effect of a lack of medical insurance on health and on wealth, etc.

    Then, there's this article, U.S. Cancer Care Is Number One - Brief Analysis #596
    Which discusses cancer outcomes in a comparison of the USA, Canada and Europe.

    And the final argument against government-run health care is a simple one... The VA system is a shambles. Medicare and Medicaid are bankrupt. Social security is bankrupt. Every time the government gets involved in providing health care, it fails miserably. What makes you think that any government is capable of handling universal healthcare when they are a disaster in every other area where they provide health benefits.

    Elliot
  • Mar 23, 2009, 01:38 PM
    speechlesstx
    I'm sure you've all heard that stocks soared today on news of "Geithner's plan" to finally purchase a trillion dollars of toxic assets. What you probably haven't heard is this plan appears to have been a vote of "no confidence" in Geithner by the Fed last week.

    Quote:

    Despite the trillions of dollars pouring out of the federal government, neither Wall Street nor the Federal Reserve has confidence in President Obama or Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner.

    In an unprecedented action last week, the Federal Reserve decided to purchase $1 trillion in toxic mortgage-backed securities in order to take them off the books of banks whose assets were so tied up in them that they could no longer lend. The Fed's decision put into action a version of the plan that was first demanded by then-Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson, then legislated quickly only to have Paulson change his mind and not purchase the securities. And the Fed's action apparently was taken after two months of dithering by the Obama administration.

    It was a direct repudiation of the Obama administration’s failure to act to solve the credit crisis: the clearest vote of “no confidence” in the White House since the financial crisis erupted last fall.

    Republican Study Committee Chairman Rep. Tom Price (R-Ga.) characterized the Fed’s action just that way. Price told me, “The Fed just cast a $1 trillion dollar vote of no confidence on the Treasury Secretary. Months into the administration, we would have hoped Geithner would at least formulate a workable plan to stabilize the economy. Hopefully they will learn there is a positive solution out there before future generations lose another trillion dollars.”
    Spin it some more guys...
  • Mar 23, 2009, 01:49 PM
    tomder55
    Quote:

    Yup. Even Tom admitted the same would have happened in the US
    For the record I said it would probably have NOT happened that way in the US because even the most remote areas of the country can afford to provide a medical evac helicopter .
  • Mar 23, 2009, 02:37 PM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    for the record I said it would probably have NOT happened that way in the US because even the most remote areas of the country can afford to provide a medical evac helicopter .

    From this post: Ask Me Help Desk - View Single Post - The end of commerce
    You said:
    Quote:

    Would the same have happened in the US ;probalby except that instead of the drive to a center she would've been air lifted by helicopter .

  • All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:33 PM.