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Self Defense

Drunk guy starts trouble with neighbor, throws a drink on her, throws a chair at her and hops over the fence onto her porch and proceeds to attack her with punches. When the argument first happened she was slicing an apple so there was already a knife on the table at the time of attack. A knife in which was used and to stab the drunken attacker in the shoulder one time to get him off her not to kill him.. now the attacker has pressed charges on the attacked. Does the neighbor have self defense on her side?

Possibly.

I would go so far as to say probably. But in order to have a better idea, I need the answer to this question:

What state or country?

And also, it depends on certain other things. For example, if he was a 101 year old man weighing 69 lbs. and she was a 21 year old, 210 lb. weight-lifter with martial arts training, it is doubtful that his punches would be considered "deadly force". If so, she wouldn't be justified in using deadly force in self-defense.

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drunk guy was stabbed in the shoulder one time to stop him from punching her not to kill him. The wound was deadly,

I'm a bit confused. If the wound was deadly, how is he pressing charges?

Edit: Ah, I see you edited your post. That makes more sense.

U.s

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Originally Posted by Alty

I'm a bit confused. If the wound was deadly, how is he pressing charges?

I apologize, I just edited my original post.. the wound was NOT deadly, he only received 6 staples.. he was the original attacker.. he threw a drink at her, a chair that hit her and hopped her fence to end up on her porch and started punching her

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Originally Posted by AK lawyer

Possibly.

I would go so far as to say probably. But in order to have a better idea, I need the answer to this question:

What state or country?

And also, it depends on certain other things. For example, if he was a 101 year old man weighing 69 lbs., and she was a 21 year old, 210 lb. weight-lifter with martial arts training, it is doubtful that his punches would be considered "deadly force". If so, she wouldn't be justified in using deadly force in self-defense.

Happened in the U.S.. the drunken guy is about 6'something and 210lbs and the girl he was attacking that defended herself is 5'2 150-70lbs

You need to narrow it down more than just the US. State laws vary so we need to know the state.

Are there any witnesses? Were the police called? Were blood tests taken to determine his level of inebriation? Were criminal charges filed against him?

Somebody really NEEDS a lawyer...

And they need to press assault charges... and everything else that can remotely apply to this case according to the advice of their lawyer..,. they will know exactly what to do... and how to do it.

Exactly how much of a right to defend yourself depends a lot on where this happened...

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

You need to narrow it down more than just the US. State laws vary so we need to know the state.

Are there any witnesses? Were the ed? Were blood tests taken to determine his level of inebriation? Were criminal charges filed against him?

Maryland, yes witnesses, including the girlfriend of the drunk Guy, whom recently had him arrested for beating her up. He was only at the house because he was granted visitation rights with his kids.not sure if much more was done. I'm just hearing about it and trying to help a friend. I do know my friend that was attacked, was told by a lawyer not to turn herself in Or Give a statement. I think holding off is hurting her, it's making her look guilty. I believe the lawyer is making her wait until she decides whether she will hire him. In the meantime, time is passing and the police hasn't heard her side.

If the drunk swore out a complaint and a warrant for her arrest has been issued, she SHOULD turn herself in. She should not wait for the arrest warrant to be served. But she should not say anything to the police without an attorney present. She should simply state that "on advice of counsel she is not saying anything without her attorney present".

You answered one of several questions I asked. Can you provide the rest of the info asked. If you want our help you need to answer our questions.

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Does the neighbor have self defense on her side?

Hello c:

Given the facts as you've outlined them, ABSOLUTELY!

Excon

Self Defense is just that a defense, and just because a person wants too press charges, they can not file charges by theirself. If there is evidence in all of this, if there is not a history of other crimes or a long history of problems with this same person, it is most likely that the DA will not even press charges.

The real issue will be proving that is how the fight happened, How can this be proved.

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

If the drunk swore out a complaint and a warrant for her arrest has been issued, she SHOULD turn herself in. She should not wait for the arrest warrant to be served. But she should not say anything to the police without an attorney present. She should simply state that "on advice of counsel she is not saying anything without her attorney present".

You answered one of several questions I asked. Can you provide the rest of the info asked. If you want our help you need to answer our questions.

I apologize, but I did state that I'm just finding this out. There isn't too much that I know myself. I did answer what state and witnesses, and size of the people. Everything else I am unsure about. I live in a different state than my friend so I wasn't there. I spoke briefly with her and right after hearing the details I have already stated I immediately got online and found this site. Yes your info is VERY helpful and I appreciate all replies, Thank you all so much!

Hello again, c:

For clarity sake, all that stuff about size, gender and state of drunkenness have NOTHING to do with whether a persons can defend themselves... Whoever got STRUCK by the first blow is the person who can defend him or herself, and getting a drink dumped on them IS the first blow.

excon

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Self Defense is just that a defense, and just because a person wants too press charges, they can not file charges by theirself. If there is evidence in all of this, if there is not a history of other crimes or a long history of problems with this same person, it is most likely that the DA will not even press charges.

The real issue will be proving that is how the fight happened, How can this be proved.

I do remember her also telling me, she tried to end it but he just kept carrying on and trying to get things stirred up.. his wife was even trying to get him to stop but he pushed her to the side and that's when he hopped the fence to punch on a lady. Anyway like I said before, he was just charged last month with beating up the wife and was suppose to only be at the house for visitation. The wife says she will testify on my friend's behalf . AGAIN thank you for the replies, it's really a scary situation for my friend and she honestly doesn't know what to do about the lawyer telling her to wait for a warrant. All and ANY info is needed and VERY VERY APPRECIATED!

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, c:

For clarity sake, all that stuff about size, gender and state of drunkenness have NOTHING to do with whether a persons can defend themselves... Whoever got STRUCK by the first blow is the person who can defend him or herself, and getting a drink dumped on them IS the first blow.

excon

Particularly when the person committing the assult (the drunk here) is tresspassing on someone else's proiperty (the victims) when they do it. (that is assuming I understood WHERE this happened correctly)

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Particularly when the person committing the assult (the drunk here) is tresspassing on someone elses proiperty (the victims) when they do it. (that is assuming I understood WHERE this happened correctly)

Yes my friend was out on her porch. The houses are connected side by side, so separating the porches are small, waist high fences. He threw the drink and the chair from his side, but then he hopped over the fence to start punching her.

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Originally Posted by curiosity74

yes my friend was out on her porch. the houses are connected side by side, so separating the porches are small, waist high fences. He threw the drink and the chair from his side, but then he hopped over the fence to start punching her.

Been through something similar... got assulted by two guys... I beat one guy so bad the ambulance had to take them away... they had the nerve to call the state police after they (there was two of them) assulted me...

When the state police saw where they came onto my property it went from the police considering arresting me... to them asking if I wanted to have THEM arrested instead...

I had a period to ask for charges to be pressed against them... since the one was in the ICU ward for a while and crippled up pretty good for quite a while after... and the other kept a WIDE berth after that... I never needed to push it.

She needs a Lawyer... have her try press a number of charges against him... I bet his complaint goes away real quick... in any case... if it's a case of bring it on... she can turn the tables and put him behind bars most likely.

Guy beating up on a woman... she's already starting from a favorible standpoint. Guy beating up on a woman after tresspassing on HER property... her case is really good.

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Originally Posted by curiosity74

she honestly doesn't know what to do about the lawyer telling her to wait for a warrant.

That is different from not turning herself in. If no warrant has been issued, then there is nothing to turn herself in for. If a warrant is issued, then she should immediately contact the local police station and arrange to come in.

But one thing that we NEED to know is whether the police were called and whether there is a police report for this incident. It's a very key point here.

For example, if a police report was done and neither party filed charges, then a warrant may be unlikely, even if the drunk pushes for it.

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

That is different from not turning herself in. If no warrant has been issued, then there is nothing to turn herself in for. If a warrant is issued, then she should immediately contact the local police station and arrange to come in.

But one thing that we NEED to know is whether the police were called and whether there is a police report for this incident. Its a very key point here.

For example, if a police report was done and neither party filed charges, then a warrant may be unlikely, even if the drunk pushes for it.

The police were called but I think it was by a neighbor(not either of the parties), and only the drunk guy gave his statement. The police wanted to talk to my friend but being scared because she defended herself the way she did, she left the house and has not talked to the police yet. She talk to the lawyer first, the next day and that's when he told her to do nothing. As I stated before, I believe it's hurting her now to have waited so long. This all happened on Sunday. I'm going to call her for an update right now. Thanks Everyone!

With respect to the police what she should do is nothing until and unless a warrant is issued. If the police want to just talk to her, tell them she will be happy to talk to them, with her attorney present and she will have her attorney contact them to setup an appointment. If they want to take he to the police station, she should ask if they have a warrant. If they don't she tells them she wants to cooperate, but she has been advised to say nothing without her attorney. Respond the same way to EVERY question they ask.

Once her attorney is there, the attorney will tell her what questions to answer.

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

With respect to the police what she should do is nothing until and unless a warrant is issued. If the police want to just talk to her, tell them she will be happy to talk to them, with her attorney present and she will have her attorney contact them to setup an appointment. If they want to take he to the police station, she should ask if they have a warrant. If they don't she tells them she wants to cooperate, but she has been advised to say nothing without her attorney. Respond the same way to EVERY question they ask.

Once her attorney is there, the attorney will tell her what questions to answer.

I just spoke with her brother and he said, her name hasn't showed up in the system yet and the lawyer told her not to go in because the police probably just want her to come in and then charge her.

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Originally Posted by curiosity74

I just spoke with her brother and he said, her name hasn't showed up in the system yet and the lawyer told her not to go in because the police probably just want her to come in and then charge her.

Again, I agree with that advice. She is the victim here and has no need to go to the police at this time. So my previous advice still stands. Until there is a warrant issued do nothing. If the police come to her, say only that she wants to cooperate but has been advised to say nothing without her attorney present.

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

Again, I agree with that advice. She is the victim here and has no need to go to the police at this time. So my previous advice still stands. Until there is a warrant issued do nothing. If the police come to her, say only that she wants to cooperate but has been advised to say nothing without her attorney present.

Thank you for all your help.. I will definitely let her know all the advice giving.

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Originally Posted by excon

...
For clarity sake, all that stuff about size, gender and state of drunkenness have NOTHING to do with whether a persons can defend themselves... Whoever got STRUCK by the first blow is the person who can defend him or herself, and getting a drink dumped on them IS the first blow.
...

Actually usually it does.

I asked about the state because usually state law spells out in detail when self-defense with a deadly weapon is available.

Maryland seems to be the exception. The only statute I can find is this:

"Md. CRIMINAL LAW Code Ann. § 3-209
...
TITLE 3. OTHER CRIMES AGAINST THE PERSON
SUBTITLE 2. ASSAULT, RECKLESS ENDANGERMENT, AND RELATED CRIMES
...
§ 3-209. Defenses
A person charged with a crime under § 3-202, § 3-203, § 3-204, or § 3-205 of this subtitle may assert any judicially recognized defense."

In other words, it is a matter of case law.

Who landed the first blow may or may not be pertinent. What it comes down to is whether, considering all the circumstances, it is reasonable for the woman to use deadly force (and a knife is deadly force) to defend herself from punches. That's why I asked about such things as relative weight.

To repeat my extreme example, a very puny aggressor and a very powerflu and martially competent victim of the punches, might make the court decide that it was not reasonable for her to use the knife in self defense, even if he hit the first blow. But OP answered, making it evident that no such extreme situation applies. Therefore it is likely that she can claim self-defense.

Hello again, lawyer:

Nahhhh.

excon

There are some cases, where the size is a issue, and if it gets to court, that can be addressed, but it all normally comes down to who hit who first, and the most important issues, 1. why where they in this situation, and the most important issue of all, 2. WAS THERE ANY WAY TO RUN OR GET AWAY, she will need to explain why she could get the knife laying there and he did not, why knife was there, (exactly where knife was) and was there any point and time, she could have ran a way, like a break in the fight

It depends where you live, in places like Canada and the UK the justice system can be really stupid and prosecutors love to persecute the victim. The victim is often considered the bad guy if any weapon is used and the attacker is injured. In those situations you should tell the police that you were attacked, your life was in danger and you stopped defending yourself as soon as you were no longer in danger. You should ask for a lawyer before you make a more detailed statement.

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Originally Posted by earl237

It depends where you live, in places like Canada and the UK the justice system can be really stupid and prosecutors love to persecute the victim. The victim is often considered the bad guy if any weapon is used and the attacker is injured.

First, do you have any studies to back up that statement? While I'm sure it does happen sometimes, I doubt if its as common as you make out here.

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Originally Posted by earl237

In those situations you should tell the police that you were attacked, your life was in danger and you stopped defending yourself as soon as you were no longer in danger. You should ask for a lawyer before you make a more detailed statement.

NO, she should not make ANY statement except under advice of counsel. Nor should she make any statement without counsel present.

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

First, do you have any studies to back up that statement? While I'm sure it does happen sometimes, I doubt if its as common as you make out here.

Unfortunately, it is very common for the assault victim to be charged for defending themselves. Look up the following people for more details.

In the UK - Tony Martin

In Canada - Ben Taylor, Lawrence Manzer, David Chen, Ian Thompson, Alexandru and Marius Truta, Brian Fox, Joe Singleton

I didn't say it didn't happen, but you are citing 8 cases. I'm sure there are thousands of similar cases where this didn't occur. My problem here is you are making a blanket statement condemning the judicial systems of several countries without sufficient supporting documentation.

Because it can happen, is why I advised the OP to have the friend say NOTHING without an attorney present.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScottGem

I didn't say it didn't happen, but you are citing 8 cases. I'm sure there are thousands of similar cases where this didn't occur. My problem here is you are making a blanket statement condemning the judicial systems of several countries without sufficient supporting documentation.

Because it can happen, is why I advised the OP to have the friend say NOTHING without an attorney present.

I agree. I spoke with her yesterday and she stated her name is not in the system meaning no warrant. Hopefully the guy sobered up and realized he did wrong and just didn't press charges. I do believe she is sticking to what her lawyer said and that is "do not report in, nor give a statement, w/out him present".

Pressing charges is a common misconception. One cannot actually press charges. They have to file a complaint and the prosecutor is the one to decide if there is enough evidence for charges to be filed.

To Earl. This is in the US, not Canada or the UK, so your case laws don't apply.

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Originally Posted by curiosity74

I agree. I spoke with her yesterday and she stated her name is not in the system meaning no warrant. Hopefully the guy sobered up and realized he did wrong and just didn't press charges. I do believe she is sticking to what her lawyer said and that is "do not report in, nor give a statement, w/out him present".

Well everyone thanks again for all your information.. she was arrested and being charged with first-second degree assault.. so to court she goes. I will definitely keep her trial posted, for anyone else that may need help with a situation similar to this one, and just to be up on criminal laws. Do's and don'ts are always helpful

Thanks for the update!

Did she turn herself in? Was the other person also arrested?

Arrested does not mean she will go to trail, it merely means, that the DA at first glacé believed the evidence presented. In fact, many cases of self defense go to DA, At this point, their attorney will discuss this with DA ( she should not say a word) not give her side of story without attorney. Many people convicted because of a mis said word when they are explaining what happened.

Most true self defense cases, charges are filed, and then dropped.

If not, they will need to show that the elements of crime is not present.

Since she did assult him, most will hang on if she had chance to get away, or not.