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Hello:
Let's say my wife was brain dead and scheduled to be removed from life support tomorrow. I didn't want to wait and pulled the plug today. Am I guilty of murder? If I am, why wouldn't the doctor be guilty, who's going to pull the plug tomorrow?
excon
There is a difference in following rules and not. You not being in the medical profession then you would be working outside the rules. It's the same rules like with abortion. If the boyfriend does it then its murder if a doctor does it then its approved by the state.
Hello dad:
I'm not buying that...
excon
Ex, just being married to you, does not make her brain dead, a saint maybe,
But it will vary by state, each state has specific laws on "end of life"
... and you are shopping for?Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
If you are shopping for a legal response then I am eminently unqualified.
As relates to bio-medical ethics your question is compelling.
I'm on the wrong board to offer an expert response. Just being nosy and intrusive.
Then lets turn the question around. A woman decides she wants an abortion. Which in the state she lives in is legal and she must wait 72 hours for the procedure. So on day 1 she sets it up and has the appointment for 72 hours later. On her way to her friends house the next day she is involved in an accident. It is someone else's fault. And because of it the baby inside dies. Is that murder or manslaughter as determined by the laws or is it no problem because she wanted an abortion anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
You all are talking hypotheticals. There is a lot more that goes into it besides just pulling a plug.
Is this homework? We don't do homework!Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Seriously, the doctor wouldn't be guilty because, we assume, there is a specific law or judicial decree in place which would constitute justification for the homicide.
Your hypothetical says it's an accident. Thus, it is not murder, which of course requires malice aforethought. But yes, it may be manslaughter.Quote:
Originally Posted by califdadof3
Let's do another hypothetical: Excon has been convicted of murder for pulling his late wife's plug. As he is walking down that last mile to the gas chamber, Califdadof3 (who happens to be doing time in the same prison for negligent homicide of an unborn child in an automobile accident) kills him (on purpose). Would Califdadof3 be guilty of murder? Certainly.
Hello Doc:Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBill100
No, you're not. We listen to EVERYBODY over here.
excon
You are guilty of murder because you aren't the medical personnel who are given the authority to pull the plug on the medical device.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Why wouldn't the doctor be guilty? Because presumably you have given your written consent to have the plug pulled.
Who will pull the plug? Actually a plug isn't pulled, but rather the machine is turned off. Only the doctor can turn that machine off.
Again, it depends on what form of life support your wife is on. There are more than one kind.
Hello J:Quote:
Originally Posted by J_9
Hey Nursey. Quit trying to ruin my question with FACTS.
excon
Well... you still love me doncha? What's wrong with facts?Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Hello Nursey:Quote:
Originally Posted by J_9
Of course I do, but this is NOT a fact based question.. I didn't actually pull the plug.. She left me before I could..
excon
But if you pulled the plug today, as in your original question, how could she have left you before you pulled the plug?
Were you married to David Copperfield perchance?
Hello again, Nursey:Quote:
Originally Posted by J_9
Like I said - NOT a factual inquiry. What DOES interest me, though, and YOU are the PERFECT one to tell me, is there a law that says a doctor can pull the plug and NOT be exposed to legal ramifications.
excon
Wow - "pull the plug"? Why doesn't everyone who has ever had to sign the order taking a loved one off life support raise his/her hand, and we can all vote on whether the wording in this thread is callous.
You asked, Excon - how would you "pull the plug"? Remove the trach with your bare hands? Rip out the feeding tube? Rip out the IV's? Pull out the catheter?
Or would you administer the fatal drip?
I don't object to the question. I don't know if it's a good or bad question. Legally that person is alive until that person is pronounced dead so, yes, "pulling the plug" would be murder, at least in my eyes.
I've heard every religious argument about removing someone who is brain dead from life support over the last four years so, yes, I have an opinion on when PHYSICAL death occurs. MENTAL death, well, that's for a Doctor (or Doctors) to determine.
"Pull the plug"? Certainly there are better, less flippant ways to address this question.
And, yes, I'm raising my hand as a person who had to make this agonizing decision and, yes, after all this time the phrase "pull the plug" still sickens me.
If the next of kin signs the consent for removal of life support the doctor is not exposed to legal ramifications.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
I dealt with this issue with my father before he passed. We did indeed choose to "pull the plug" so to speak.
In the original question Judy, the person has been pronounced brain dead. This means that there is zero chance for recovery.Quote:
Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
Hello Judy:Quote:
Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
I spose there is, but I was just being my usual flippant self. I DIDN'T mean to offend.
excon
A few years ago we were asked to consent to 'turning off the machine' and letting Mom pass. Being the oldest I was asked by the doctor and the nurses to lead in the decision, they ask me three times. She was dying but not her mind. I was seriously considering saying yes but I wanted to talk with her first although she could not respond verbally.
She opened her eyes and looked at my sister and me. I said 'Mom if know that we love you very much please blink your eyes twice... she did.
That changed my mind immediately and no one was going to make me do anything.
Two hours later she passed.
I'm happy and relieved for anyone who doesn't have to sign the papers, make the gut wrenching decision. I can only address my own experience.
I was asked multiple times if I wanted to remove my husband from life support. Multiple times. They tested and tested and tested and determined he was brain dead and it was hopeless - meanwhile I watched this big, strong, vital man, much to young to die, convulse on a several-times-a-day basis, his body packed in ice bags, his arms strapped to the bed, machines pumping oxygen and fluids in and out of him.
Did I ever think I would stand at his bedside and pray for his peaceful death? No. Did I? Yes, I did.
I also asked him at the end. I didn't get an answer or eye blinking... or anything else.
So I signed the papers. And, yes, I still have nightmares.
lol!Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Judy I feel your pain in what you wrote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogrann
Thanks - that means a lot to me. There are nights when despite everything that has changed in my life since that time, much of it for the good, that I still second guess myself.
I preach living wills, do not resuscitate orders, talking to your loved ones every chance I get.
My husband had all of those in place BUT the ambulance attendants didn't read them so they "brought him back," the hospital "couldn't find the paperwork" so "they brought him back" - and it was beyond my control until my Attorney stepped in.
And I will pay a very sincere compliment to J9 and all the RN's out there. When the Doctors fumbled for words (they knew my husband personally) and hugged me and told me to hang on the Nurses are the ones who explained the tests, explained what was happening, helped me through a very difficult time. They were the unsung heroes.
Judy... you just made me cry. Thank you for the compliment.
And yes, we do cry with our patients and their families through these though times.
You have made me think.. I think Hubby and I shall sit down tonight and write up something to give to our family doctor. I do not want to put him in that situation during a stressful time.
Essentially, the question you are asking is can you murder a corpse. Brain death means actual death. This applies legally and medically. It isn't like a coma or a vegetative state. It's death. There are no tricky "right to die" questions.
However, your dead wife would typically only be left on a ventilator if she has declared that she wished to donate her organs after her death, so deactivating the equipment used to keep her tissue oxygenated would demonstrate an insensitive disregard for her wishes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hexian
Not in my area - where was your experience that a person who is brain dead is removed from a ventilator, only remaining on the ventilator if there is a "wish" to donate organs?
This is the opposite of my personal experience.
And I am told if you are Jewish you are alive until your heart stops so that issue enters into the discussion.
Trust me - I've walked this path.
In the United States, unless there are specific religious objections, a dead body is only ventilated long enough for the family to make a decision on organ donation. By her "wish" I meant if she had signed an organ donor registry or granted durable power of attorney, which are legally binding regardless of the family's (in this example, the husband's) intent.
Orthodox Judaism is about the only time that cutting ventilation to a corpse is a controversial issue. Many Muslims and some Christians don't consider death to have officially occurred until the heart has stopped (consequently, they consider heart donation to be murder), but they do consider it permissible to end ventilation on a person with a complete loss of neurological function.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hexian
This was NOT my experience. Please post your research or knowledge. What does "typically" mean? Usually? Sometimes? Now and then?
I had to get an Attorney to take my late husband off the ventilator.
I was told by an Orthodox Rabbi that death was unnatural until/unless my late husband's heart stopped of its own accord... and that "own accord" did NOT include life support measures.
This is not my experience either. I know of a child that was born over 15 years ago that is still on a vent from the date of birth.Quote:
Originally Posted by hexian
I have found that discussions on this subject end up with a lot of what people have heard and read. Actual experiences are very, very different - and I don't know why that is.
It's because of "them." You know who "they" are Judy. Right? It goes like this...Quote:
Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
Well "they" say that blah blah blah. No one has actually ever identified the group of people that go by the name of "they." :p
Priceless! The sad part of this discussion - and you work with life and death every day so I'm sure it's no surprise to you - is that when you've actually experienced this pain, this terrible decision, it's difficult enough... and then everyone knows how "it" works because "they" told them and, of course, the person who actually had the experience MUST be wrong.
Sad and it never ends.
No it never ends. It's surprising how many "nurses" I have met who have never gone to nursing school but have no problem telling me how I'm doing everything wrong when their loved one is in labor. You know why? Because they watch those shows like A Baby Story and One Born Every Minute!
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