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    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #1

    Jun 4, 2017, 07:02 AM
    Enough is enough!
    This is what Teresa May said in the wake of the latest London terror attack, and she is right. For years I have said muslims represent a fifth column in western society and where are the deniels of Muslim complicity. There are none because the muslim community know who the hate preachers are, but they don't denounce them, they know who the radicalised are, they know who the ones who have joined the jihadists are, but they don't denounce them. Every mosque and prayer hall are a potential hot bed of jihadism, it doesn't take much to turn an impressional head
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #2

    Jun 4, 2017, 07:11 AM
    I just finished reading her speech. This is my thought .........

    "They are bound together by the single evil ideology of Islamist extremism ";" we cannot allow this ideology the safe space it needs to breed";"we need to deprive the extremists of their safe spaces ".

    Nice to hear another western leader say such things. Too bad she spends too much time saying the ususal pc boilerplate comments and solutions that would require regulating the internet ,and thought. She speaks of defending western values . She has to be careful about which western values she would herself destroy.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #3

    Jun 4, 2017, 07:59 PM
    "They are bound together by the single evil ideology of Islamist extremism ";" we cannot allow this ideology the safe space it needs to breed";"we need to deprive the extremists of their safe spaces "

    Isn't that what I have been saying Tom? But political speeches from candidates facing an immediate election and reality are two different things. I can't see Mrs. May mobilising the military in the manner that must be done. The brits are in a war, being attacked by an enemy within, and there is only one way to deal with this, round up all people on watch lists, recent arrivals from islamic countries or recent islamic arrivals and then start to dig down to find the cells in the mosques. It goes against the nature of western society but profiling is needed
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #4

    Jun 5, 2017, 09:18 AM
    I don't disagree . I expect that if we were being attacked with the frequency that Europe is ;the left here would have a different view of Trump's travel restrictions .
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #5

    Jun 5, 2017, 03:04 PM
    It has to be more than travel restrictions Tom, it has to be a search for those who don't hold our values,
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 38,517, Reputation: 5430
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    #6

    Jun 5, 2017, 03:31 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    I don't disagree . I expect that if we were being attacked with the frequency that Europe is ;the left here would have a different view of Trump's travel restrictions .
    Is Europe being attacked by people who have come into the country as visitors or immigrants from the Middle East?
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #7

    Jun 5, 2017, 03:38 PM
    It is being attacked by muslims, it doesn't matter how they got there, it matters that they are there and apparently have a degree of freedom of movement. The nations of Europe have to push these people out and some have begun the process and what is paramount is protection of the population from attack, not protection of the "immigrants" who come with bogus claims of being refugees. My country inters all who come illegally and it is an effective methodology, but it doesn't stop attacks from those who have been here for years, fermenting their plots, their attacks would have been thwarted if they had been rounded up.

    Preemptive measures are necessary, the citizens of the country have rights
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    Wondergirl Posts: 38,517, Reputation: 5430
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    #8

    Jun 5, 2017, 03:46 PM
    It is being attacked by muslims, it doesn't matter how they got there, it matters that they are there...
    Are they visitors? first-generation citizens? second-generation citizens?

    I don't consider those attackers Muslim. They are incorrectly painting their motives and activities with a religion's brush.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #9

    Jun 5, 2017, 04:05 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Are they visitors? first-generation citizens? second-generation citizens?

    I don't consider those attackers Muslim. They are incorrectly painting their motives and activities with a religion's brush.
    Don't be niaive the "religion" contains the seeds of their radical beliefs, these are a primitive people, who hold no respect for those outside their religion. When did you hear a muslim denounce a fellow muslim for their beliefs and actions?
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    Wondergirl Posts: 38,517, Reputation: 5430
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    #10

    Jun 5, 2017, 04:15 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    Don't be niaive the "religion" contains the seeds of their radical beliefs, these are a primitive people, who hold no respect for those outside their religion. When did you hear a muslim denounce a fellow muslim for their beliefs and actions?
    I'm not na´ve, not after nearly 30 years of being very active in communities that number Muslims among their populations. And yes, Muslims denounce those who use that faith to hate and kill.

    From Haaretz, "It's not Islam that drives young Europeans to Jihad..." by Davide Lerner, 04/06/17:

    With little if any understanding of religion or Islamic culture, young people ... turn to terrorism out of a “suicidal instinct” and “a fascination for death,” Roy says. This key element is exemplified by the jihadi slogan first coined by Osama bin Laden: "We love death like you love life.”

    “It’s the Islamification of radicalism that we need to investigate, not the radicalization of Islam,” Dr. Olivier Roy says, begging the question of why radical youths would choose violent fundamentalist Islam over other destructive creeds to engage in terrorism.

    These “new radicals” embrace the Islamic State’s narrative as it’s the only radical narrative available in the “global market of fundamentalist ideologies,” Roy says. “In the past they would have been drawn, for example, to far-left political extremism.” Half of violent jihadis in France, Germany and the United States also have criminal records for petty crime, [who appear to] have been radicalized without the involvement of the local mosque or religious community, an element that mirrors patterns in the rest of Europe.
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    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #11

    Jun 5, 2017, 05:17 PM
    Must be where you live, they don't do it here
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    Wondergirl Posts: 38,517, Reputation: 5430
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    #12

    Jun 5, 2017, 08:04 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    Must be where you live, they don't do it here
    Do you actually know any Muslims well enough to have a friendly conversation with?
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    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #13

    Jun 5, 2017, 08:49 PM
    Not recently, they exist in the district but don't interact, my problem is with militants and those who hide them
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    #14

    Jun 5, 2017, 09:12 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    Not recently, they exist in the district but don't interact, my problem is with militants and those who hide them
    And what percentage is that of the whole population? My research says about only 2% Muslim population.
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    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #15

    Jun 5, 2017, 11:31 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    And what percentage is that of the whole population? My research says about only 2% Muslim population.
    Yes, that was probably right in the last census (2011), however they are very concentrated in some places where they have taken over whole suburbs. Where I live you see them in the streets and malls even though we are far from population centres. We have about equal populations of muslims and buddhists but we never hear of buddhists involved in anti-social activities, but observing the name of offenders, muslims feature often. We are just dealing now with the latest act of islamist terrorism
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #16

    Jun 6, 2017, 10:13 AM
    Is Europe being attacked by people who have come into the country as visitors or immigrants from the Middle East?
    Does it matter ? Many of the attackers are born of immigrant parents ,and have recently traveled to countries that would be on Trump's watch list . Go to most Paris suburbs and you find the sons of Islamic immigrants who are as radicalized as they come. What difference is it if it's 1st or 2nd generation ? Mordred has been invited into Camelot to take it out from within .

    The Times of London reported that there are around 23,000 'jihadist extremists ' living in England . That is more than they can track . Their resources are being stretched to the point that they had to cancel the Changing of the Guard ceremony so the police that guard that can be redeployed . Now the Bobby is on war footing .
    So now ,instead of taking the fight to them ;Western Leaders like Theresa May opt to taking measures that restrict the innocent's freedoms '.... like regulation of the internet . The loss of the will to fight precedes the loss of resources to use in the fight . It is so sad to see that the nation that fought so hard for it's existence in 1940-44 is surrendering so meekly to an ideology that is very much the equal of what they fought against . They are the canary in the coal mine. They are us 20 years from now if we don't wake up.
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #17

    Jun 6, 2017, 10:28 AM
    Originally Posted by paraclete
    Not recently, they exist in the district but don't interact, my problem is with militants and those who hide them



    And what percentage is that of the whole population? My research says about only 2% Muslim population.
    2% of 2 billion =400,000,000
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 38,517, Reputation: 5430
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    #18

    Jun 6, 2017, 10:31 AM
    "Europe and America are different. America not only has a more inclusive national identity than Europe and a stronger tradition of assimilating diverse groups of immigrants, it has greater protection for religion practice, more practice with religious diversity, and its citizens are more religious than Europeans. Alex Nowrasteh of the Cato Institute also points to important policy differences between the United States and Europe, which afford the U.S. an advantage in integrating Muslims."
    https://niskanencenter.org/blog/musl...ts-assimilate/
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #19

    Jun 6, 2017, 10:48 AM
    If we were experiencing attacks at the rate that Europe is ,this whole country would be singing a different tune.

    Bottom line is that it it REASONABLE to have a temporary travel ban from the nations that have been identified ....not by Trump ;but by the Obama Administration ,...until such a time that a proper vetting process can be put in place. They are nations with failed governments or hostile governments .

    Of course herr Donald opened his pie hole yesterday and undermined his cause and threw his AG under the bus in the process . Still it is reasonable to take such precautions . Some of the attackers in the last 2 weeks returned to England from Libya .
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,321, Reputation: 10855
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    #20

    Jun 6, 2017, 10:59 AM
    Tom your numbers are a bit off.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe

    In the late 20th and early 21st centuries substantial numbers of non-native Muslims immigrated to Western Europe. By 2010 an estimated 44 million Muslims were living in Europe (6%), including an estimated 19 million in the EU (3.8%).[SIZE=2][4][/SIZE] They are projected to comprise 8% by 2030. They are often the subject of intense discussion and political campaigns. These have been periodically revived by events such as terrorist attacks by extremist Islamists, the cartoons affair in Denmark, debates over Islamic dress, elevated crime rates amongst Islamic minorities and ongoing support for populist radical right parties that view Muslims as a threat to European values and ways of life. Such events have also fueled growing debate on Islamophobia, attitudes toward Muslims and the populist radical right.[SIZE=2][5][/SIZE]
    I have no comment on Clete's hate spewn ignorant rant!

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