I am just curious about everyone's thoughts regarding the Second Amendment and the Right to Bear Arms. I am specifically curious to hear from those of you that live in countries that have been forced to give up your arms.

Are there more crimes now than before?

If you live in the US I am curious to find out who would willingly relinquish their personal firearms, whether used for protection or for hunting to feed families.

I know this may spur a debate, however, we had one recently in my American History class on this subject, but there wasn't anyone from a foreign country to speak up, only blogs that were posted on the internet about the rise in crime in places like England and Australia.

Just curious

Janine

Canada here.

While we don't have a total ban on firearms, owning one is not quite common.

In a major city like Toronto that is.

Out west they have a lot more.

Crime is the same.

I heard the arguments that if you ban guns, crime goes up since criminals know their victims won't have a gun on them.

Studies have also shown though that if a family owns a gun, they are more likely to use it on another family member than on a burglar. Using it on another family member either intentionally or unintentionally.

Personally, my family and I do not own a gun and have never owned one, and I have no desire to ever own one. Mainly for the reason above.

Yes, my thought on criminals and crime is that only the criminals will have guns.

No matter what, a criminal will find a way to commit a crime.

You say that if a family owns a gun they are more likely to use it on another family member. I really like to see the studies you are looking at. When I lived in Alaska practically everyone owned a firearm and it was basically used to protect yourself from grizzly bears and the like. I know I had to use on once while camping.

Firearms are also used for hunting, which many people do where I live now. These people use it to maintain their food supply so that they can use money that would be spent for other things.

But your point is well taken, I like to hear the different viewpoints on issues.

According to The Fraser Institute (a Canadian think-tank):

Published November 2003:

http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared...sNav=nr&id=570

Selected parts:

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Restrictive firearm legislation has failed to reduce gun violence in Australia, Canada, or Great Britain. The policy of confiscating guns has been an expensive failure, according to a new paper The Failed Experiment: Gun Control and Public Safety in Canada, Australia, England and Wales, released today by The Fraser Institute.

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Canada

The contrast between the criminal violence rates in the United States and in Canada is dramatic. Over the past decade, the rate of violent crime in Canada has increased while in the United States the violent crime rate has plummeted. The homicide rate is dropping faster in the US than in Canada.

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Of course, when a “life sentence” means you only get 25 years and you can get house arrest for a gun crime. New Conservative PM Harper plans to increase that, which I agree with. Punishments have to warrant the crime.

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The Canadian experiment with firearm registration is becoming a farce says Mauser. The effort to register all firearms, which was originally claimed to cost only $2 million, has now been estimated by the Auditor General to top $1 billion. The final costs are unknown but, if the costs of enforcement are included, the total could easily reach $3 billion.

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Don't get me started on this….



When dealing with shooting in Alaska, that is different than living in a big city. Why does one really need a gun if you are living in a major urban city? Example, Toronto, Montreal, NYC, Chicago

It is not like the bears come out all the time.

Very VERY interesting, thanks for the info. That is kind of what I thought all along.

To me, the right to bear arms doesn't so much address crime as it alters what a government can or cannot do to its citizens and so to that end I would not relinquish any... although LOL I currently don't own one so maybe I have said too much here already? :eek:

Part of the reason most believe for a armed population is first for the right to protect thierself from the government also. Remember we just fought a war with the English ( sorry guys) they had military we had just citizens with guns that formed groups.

They knew that at some point the government may go to far even with the protection of the constitution.

Next of course I remember the words of Hitler, when he saved them from crime by taking away all the guns.

For myself, I am a gun collector of sorts, and have a permit to carry a concelled weapon if I want to. I would not easily give away my rights to own weapons.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Remember we just fought a war with the English ( sorry guys) they had military we had just citizens with guns that formed groups.

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Just? That was like 200+ years ago!

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

for myself, I am a gun collector of sorts, and have a permit to carry a concelled weapon if I want to. I would not easily give away my rights to own weapons.

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See, that is where you and I differ. I don't think any “ordinary citizen” should be allowed to carry a concealed weapon.

Well of course I am a retired law enforcement officer, with hours of weapon training, but I go the other way, I think if almost everyone carried one, there would be a lot less crime

I am an ordinary citizen who lives in a high crime area, Memphis is not the most friendly of towns when it comes to crime. I have a carry permit also. We have MANY carjackings in our area and when I HAVE to go to those areas I choose to carry to protect my children.

I do not have to carry, and honestly usually don't, but I like the fact that I am given a choice.

I live in a small town in Australia, I am 28 years of age and have only once seen a gun that was my fathers. When we were all told to hand in our guns my father happily handed it in, no ifs no buts. I believe every country is difference but I feel much safer in a country where it is illegal to carry a weapon, don't get me wrong I am well aware that there are people that do carry them, but the average Jo dose not carry one in their purse. I live approx 40 minutes from city, there is only two gun shops from my home to the city. To be honest its just not something you would if being attacked think about, I'd expect someone one if attacking me to have a knife not a gun.

Honestly I don't know what I think one way or another... what Captain Forest said about Canada and guns was great, as usual. In the part of Canada I live in, guns are not commonplace in urban centres... they are used on farms and for hunting, whether it be by locals or tourists. This is a great hunting area and we have lots of tourists coming up here to the hunting lodges and for hunting expeditions. Of course those are all shotguns or rifles rather than handguns or semi-automatics, etc. Actually I had never seen a handgun until my biological father shot his girlfriend and then himself with one. So given that horrible experience, they frighten me.

Similar to Lungie mentioned, most people in my area carry a knife for protection, I think. At least, when you hear of a murder or bodily harm on the news, it's almost always a stabbing or a beating, and only rarely a shooting.

All that being said though, I think Canada's national gun registry is a total farce... it targets law-abiding citizens who are gun collectors, hobbyists, farmers and hunters. The criminals of course are not going to register their guns! So I can see both sides of the argument quite easily. Fr Chuck is right too about Hitler and the guns. One of the reasons the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising were able to hold out for so long was that they HAD guns. Otherwise the Nazis would have overpowered them a lot sooner.

Interesting discussion!

But, my question Lungie is

Don't only criminals carry guns in your part of the world?

People here really do not carry knives, except maybe a pocket knife used to open things. Criminals here carry guns, and we have to be prepared to defend ourselves if necessary.

Oh and I forgot to add, if I felt that my life or the lives of my children were in danger, I would definitely carry a weapon. Some in-laws of mine who live in Israel own and carry uzis around with them. However, I'm lucky in that I live in a relatively safe area. Most of the violent crimes here occur between family members, rival gangs, and among members of the aboriginal population. The majority of other crime is vandalism and non-violent break and enters, which occur during the day while people are not at home. I do sometimes think it would be good if shopkeepers could have a gun in their store, or some kind of weapon though, because hold-ups in stores seem to be on the rise here, and more often thieves have a gun rather than a knife.

I'm in Eastern Canada and even the criminals don't have access to guns so they commit their crimes with knives, shotguns, hypodermic needles, etc.. Crime rate is very low here and I feel a lot safer here than in any large american city. I'm originally from Montreal and that's as safe as where I am now.

But isn't a shotgun still a gun?

You sure are safer than here in Memphis, I will tell you that much.

Thank goodness I live in a small safe bedroom community.

Hi,
United States here; from the great State of VA.
I own several guns, pistols, rifles, and shotguns. Use to be an avid hunter, but don't anymore.
I would definitely own a gun if I lived in any large city in the US... for personal home protection. Those who leave them lying around for their children to pick up and discharge shouldn't have one in the first place, but that's another story.
Any crimes committed with guns, would be committed with something else, if there were no guns. Some are even committed with a hunters' bow and arrows! Others with knives, some with pieces of glass, used as a weapon.
Relinquish my personal owned firearms? NO, that is a right as an American Citizen, with which I have been for over half a century.
I have never used a firearm, aimed at another person. But, if my family is in danger, I would have serious thoughts about protecting them and myself; and would not want to be the intruder. Hope it never comes to that.

I agree wholeheartedly with you on every aspect Fred!

We have SEVERAL firearms of every kind in our home along with a 12 and 4 year old. However, we are smart enough parents to keep them in a safe. We only have one firearm available if it comes to home invasion, which happens often.

Our children have been taught from very tender ages that "if you can see the gun you are not allowed in the room." And they follow those instructions to a T.

My husband is a gunsmith, a very gifted one at that, and is very educated in the use and misuse of firearms and he is passing this knowledge on to our children.

If guns were outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. But as NeedKarma said, criminals do not need guns, they will go as far as hypodermic needles to commit their crimes.

To be honest guys if I lived somewhere where I absolutely felt like I needed a gun to defend myself, my family or my property I would probably move.

I am frightened by the "armed population" of the USA. American tourists show up here from time to time, and come "armed"... I shudder to think what life would be like in a place where so many people walking the streets are armed!

Contrast to where I live - Western Canada - where many people own guns, you won't find too many people walking the street with them. So no need to be afraid of being shot at...

I believe in the right to have a gun, but I don't think it should be something you carry around with you all the time. American culture seems to dictate otherwise, which is what I think leads to so many problems with guns in the USA.

And yes - Gun control (in Canada) is a joke. It does nothing but force the law-abiding citizen to turn in or register their hunting rifles while leaving criminals able to buy all kinds of weapons illegally.

I think too that it's hard to compare the US to Canada... Canada in general doesn't have the same level of threat of gun crime that many part of the US have. So where you may need to carry a gun or have guns in your home in order to feel safe in many parts of the US, that's quite uncommon here. So it's like comparing apples and oranges. I've never even handled a gun (I don't hunt) and I hope my children never have to handle one for non-recreational purposes, either.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Well of course I am a retired law enforcement officer, with hours of weapon training, but I go the other way, I think if almost everyone carried one, there would be alot less crime

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Again, I disagree.

If everyone carried one, then the chance the gun would be used would increase since it would be much easier to use it.

You get drunk, you pull out your gun and boom, shoot someone.

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Originally Posted by fredg

Relinquish my personal owned firearms? NO, that is a right as an American Citizen, with which I have been for over half a century.

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I think that is the difference b/w Canadians and Americans. Americans seem to cherish every “right” like its gold. Owning a firearm can be dangerous, sometimes having a dangerous item is not such a good thing.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

To be honest guys if I lived somewhere where I absolutely felt like I needed a gun to defend myself, my family or my property I would probably move.

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I wish I hadn't just commented on your other post because I sure wish to comment on this one.

I agree with this.

If I was living in an area that unsafe, then I probably would leave that area, not make it worse by adding yet another gun to the mix.

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Originally Posted by phillysteakandcheese

I am frightened by the "armed population" of the USA. American tourists show up here from time to time, and come "armed" ... I shudder to think what life would be like in a place where so many people walking the streets are armed!

Contrast to where I live - Western Canada - where many people own guns, you won't find too many people walking the street with them. So no need to be afraid of being shot at...

I believe in the right to have a gun, but I don't think it should be something you carry around with you all the time. American culture seems to dictate otherwise, which is what I think leads to so many problems with guns in the USA.

And yes - Gun control (in Canada) is a joke. It does nothing but force the law-abiding citizen to turn in or register their hunting rifles while leaving criminals able to buy all kinds of weapons illegally.

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I agree.

Owning a gun at home is one thing, but carrying it around on the street is an entirely different subject.

Re: Your Gun Control Comments.

Even the left wing party NDP and Jack Layton said in the last election campaign that criminal sentences for gun crimes need to be strengthened.

Guns? In my opinion, the right to bear arms is fundumental and cost many of live to obtain these rights. Your forefather saw tha there was a problem that when government usurps people rights, those people must have a way to defend themselves.

Government today would like to remove the guns from average people hand so that there can be no resistance to them.

Down under, since guns were outlawed, crime increase over 400%.

As Mr. Bush stated the Constitution is only a piece of paper.

IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.


If our forefather did not have any weapons to defend themselves we would still be a colony under England today.

One other thought, it is people who kill people and a gun is only a tool they use, most people have values, and will only use a weapon to defend themselves, I for one.

You would have a hard time getting Americans to give up there guns. For the most part law abiding citizens are very responsible, but unfortunately criminals and gang bangers can get a gun anytime they want and that's who you worry about. Evenso Americans will always keep their guns and wo to the ones who say different!

I believe that we should keep them with us at all times.
I don't go anywhere with out them.
My feelings about it are it is my god given right to keep them and they are going to pay hell taking them away from me.

Where in the Bible or whatever religion you believe in does it say that God allows you to carry a gun with you?

So, how can it be your God given right? Aren't all rights given by the state, and not by God?

If you take guns away from law abiding citizens only the criminals will have them.
Then what do we have no way to protect ourselves from the people who would take mine away from me.

Where in the bible does it say we are not allowed to protect myself.

I'm personally not telling anyone to give up their guns. I'm all for people protecting themselves. And I'm not against using guns for recreational purposes like hunting. But like I said before, Canada and the US are different countries with different circumstances. I don't even think we have "the right to bear arms" in our constitution here, or at least I've never heard of it. When you don't grow up around guns, you don't really see a need for them. I'm just glad I don't have to carry a weapon around with me to feel safe. I agree with what NeedKarma said earlier... if I lived in an area where I had to carry a gun for protection, I'd probably move, too.

Bottom line, I think different countries just have different experiences regarding guns. And that doesn't make one way right and the other wrong. You do what you have to, depending on where you live.

So there I was, with my sawed off shotgun and my 9. I would have won if it had not been for that darn bunker buster bomb, the f-18s and those tanks... well, so much for protecting myself from a tyrannical government! They outlawed anything that comes close to what they have. I guess that tells us a lot about the odds. Just ask that lady at Ruby Ridge, Idaho and her dead children as well, when you cross over.

Your pea shooters and BB guns are not a threat to anyone except to the person standing in front of you when you think it's unloaded! Guns only scare the citizens that don't know how to use one and are much too refined and civilized to learn.

As far as executing capitol crimes... does no good what so ever. Just scares the hell out of sane people. Even sane people commit crimes of passion.

I agree with Demonspeeding 2005. Where I grew up, I believe it was against the law to not have a gun!

Magprob brings up a good point...

If a "tyrannical government" came to power in the USA to a point where armed citizens were fighting with soldiers in the streets, do you really believe US soldiers would engage their own citizens in combat?

I don't believe that US soldiers would engage US citizens, I do believe if neocons get their way for the New World Order it would not be US soldiers, they would try to bring off shore troop, which would only create a total all out war.

There already are foreign troops on U.S. soil. The government knows that U.S. troops would turn over if ordered to shoot Americans in the street. Remember all of those bases they shut down a while back? They are still top secret and no tresspassing. What could those bases really be for? Hummmm!:confused:

But, some troops would shoot their own if ordered to. Some folks just can't survive without being told exactly what to do. Such a shame.

Where they foreign troops I saw firing on students during the demonstrations in the 60's?? Didn't look it to me;)

Kent state will be repeated unless we have learned our lesson!

Remember Katrina? Remember seeing armed military kicking in doors on relatively undamaged homes & literally dragging homeowners out, confiscating any weapons they owned? Can anyone tell me "What the HECK for"! That WAS AFTER a hurricane & those were families that had weathered the WORST! They were the fortunate ones; NOT flooded out, asking for HELP or homeless, right? Then what about Article 1V: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers & effects AGAINSTUNREASONABLE SEARCHES & SEIZURES SHALL NOT BE VIOLATED". Sad to say All of America just watched it happen on TV & to my knowledge, none QUESTIONED, objected or said ANYTHING! ~ Kinda' reminds me of a couple of other similar instances most heard about or watched on TV. In New Orleans, these were ordinary, peaceful Americans just weathering a STORM for pete's Sakes!It was never suggested any of those people had been accused of or were violating ANYTHING. Still, I saw them treated as roughly as hardened criminals and saw their lawful weapons being confiscated. DISARMED [by those who WERE, of course] From what I heard and saw, there was PLENTY for police & military to DO without kicking in the doors of people that had and were continuing to MANAGE on their own, peacefully in their OWN homes. Hummm I'd hate to suspect that part was a DRESS REHEARSAL; for what ALL of 'We The People'; FREE Americans can 'expect' during the NEXT 'emergency'?? Bird Flu? Another 'terror alert'? Does anyone realize that at any SECOND the President can announce & declare MARTIAL LAW? Sad to say, the Constitution AND Bill of Rights are being shredded as we're discussing the matter. Have we been sold out? That would be MY opinion. Scary, isn't it.

I agree with Phillysteakandchees, I'm frightened with the Armed population of America it seams like everyone wants one in their home JUST IN CASE someone else comes into your home with one. I guess it just sound strange to me as its just not like that in Australia. If someone came into my home I would be terrified but it does not consume my thoughts enough to have a lethal weapon in my home at all times JUST IN CASE. I agree that there are several objects that crimes are committed with like knives and needles but almost everything could be a lethal weapon. NeedKarma I agree with you totally if I HAD to have a gun to protect myself at all times, or frightened I'd have to protect myself with a gun.. I'd move!

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Originally Posted by J_9

But, my question Lungie is

Don't only criminals carry guns in your part of the world?

People here really do not carry knives, except maybe a pocket knife used to open things. Criminals here carry guns, and we have to be prepared to defend ourselves if necessary.

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Yes criminals carry guns but I don't see the need to carry "in case" they target me, I hate the thought of millions of people carrying guns, it just seams so unsafe. Also our guns don't appear to be as accessible as in the USA, although if you really, really want one you can and if someone wants to kill you they will not wait until you draw your gun and have a shoot out. I don't believe that Australians have the opinion that we need to protect out selves at all times.

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Originally Posted by magprob

There already are foriegn troops on U.S. soil ... Remember all of those bases they shut down a while back? They are still top secret and no tresspassing. What could those bases really be for? Hummmm!:confused:

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Do you honestly believe that formerly closed military bases house a secret "invasion force" that is just waiting to emerge and take over the United States? Do you think the country with the largest military force in the world is somehow preparing or keeping its enemies fed, clothed, sheltered, and supplied right in their own back yard so that some mysterious day it can be unleashed for a fight?

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Originally Posted by Marj Ann

Remember Katrina? Remember seeing armed military kicking in doors on relatively undamaged homes & literally dragging homeowners out, confiscating any weapons they owned?

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It makes complete sense in context of the event. Everyone is armed. There's no food, no water, no power, no law and order... basically, everything you need for a complete breakdown of civility. Without that authority exerting control, it would have continued to dwindle down into an "every man for himself" fight with citizens killing each other for a can of soup...

Gaining control over a paniced public is required to maintain public safety. No one likes that, but it's necessary. Single individuals can be rational, but a mob mentality is dangerous.

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Originally Posted by Marj Ann

Does anyone realize that at any SECOND the President can announce & declare MARTIAL LAW?

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And this is nothing new - When was the last time the entire USA was placed under martial law? Even on 9/11 there was no martial law imposed for the "public safety". This is a scare tactic you use to profess why your "gun love" is so important.

It's this kind of conspiracy theory that scares me... All these irrational fears, people runing around with guns, any attempt to bring order from chaos seen as "government oppression" ... where does it end?

Lungie, if you take the passive stance and just let an armed person control you, if it ever happens, then that is your choice. I, on the other hand, wish to be on an even playing field. I believe in killing before being killed if there is even just 1/2 a chance of survival. With that, you must be aware of your surroundings and prepared to do what is needed. Most people are not. Criminals know that, therefore, you present easy pray.