The fiasco known as the "reformed" Health Care Bill has again been delayed by a handful of Republicans who simply can't agree on the best way to screw the poor while massively rewarding the rich. Robin Hood in reverse.

Neither Obamacare nor its repeal/reform are perfect legislation but why not get together and tweak Obamacare which most Americans now approve of? But I don't want to get in a never-ending discussion of the merits of that approach.

What I WOULD like to pose as a question is - What is wrong with the single-payer option? Yes, it's socialism, but so what. Our system is already a modified system incorporating aspects of socialism into capitalism and has been for years. I suspect many who rail about "socialism" do not really understand what it is.

Single-payer works in other advanced countries. Why not America? Anecdotes describing the horrors of single-payer are just that - anecdotes. Cherry-picked to support an agenda. The overwhelming majority of consumers in those countries approve of single-payer. And it solves the basic issue re health care that has caused all this commotion in the first place - its cost.

(As an added thought -- It's hard not to think of Trump as blissfully unaware of the details and nuances of the health care discussion. What he clearly desires is simply to attack anything with Obama's name on it. Trump has never gotten over Obama's humiliation of him at the White House Correspondent's Dinner some years back. Trump sat there at his table and the camera caught him glaring with hatred at President Obama as Obama took apart his ridiculous stands on issues - beginning with the notorious and nonsensical "birther" business.)

NOTHING was worse than Obamacare.. but then.. people that think Canada system is so wonderful, why do we have Canadian flooding across the border to pay out of pocket for stuff they can't get there? And those businesses here on our side of the border are thankful for the extra business.

Your problem is the NIHS, not invented here syndrome, if an american didn't think of it, it can't be good. I live under a single payer system which has been modified many times, but which is accepted by the vast majority of the population, it has at its core a basic benefit for each medical procedure. If the attending doctor wants to charge more they can but they need to make the justification to the patient, on top of this is a layer of optional private insurance which can take care of hospital costs but isn't allowed to fully cover any gap the doctor may impose in the scheduled fee v the fee charged. For those who cannot afford private insurance there is a public hospital system which is free but has limited availability. Urgent cases are dealt with immediately. Premiums charged by private insurers are regulated, however there are many insurers in the market. There are tax incentives for having private insurance and a tax levy of 1.5% of income for the uninsured. Underlaying this is a sophisticated computer system which pays the claims by both patient and doctor so that cash is only exchanged in about 20% of transactions

What this means is the US system appears unnecessarily complex and draconian

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smoothy

NOTHING was worse than Obamacare..

---

Republicans dutifully sabotaged the ACA:

https://www.healthinsurance.org/blog...ged-obamacare/

and insurance companies happily jacked up insurance premium costs.

Quote:

---

but then.. people that think Canada system is so wonderful, why do we have Canadian flooding across the border to pay out of pocket for stuff they can't get there? And those businesses here on our side of the border are thankful for the extra business.

---

What does this have to do with the price of tea in China? Plus, the travel and shopping go both directions. I used to live near the countries' border, and my two (Republican) brothers still do. Trade between Canada and the US is NOT one sided.

If CBO is to be believed 15 million people didn't want health coverage.They enrolled only to keep IRS off their backs. Go ahead read the CBO assessment. The CBO thinks that millions will happily cancel their coverage ; even those who get it for free, when the bill repeals the Obamacare tax penalty on the uninsured. In its analysis of the Senate bill, CBO predicts that repealing the tax on the uninsured would next year induce 7 million people to cancel their individual insurance policies, 4 million to drop their job-based coverage, and 4 million others to abandon Medicaid, even though the government provides it free of charge. Add that to the legions who opted out and decided to pay the penalty and you've got most of the numbers of people without insurance in their report if the bill is enacted . The GOP bill sucks ,but after all the negotiations it will be better than Obamacare .Their mistake was in making the promise that the web of deceit called Obamacare could be untangled in a single legislative move .The single payer system does not work. California proposed it and then ran the numbers and scrapped the idea. They can't afford it . Vermont's single payer shamble went down in flames . The two most progressive states have opted out of single payer systems . The states are the incubators of polices and the two most progressive states could not make single payer systems add up. The VA works under a single payer concept . It has been a national embarrassment for years ;and the scandals of it's mismanagement have been ongoing since 2013 . The flaw in the system is that freebies need to be paid by someone . We haven't seen the big ball drop in the Obamacare system now even though the closing of one exchange after another ,and the bailing out of the insurance companies is a sure sign of failure . The Independent Payment Advisory Board ;modeled after the Brit NICE will start to impose rationing and treatment denials ;just like they do in England .

The single payer system has screwed the American Indian for years .
https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhsi.../#ff4cc0c357eb

Obamacare - and reform efforts by the Republicans - are a Rube Goldberg mess. If the Dems want to say that the Repub version is simply a tax cut in disguise, then the Obama version was simply a tax increase - not quite disguised.

The best thing about Obamacare is that it has forced the debate to the front. There ARE some good things but single-payer is the topic here.


Looked at simply ---------

Almost all modern nations have single-payer - either purely or as a hybrid of public and private.

The costs are much cheaper than the US system.

Measured by things like infant mortality, etc., and other such medical results, they do better than the US.

Measured by access they can be less available than the US - in some cases.

Consumers in the countries with single-payer are in favor of it. About 70-85%.

The VA is single-payer as is Medicaid. The VA's problems are those of management, not the basic philosophy. Medicaid covers a sizable fraction of the nation's children, births, pregnant women, elderly and disabled.

A major obstacle to a discussion of single-payer is the Insurance Lobby. With single-payer, insurance companies are eliminated.

Several states have looked into single-payer but this has been unsuccessful to date. Sometimes it's because of partisan oppositon, sometimes funding. States continue to examine the system.

Since Congress is unlikely to take up the discussion, maybe it could be assigned to a major research university which would examine the proposition from all angles. Such university to be approved by both sides in Congress.

Single payer is limited in it's effectiveness by budgetary concerns and that lack of resources is what causes the huge problems that you cannot just manage your way out of. Not enough doctors, nurses, and manned facilities has always been a problem.

Good luck convincing a capitalist to spend more on anybody, or anything that detracts from HIS bottom line. If they don't do it for the veterans then you know good and darn well the Indians, and ordinary citizens don't stand a chance. What's worse in my mind is cutting those inadequate resources, and expecting some rich guy to spread his wealth instead of feed his off shore bank accounts with huge gobs of money.

Why do you think Microsoft makes it's stuff in China and builds a net around the facility to save the suicidal workers who jump out the windows? I know rich guys have the right to make money by any means necessary, and betch a storm at anybody who stops them from making MO"MONEY.

Lets have single payer, is my view and funded it at a level that allows for the personnel to adequately meet the challenges of providing health care to EVERYBODY! It ain't gonna be cheap for sure, but think of the GREAT JOBS it creates. Well maybe not for insurance companies, but from janitors to surgeons and a bunch of techies, taking care of women children vets and old folks is more profitable down the road than giving Trump and his cohorts MO'MONEY!

Tal you have to get capitalism out of the basics otherwise the population is exploited, no capitalist wants to admit his extortion, but that is what superprofits are. What if your single payer system cost a few billion or even a trillion? It can be recouped through the tax system and it has to be cheaper than obamacare because there will be no deductable

After seeing Trump's tweets on Thursday, is there any reason left to doubt the man is mentally deranged?

Today he wants to totally get rid of Obamacare. He says that's the best way to replace it. Meanwhile, MILLIONS AND MILLIONS WILL BE WITHOUT HEALTH INSURANCE. Need more proof?

The Trump gang wants the NAMES OF EVERY SINGLE VOTER IN THE UNITED STATES AND WHO THEY VOTED FOR !!!!!!

If not impeachment, then Article 25?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by paraclete

Tal you have to get capitalism out of the basics otherwise the population is exploited, no capitalist wants to admit his extortion, but that is what superprofits are. What if your single payer system cost a few billion or even a trillion? It can be recouped through the tax system and it has to be cheaper than obamacare because there will be no deductable

---

I agree. Capitalism, a mighty economic system, just doesn't fit in an effective health care system. Some, too many unfortunately, blindly follow capitalism as though it were some kind of God.

Thou shalt not have false gods before Me.


//My edit 3pm same day. The voter rolls demanded by Trump do NOT show who the voter voted for. They do show name, dob, ss number, party affiliation, and which elections the voter has voted in. I apologize for the error.

Quote:

---

1. Looked at simply ---------
   
   Almost all modern nations have single-payer - either purely or as a hybrid of public and private.
   
   The costs are much cheaper than the US system.
   
   Measured by things like infant mortality, etc., and other such medical results, they do better than the US.
   
   Measured by access they can be less available than the US - in some cases.
   
   Consumers in the countries with single-payer are in favor of it. About 70-85%.
   
   The VA is single-payer as is Medicaid. The VA's problems are those of management, not the basic philosophy. Medicaid covers a sizable fraction of the nation's children, births, pregnant women, elderly and disabled.
   
   A major obstacle to a discussion of single-payer is the Insurance Lobby. With single-payer, insurance companies are eliminated.
   
   Several states have looked into single-payer but this has been unsuccessful to date. Sometimes it's because of partisan oppositon, sometimes funding. States continue to examine the system.
   
   Since Congress is unlikely to take up the discussion, maybe it could be assigned to a major research university which would examine the proposition from all angles. Such university to be approved by both sides in Congress.

---

Medicaid and Medicare are virtually insolvent and will not be able to absorb the influx if boomer retirees .Already many doctors refuse to take on patients on Medicaid and Medicare because of the reimbursement issue . I guess those doctors are greedy capitalist also. Medicaid and Medicate are the best examples of where government single payer will take us . (VA is a different issue .Mismanagement is what you get with huge government being involved in medical care ).Once the realization that it is fiscally impossible to cover everyone with quality care the rationing step will be implemented . At least now we have a say ;we can seek alternative means to take care of our medical needs . What happens when some bureaucrat decides you are not eligible for care that is available ? I give you NHS .Obese patients and smokers banned from routine surgery  in 'most severe ever' rationing in the NHS

The capitalist free market cannot cure the expensive complex health care issues in America, nor can tax cuts for the rich (trickle down economics?) that only exacerbates the problem, and creates MORE economic upheaval, given the current escalations in the military overseas, notably in Afghanistan (How many years?) and Syria, but Russia too pushing boundaries.

Go ahead give Trump and his sycophants a raise off the backs of the Medicaid/Medicare recipients, and take your 40 bucks a month hush money, and see how far that gets you. Didn't learn a darn thing from the Bush years did you?