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Hi! I live in Tx my question is can a judge deny me a public definder?I went to court on July , 9 2008 and was told that if wanted a public definder I would have to show the court 4 years of my tax returns. Is this legal ? I am on walfare and can't afford a lawyer. All the lawyer I called wanted 1,000 to 3,000 to take the case. I was charge with crimmal mischif less than 500.00 dollars damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mauj
Yes, it's legal. There are guidelines and rules.
Why don't you want to show your tax returns?
Because I filed bankrupt 4years agoQuote:
Originally Posted by mauj
Quote:
Originally Posted by mauj
I still don't see why you don't want to use this as proof you can't afford a private Attorney - if you can't afford a private Attorney, of course.
If you can afford to pay someone, then don't furnish your tax returns and retain an Attorney.
Hello m:
Public Defenders are for poor people. If you're poor, then show the judge your welfare papers, and tell him that you make so little, that you aren't required to file a tax return (assuming that it's true - and it probably is).
Don't DO anything. Wait till your next court appearance, and ask the judge AGAIN. If they TRY to DO something else at your next appearance, tell the judge that you CANNOT continue WITHOUT legal counsel. Do NOT let yourself get railroaded. STAND UP!
excon
What is wrong about you going bankrupt that does not mean you don't have tax records.
There are income guidelines and other rules, for example in GA if you have the money to make bail, normally you will not get a Public defender since if you have money for bail you have money for an attorney ( that is the thought)
So if you want a public defender supply them the tax records
Thank you excon and judy. As for why I can't show my tax returns is because I don't have 4 years of tax returns I only have that one and he won't accept it . I filled out the paper work to get a public defender and the judge denied it.
My friend is a bails bonds man and got me out without no moey I still owe him for getting me out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
You can easily get your other IRS tax returns from the IRS.
If you did not file, you will have to go back and refile for those years, and then supply the forms for them.
If you don't provide what they need, they will not provide the attorney
Hello again, m:Quote:
Originally Posted by mauj
The above PROVES nothing. The judge wants you to PROVE you're poor. If you can't do it with tax returns, then take him EVERYTHING you've got. Show him your bankruptcy. Tell him the name of your welfare case worker. Better yet, get an affidavit from your case worker. Take the judge every single piece of paper that backs up your claim of poverty.
Then again, request that you be assigned counsel. Do NOTHING other than that. Do NOT let them proceed with your case. If you don't watch out, Texas WILL railroad you!!
excon
Thanks excon and all the other here for your insite on this matter. excon I will get all my paper work together tonight because I have court this Tuesday sept 9 2008 8:00 o clock once again thanks everyone. mauj
OK! excon will do. Sorry for the late reply
In addition to what has been said above, I as a court bailiff have seen many cases where a defendant delayed meeting the requirements for getting a public defender or otherwise seeking legal counsel and the judge ruled that they had, by their actions, waived their right to an attorney.
While I have also seen appeals based on this practice, it does happen and the judges don't like to mess around with someone who appears to not be doing everything they can to get an attorney as quickly as possible. There is, of course, a Constitutional mandate to ensure a speedy trial.
Do everything you can to get all the documentation requested as quickly as possible. The fact that you had a bankruptcy doesn't matter in this circumstance.
In my state the judge is not involved in determining eligibility for the public defender, it is all done in their office. They don't look at tax returms, but pay stubs and other documentaion of current, as opposed to past, income, or the lack thereof. If you qualify for welfare, as you said, you should also qualify for a public defender.
Thanks,jimgunther I guess you're right about the judge because he would not let me submit my walfare papers in court today. He the(judge) stated that I already had enough time to comply with the courts order to hire a lawyer but as I stated I have no money to afford a lawyer and that's why I needed a public definder. I ask the judge if I could submit the papers that I had from the walfare office to show the courts I have very little income but he the (judge) said no that if I was'nt ready oct 14 2008 he's going on to proceed with the trial weather I had a lawyer or not or that I would have to repersent myself. After all that put down by the judge here's comes the d.a's asking me would I take 2 years defereded judacataion probation I said no.so the judge set trial 10-14-08 and this is were I stand now!Quote:
Originally Posted by JimGunther
Quote:
Originally Posted by mauj
And so what are you doing to resolve the situation?
Hello again, m:
Texas is going to railroad you, EXACTLY LIKE I SAID THEY WOULD. Texas railroads EVERYBODY. Isn't the dufus in chief from Texas?? Texas should be blown off the map.
excon
PS> (edited) Private Message received earlier today:
Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Mauj, I hope you undertand what deferred adjudication is, in my state its called probation before judgement and is a great way to go if you want to prevent a conviction from appearing on your record. If you are able to get a public defender or other attorney to represent you by the court date, I am sure he will explain it to you.
Basically, it means that you plead guilty, but instead of a finding of guilt being entered, a period of probation is imposed, and if the person completes the probation satisfactorily, no finding of guilt is entered. In other words, you are not convicted of the crime.
In your case this might be a problem because if the offense involved damaging property of some kind, you can pretty much be assured that one of the conditions of probation will be restitution for the damage, which you probably can't pay in your current situation.
Try to get the PD as hard as you can and let us know...
hee hee I agree but wait until I get my family out. Hee heeQuote:
Originally Posted by excon
hello... jimgunther yes I understand what deffered judication is and that's why I told the d.a. that I wouldn't accept deffered judication. I'm not admitting guilt for something I didn't do. Now on the other hand if I had committed this crime I would be more than happy to accept the 2 yrs. Probation.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimGunther
hey! Jim I agree with you 100 percent. Its just these little towns think they can do anything they won't to people and they do. This what's makes the world we live in so bad you got rotten judges;lawyer; d.a's; and the rest of the crap in the system. Seems that your guilty until proven innocent instead of the other way round innocent until proven guilty.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimGunther
hello judykaytee what I am doing is trying to get the courts to let me admit my welfare papers in court so they can see I do need a public definder.but I am denied every time by the judge.Quote:
Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
Quote:
Originally Posted by mauj
Right, got that. I meant what are you doing to get the welfare papers admitted - ?
Have you sent away for copies of your tax returns?
Hello Jude:
I'm sure he doesn't HAVE tax returns. People bouncing along the bottom don't generally file. Of course, if they made LESS than around $9,000 they aren't required to file. But, whethere they DID or not, isn't an issue for Texas.
What this appears to me to be, is just your ordinary Texas railroad job. They have a fictitious bar that poor people need to reach in order to be appointed counsel. Of course, most can't reach it, so, these people get thrown away.
There's got to be 1,000's of innocent people inside Texas dungeons...
excon
Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Not disagreeing about Texas law - where you are allowed to legally shoot people in the back - but OP didn't say she didn't file. She said she only had 1 of the 4 returns.
Suppose it could be either way -
I have no idea what proof of need she showed to get on public assistance.
I can't afford a lawyer either. I was arrested for shoplifting under 100.00. If I gave my tax returns they would say I can afford one but I can't. I have 3 mortgages, a car payment, behind in every bill we have. My husband only brings in enoguh for half the bills without OT and he hasn't gotten much OT lately, aka that's why I shoplifted at a grocery store. I will never do it again but would it be bad to go in without a lawyer??
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Originally Posted by karyn818
This should be a separate thread or no one will see it.
I'd go without an Attorney and explain all of this - appears to be your only choice if you don't qualify for a public defender and can't afford an Attorney.
You will probably end up with some sort of community service, a fine, restitution, particularly if it's your first offense.
What does restitution mean? Will It go on my record? Will I be scared for life now? Will I be convicted?
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Originally Posted by karyn818
Karyn, I just answered you at some length on your other post.
Restitution means you have to pay the store back for what you stole. Given your circumstances, this could very well be waived.
There may or may not be a record. You have to ASK that you not have a record and explain your reasons.
No, this will be just one of those bumps in life and won't follow you around if all goes well. You made a mistake.
I don't see a conviction. I see an explanation, a plea to something (who knows what it'll be reduced to). The Police are definitely trying to help you and you have to hope that the Court will, too.
It is your right to have legal representation and no-one can deny you of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by mauj
However,I'm unsure of the legal system in Texas as far as being poor or not or their ways of determining that, but you are on welfare and if you take that to the judge along with any other government assistance you may be getting, you should be able to prove your being poor. I would NOT allow the case to go any further without legal help.
[QUOTE: AARON602: "It is your right to have legal representation and no-one can deny you of that.
However,I'm unsure of the legal system in Texas as far as being poor or not or their ways of determining that, but you are on welfare and if you take that to the judge along with any other government assistance you may be getting, you should be able to prove your being poor. I would NOT allow the case to go any further without legal help. QUOTE]
This is correct - everyone is entitled to legal representation. HOWEVER, the Courts can and do set up guidelines for which income levels do and do not qualify for FREE legal representation and what proof is required. And that is what happened here.
How would you propose the OP keep the case from going forward without legal representation now that the Judge has told her to either provide tax returns or return with an Attorney?
[QUOTE=JudyKayTee]Right, got that. I meant what are you doing to get the welfare papers admitted - ? Hi! Judykaytee the judge told me it was to late for me to admitt anything into court, he the (judge) said no matter what I try to give the courts he would not accept it ,and to be ready for trial oct 14 2008 I had welfare papers in hand that day to show him the(judge). The d.a"s even took a look at my welfare papers and said well let me talk to the judge to see if he will let you present them into court because we see you do need a public definder.
yes!Quote:
Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
I'm sorry that you're having so much trouble with the court system. However, you say that you went to court on 7/9 and were told at that time to provide documentation of your income which would make you eligible for a public defender; you didn't post this question until 9/6. Now the judge has told you that it's too late to submit anything and you want to know what your options are. Quite frankly, I don't think you have any. You asked for a public defender; they asked for documentation. You waited for 2 months before even posting the question here which, in my eyes, is more than ample time to provide documentation. However, you did not.
I could be totally wrong but I don't think you have many options at this point. Yes, you can tell the judge that you cannot continue without legal counsel, which you are legally entitled to. But the court allowed you time to either a)prove that you need a public defender or b)obtain an attorney. You chose to do neither. The court system can't be put on hold just because you chose option C.
Ask for a continuance, postpone court date. Explain that you know nothing about what is going on with the case and that you NEED legal help. Also explain that you are working on getting the proper documentation proving that you are poor.
On that note, I don't understand how a court can try you while denying you legal help, that being your RIGHT here in the United States...
Quote:
Originally Posted by arron602
Again, the Court did not deny her legal assistance. It denied her FREE legal assistance because she either doesn't qualify OR can't prove that she does.
Everyone who walks into a Courtroom is not assigned a FREE Attorney. Not everyone qualifies.
Yes, she NEEDS an Attorney - one she may very well have to pay for.
You need grounds for a continuance, a postponement. This has been going on since July. The Judge is probably up to here with the whole "free Attorney" argument.
Continuing to post the same wrong legal information does not make it correct legal information.
My point exactly. The OP has never once been told that s/he will not be allowed legal representation. Instead, the OP squandered the time that they were given to provide proof of income, or lack thereof, which would entitle them to a public defender. And as I said, the court is not going to wait until the OP decides to start being more responsible; if they did, then they'd have to make that exception for every person who walked in through the doors and nothing would ever get accomplished.Quote:
Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
My apologies to Ex but I just don't see this as a case of being "railroaded." While it may be true in a few or in a majority of cases, it's not in this one. The OP neglected to follow the court's guidelines and is now paying the price for it.
Hello again, this:Quote:
Originally Posted by this8384
No apologies necessary. I don't disagree that the defendant fiddled around while he or she should have been diligent. He MAY not have understood the importance of it. You must remember, he DIDN'T have ANYONE guiding him along until he happened upon us.
The punishment for that indiscretion, however, should NOT be a DENIAL of his Constitutional right to counsel.
Every effort should be made by the judge to insure that the defendant has counsel. In TEXAS, as has been demonstrated, they do their best to insure the opposite.
I don't think the court should act in the manner it has, until it is CERTAIN that the defendant is stringing it along. I don't think that threshold has been reached yet. Of course, we only know what we've been told.
excon
We agree the OP spent their time foolishly. However, I don't think they're being "punished" by the court; they knew the situation was important enough that they asked for a public defender. Why they waited 2 months to even pose the question is beyond you, me or anyone else on this board.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Should the OP have counsel? Absolutely. As you pointed out, that is their Constitutional right. On the other side of the coin, I don't think it's right that taxpayers' money should be spent having one hearing after the other just because the OP is dragging their feet. They were given time to act and they chose not to.
But that's just me :)
Hello 8384 frist of all I am dealing with Texas who give a rats a** about giving a public defender to anyone. Second I did try to show the courts the I am on public assistant the very first day that court started 07-09-2008 and was told by judge I needed 4 years of my tax returns not public assistant papers I don't have 4 years of tax returns which I tried to tell the judge and he replied to me well it's to bad because the courts had given me enough time.to hire attorney I was trying to come up with some money to hire an attorney but had no luck.thats why I was trying to show the courts that I am poor and can't afford an attorney.Quote:
Originally Posted by this8384
hello again 8384 why is it so hard for you to understand that the court don"t wont to even see my papers that i have from the walfare office i've tried to submit the papers from the very first day of court to the courts and they did'nt won"t to see what I had to show them.if the government gives me cash assistance and food stamps would you consider that being poor enough to get a public defender?Quote:
Originally Posted by this8384
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