I was pulled over for a traffic stop for no (legal) reason. I intend to use this in court to get my tickets dismissed or from what I have read "quash arrest". I understand that a stop without probable cause or reasonable suspicion is illegal and any arrest made after that is invalid (just as evidence gathered without a warrant would be).

So far, I have plead not guilty to the tickets and now I will be given a court date before the judge with the arresting officer present. During the stop, I made no statements to the officer, I used my right to remain silent, so unlike most traffic tickets, the officer does not have me on record proclaiming my guilt for anything.

I need some tips on how to present my case in court and how to ask for the arrest to be quashed.

Speaking as someone who has been in traffic court more times than I can remember over the last 30 years, and won most cases outright... or succeeded in getting charges reduced.

#1, where are you located, Country and state. Laws and regulations aren't universal even within a country in many cases.

#2. At least in the USA. Traffic Court isn't criminal court. A ticket is a fine... not a criminal charge. Incarceration is NOT a punishment except only in specific situations. Such as DUI, DWI, Driving on suspension, etc... usually its fines and points and/or suspension. Driving is a privilege, not a right.

#3. What exactly were you accused of? Probable cause can be interpreted rather broadly to justify a stop.

You are aware there is not presumption of innocence for traffic charges. You weren't charged with committing a crime since you said "Tickets". You will have to prove you didn't do what you were written up for in front of the court.

If you want tips... you are going to have to give us a lot more information. Every tip you could be given will be specific to a limited situation.

The only universal tip that can be given before we get that info from you... Is don't take any sort of an attitude to the stand... and never accuse the cop of making it all up. Either of those will kill any chance you have before you are able to say another word.

NY, USA.

Uninspected motor vehicle and unlicensed operator. I don't know that it's specifically traffic court, it's just Town Court.

The officer had no way to know or suspect that my vehicle was uninspected, that is NOT why he initiated the stop... so let's get THAT out of the way...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SmilingInside

I was pulled over for a traffic stop for no (legal) reason. I intend to use this in court to get my tickets dismissed or from what I have read "quash arrest". I understand that a stop without probable cause or reasonable suspicion is illegal and any arrest made after that is invalid (just as evidence gathered without a warrant would be).
...

---

As smoothy said, probable cause can be broadly interpreted. But if you were doing something wrong and the officer saw you do it, what evidence may have been gained after he or she stopped you would not be needed to convict you.

Say, for example, the charge is reckless driving. If the officer saw you weaving back and forth, that would constitute both evidence of the offense as well as probable cause for pulling you over. And, in court, the officer wouldn't need to testify as to what you said, or what he or she observed after you were pulled over (thus mooting the issue of probable cause). You would be convicted solely on the basis of what was observed before the "arrest".

_______
Ok, your later post reveals that you are charged with

• Uninspected motor vehicle and
• unlicensed operator.

It seems conceivable that the officer could run some sort of a computer search on your plate, before he pulled you over, to determine if the required inspection was done. If it showed no record of inspection, he would have had probable cause to pull you over, and ask for your DL.

It was just a random pull-over? That kind of thing is allowed in at least some places.

Not showing a current valid inspection sticker is just cause for a stop in every state I have lived. New York doesn't use inspection stickers like most every other state with an annual inspection uses?

And being required to present a drivers license is not optional either when stopped.

I've seen people sent to jail for operating a motor vehicle on a road without a current valid license, literally put in handcuffs at the stand and lead off to booking.

I recommend hiring a lawyer, and let them present the case for you. That is a fairly serious charge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SmilingInside

I need some tips on how to present my case in court and how to ask for the arrest to be quashed.

---

Hello S:

I would, but I don't know what you're basing your position ON. If he searched your car and found pot while stopping you for a broken tail light, THAT'S a case where the evidence will be thrown out. The cop had NO probable cause to look for evidence for a broken tail light IN the glove box...

So, WHAT did you get the ticket for?? WHY didn't the cop have probable cause to stop you??

Once I know THAT, I'll tell you what to do.

excon

Yes, we use stickers. The officer was behind me, he couldn't have seen that the inspection was expired. Even if he was in front of me, he wouldn't have been able to discern that from just passing by.

Unlicensed operator isn't a very serious charge. Aggrivated Unlicensed Operation is the serious one. I have a valid license, it's just fom another state. I guess NY has suspended my driving privilege for an unpaid littering ticket I got a while back. I don't even know if this is true or not, that NY can say that I can't drive here even with a valid out of state license.

I am fairly certain that in NY they cannot tell your inspection status from a plate scan. The car isn't registered to me, so they wouldn't be retrieving any of my personal info and the registered owner is perfectly legal to drive.

If you have a license from another state but are a resident of NY you must obtain a NY license within 30 days of moving into the state. See: NYS DMV - Definition of a NYS Resident

As for whether the cop could have known ahead of time that the car was not properly inspected - he can tell that by running your license plate number throgh the computer, as NY DMV keeps records of all inspections.

You haven't told us what the cop said when he pulled you over. Usually they will tell you why they pulled you over - so what did he say?

He said NOTHING. And I didn't ask.

Sure there are more serious charges... but that isn't an unpaid parking ticket. I have seen people sentenced to jail time for that right out of traffic court.

Incidentally, any state can suspend your driving privileges in that state even with an out of state license. Happens all the time. I know people that have had that happen to them. Only takes one unpaid ticket.

You can usually read the sticker through the back window of the car... I know I can. They also have tag reading equipment that uses optical recognition... the cop doesn't even have to look and if its flagged for any reason... it tells him. They use that here in VA and DC for certain... they even use it to catch people that pass stopped school buses.

For all you know another cop saw the expired sticker and radioed it in. Or you drove past this cop earlier and you just didn't see him. Lots of possible ways.

I still recommend getting a lawyer. YOU will get a better outcome than trying to be Perry Mason. If you try to defend yourself your inexperience is going to be your undoing. They appear to get a lot of joy out of playing with people that try to do that and aren't very knowledgeable.

If you have a clean driving record record and don't tick them off, you MIGHT get a stiff slap on the wrist... but if you tick them off or you have the misfortune of a real jerk in front of you, they COULD slap on the cuffs too.

I think that's a pretty risky gamble to make. There is a lot to lose.

And who said I'm a resident of NY? I know the rules. NY gave me a "client ID #" when I got a ticket for littering. This client ID is essentially a license #. So my "license" is suspended in NY, but I don't HAVE a NY license.

So are you 100% positive that a plate scan-BEFORE I am pulled over-can tell if a vehicle is under inspection or not?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SmilingInside

So are you 100% positive that a plate scan-BEFORE I am pulled over-can tell if a vehicle is under inspection or not?

---

If the car is registered in NY, then yes. Whether that's actually what he did - who knows?

OK, well I could be entirely wrong here, I guess I will have to check for certain what they can tell from a plate scan. I didn't think inspections could be told from that but I could be wrong. I will look into it so I don't make a fool out of myself!

BUT say they can't tell from a scan, do I have any chance of getting out of the tickets if he had no legit reason to pull me over? Also, will I be getting the officer's report so I can prepare for court? And if I AM wrong, can I retract my not guilty plea so I can avoid having to be in court and make a fool of myself?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SmilingInside

what they can tell from a plate scan. I didn't think inspections could be told from that but I could be wrong.

---

They can tell whatever has been entered into the scanner to alert them to -- unpaid parking tickets, outstanding warrants, stolen car, suspended license, expired inspection, or anything that may impact on driver safety.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SmilingInside

OK, well I could be entirely wrong here, I guess I will have to check for certain what they can tell from a plate scan. I didn't think inspections could be told from that but I could be wrong. I will look into it so I don't make a fool out of myself!

BUT say they can't tell from a scan, do I have any chance of getting out of the tickets if he had no legit reason to pull me over? Also, will I be getting the officer's report so I can prepare for court? And if I AM wrong, can I retract my not guilty plea so I can avoid having to be in court and make a fool of myself?

---

You may have to ask them. Or someone from NY familiar with traffic court there can answer. Usually you can change your plea up until a certain time the morning of the trial. But it varies by venue.

I would call them yourself and hear it from them directly.

Sometimes if you can resolve the issue of the unpaid fine the resulted in the suspension of driving privileges before your court date... take proof with you that it has been satisfied. Then they might show leniency.

But I want to stress... defending yourself in court, even traffic court is not easy. You may have it all figured out now... but the moment you are on the stand and sworn in its almost disorienting if you aren't used to public speaking or being in court... if they ask or present something other than you prepared for, and if even one point you are trying to argue gets shot down for being wrong all your plans go right out the window. Along with much of a chance to win.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ebaines

If the car is registered in NY, then yes. Whether that's actually what he did - who knows?

---

And NY could likely issue a fine for expired inspection even if the car is registered in a different state.

I know Washington DC does it.

When posting a follow-up question or info, please use the Answer options at the bottom of the page rather than the Comments.

A cop does not say nothing at a stop. That part of your story does not ring true. In fact, generally the first thing they say is; Do you know why I stopped you?

How much do you estimate it is costing you to fight this ticket? The fact is that you were guilty of the two tickets. Your only defense is that the officer had no right to stop you in the first place. And you don't even know why he stopped you. Good luck with that.

Also as a past officer, ( in GA) I love to show how at least 3 out of every 4 car can be legally stopped in GA.
While GA traffic law varies, some of the things we used to stop cars.
Stickers on any back window ( we can stop it to check if they have clear rear vision.
Those wonderful license plate covers ( the ones that go around a plate) almost all of them cover , at least partially one of the stickers or some plate info. If any of the stickers or wording is even partially covered, they can stop you.
Anything hanging from that rear view mirror, those odor things, cords or charms or something.
And of course my favorite, to check the tint on windows
And not wearing seat belts.

There are so many of those "fluff" laws on the books, to give officers reasons to do traffic stops, or at least to justify it latter if anyone fights it.

But yes, if the car is not registered or inspected it will show up with they run the plate. Many officers do that, run plate after plate that they see.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SmilingInside

... Also, will I be getting the officer's report so I can prepare for court? And if I AM wrong, can I retract my not guilty plea so I can avoid having to be in court and make a fool of myself?

---

You should request it in advance of the court date. I don't know NY specifically, but in many places the prosecution has the duty to disclose this kind of information, or at least if asked.

As far as I know your ticket is all the report that is filed. I seriously doubt if there is anything else filed by the police officer regarding the incident. Yes you should request it, but don't be surprised if they tell you there is nothing else.

Yes, I know police usually say something when they pull you over. He DIDN'T! I was waiting at a traffic light, he was behind me, he lit me up just as traffic started moving. He offered no reason as to why he pulled me over, and as I said, I didn't ask. I was tempted to, but if I had then I'd lose all chance of catching him pulling me over for no reason. I'm from the school of "don't talk to cops", it can only HURT you, even in a traffic stop. I know EXACTLY why cops ask you that famous question "do you know why..", it's to easily and painlessly get you on record admitting to a crime. As in "do you know how fast you were going?"... if you know you were speeding, you typically give a semi-honest answer, less than you were actually going but still over the limit, thereby admitting to the offense and making his ticket virtually ironclad.

Thanks for all the answers.

Scott Gem: On the ticket, you could either choose guilty or not guilty. If choosing not guilty, there was another item you could check requesting supporting deposition. I checked the box, so I'm assuming maybe that means any additional notes the officer made? There was no notes on the ticket, just the standard information-in NY it's a print-out ticket, not the old fashioned kind. If it means what I think it means, I wonder if they will send that report to me when they send me my court date? I will call them to find out, and perhaps I'll wait till I get this information as it SHOULD state why he pulled me over (?) and then go from there.

Everything else aside though. If he states a reason for pulling me over that is untrue or illegal, or states NO reason for pulling me over, then can I win the case or what? All the little details don't really matter to that question. Assuming he had no reason, is what I'm saying, can the tickets be beaten? I mean, if they can't even assuming that, then there's no point in looking further into it. That's ALL I really needed to know in the first place.

Opinion?

Get the car inspected... and get proof of it. Take that to court... they usually dismiss that if its taken care of before the court date.

As far as the unpaid ticket/fine that got your driving privileges revoked. Pay it, whatever it is... petition to have the privileges restored using proof the debt has been paid in full. IF you can get that done before your court date... maybe they will dismiss that too.

Unless you do both of those you have two chances as I see it. Slim and none.

Try and argue with them about what your rights for being stopped are and aren't... and they are going to flex their muscles and make an example of you. And hang you on both. Just because they can.

Just like everyone tells you. Smile and be nice to the cop... save any disparaging remarks until you are in the next county and sure he can't hear you. Same applies to the Judge... try and tell him what the law is and he (or She) will take exception and you lose any chance of leniency.

You may though request of evidence to get a copy of the police officers POST records,

Also yes there is almost always ( at least here in GA) also a incident report or at least a incident card written by the officer that he turns in to his department when he turns the ticket in.

Also there should be a voice recording at the dispatcher of any info he did on the stop.
*** not if they use the in car computer

OK, so the officer only came to my window, I never got out of the car... interesting. So does he have a recording of that? I hope so...

I think your tips are sound. Say I can't financially bring the car up to inspection-what if I should dispose of or sell the car? Is that just as good?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SmilingInside

I will call them to find out, and perhaps I'll wait till I get this information as it SHOULD state why he pulled me over (?) and then go from there.

---

Hello again, S:

I can't imagine you'll win... IF you didn't ASK why he pulled you over, you'll NEVER argue that he pulled you over WITHOUT probable cause... You haven't got the foggiest notion WHY he pulled you over.

Plus, I don't know what information you think you're going to get... Cops DON'T write a police report on tickets... The ONLY written item is the ticket itself. IF you didn't ask, he isn't required to report to anybody what his probable cause was... Yes, of course you can ask him in court... But, you have NO idea what he's going to say - NONE.

excon

True, and I've thought of that... my thought was maybe he'd lie or be put on the spot and flub it... the scenario in which he pulled me over doesn't allow for much on his part, he was behind me, never in front of me, and it wasn't a long stretch of road, so...

Oh, and if I'd asked him WHY he pulled me over, I'd be giving him a heads up so I didn't want to do that... that's why I didn't ask even though I was very curious and tempted!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SmilingInside

Oh, and if I'd asked him WHY he pulled me over, I'd be giving him a heads up so I didn't want to do that...that's why I didn't ask even though I was very curious and tempted!!

---

Hello again, Smiling:

A heads up about what?? That you DISAGREE with the stop? That you're going to fight it in court? Sorry to inform you, but he KNOWS that. Look. I see that you have a strategy in mind, and THAT'S the strategy you're going to pursue...

I figured I owed it to you give you a heads up that your strategy is BONKERS.

excon

PS> (edited) Look. I don't disagree with your reluctance to SPEAK with the cop. I understand HOW the cops do things. I know EXACTLY what to say, or NOT say to a cop when I'm stopped. I agree with you, that it's EXTREMELY important to be on guard when speaking to the cops.

Having said that, you can't win if haven't a clue why he stopped you... It just ain't going to happen. I can't imagine why you think it would...

OK, duly noted. But don't youthink they (cops) assume you're not going to fight it? OK, and even so... if I plead guilty, then I'm automatically guilty without a trial, no contest. If I at least TRY, I can't do any WORSE, can I?? WHy is TRYING to plead not guilty bad? If I can't come out any worse than outright pleading guilty, why not try? I don't get it. Plus it might make that cop think twice before he pulled me or anyone else over without a damn good reason.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SmilingInside;

I think your tips are sound. Say I can't financially bring the car up to inspection-what if I should dispose of or sell the car? Is that just as good?

---

Honestly... I don't know how they would view that. I've never witnessed that scenario over the years that I can remember. I have seen many dismissed by showing it was brought into compliance before the court date however. I would imagine it's not as good as showing compliance however. But its better than not doing anything I would assume. It does sort of throw out any assumption it was simply overlooked and makes it look like you knew it wouldn't pass. But that's a minor charge and fine compared to the other... the big one is the one that caused you to lose your driving privledges. If you can resolve that one before court... your standing would be much improved over what it is now.

Let me add... I've been in court for a few traffic offenses (minor, maybe 3 in all of my 15 driving years. Every time, I plead NOT guilty and got a lesser fine and conviction than if I had just signed the ticket and not bothered. Every other time I was pulled over, I had made a (basic) statement of guilt to the officer when he asked the famous question... since then I had been informed by a lawyer friend to NEVER talk to cops even in a simple traffic stop, and I heeded his advice. So the officer, I am CERTAIN, does NOT have me admitting to ANY guilt, and very well may not have any reason to have puled me over, so I am having trouble understanding why it is harmful to me to plead not guilty? I mean, I can't possibly come out any WORSE... but I COULD come out better... even if I lose miserably, I still tried and didn't come out any worse off.

Agreed and I will address that charge first!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SmilingInside

But don't youthink they (cops) assume you're not going to fight it?? why not try?? Plus it might make that cop think twice before he pulled me or anyone else over without a damn good reason.

---

Hello again, Smiling:

I added some stuff while you were writing..

No, cops think EVERYBODY will fight it... That's why they interact with people with the same level of care that YOU undertook. What?? You think they're sloppy, and you're the only one whose alert? Dude!

Your second question is different.. I absolutely agree with the strategy of fighting the ticket. I also agree that you stand a good chance of getting a better deal in court. But, you're NOT going to teach the cop a lesson. That's arrogance on your part.

Plus, you might NOT get a better deal in court if you PISS off the judge, and I have NO idea what your strategy calls for you to say...

excon

:) I see what you are saying... I just think that maybe in a minor traffic stop they may be more careless, or may not expect it to be fought. I'd bet they have a much higher rate of non-fight than fight when it comes to minor traffic stuff. I can only hope he was a bit careless. And I can only hope he makes up some lie about why he pulled me over. Eh, I just hate cops, so maybe I seem arrogant about it but hey, you can't win if you don't try...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SmilingInside

I just hate cops, so maybe I seem arrogant about it but hey, you can't win if you don't try...

---

Hello again, S:

You're preaching to the choir. Arrogance doesn't win, though. KNOWING the law, and what to DO does. You ARE right. They ARE careless, and CAN be caught. Most people, like you say, have NO IDEA what to say, or what NOT to say when stopped. But, you have to ARM yourself with something... What the probable cause WAS for the stop is exceedingly important information for you... Because if you know what the probable cause was, you understand the LIMITS of his inquiry...

The proper answer for ANY driver, when queried by the cops at a stop, is "am I free to go, Officer?". In your case, since he wasn't forthcoming, I would have asked him WHY he stopped you, and then I would have said NOTHING more, except, "am I free to leave, Officer?"

But, if you don't know what he stopped you for, you can't argue against it. Yes, he MIGHT lie in court, but you have NO defense for it if he does.

excon

Let's say he does lie about why he pulled you over? How are you going to prove he lied?