Asalamu laekum
I want to know something -- the Trinity that the Christians talk about, especially the Holy Spirit. They say it's not Gabriel but another god. Please tell me in detail so that I can convince my fellow Muslims who this is.
Jazakallah
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Asalamu laekum
I want to know something -- the Trinity that the Christians talk about, especially the Holy Spirit. They say it's not Gabriel but another god. Please tell me in detail so that I can convince my fellow Muslims who this is.
Jazakallah
I'm having a very hard time understanding what you're trying to ask. Can you re-write it so it's clearer?
The Christian God has three "aspects" or Persons --- God the Father who created everything, God the Son who died to take away sins, and God the Holy Spirit who helps us have faith and is with us to help us give love and service to others.
Not all Christians (such as Unitarians) are trinitarians, although most are, and I would guess that many recite 'Father, Son, and Holy Spirit' without much thought about those three being all God.
Trinity is a Latin word, but the first recorded use of the concept of a triad (group of 3) was in Greek by Theophilus of Antioch about 170 years after the birth of Christ. He wrote
"In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity [Τριάδος], of God, and His Word (λόγος or logos), and His wisdom (σοφίᾱ or sophia)."
It wasn't until about 200 years after that that the Trinity was described as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
(In my Episcopal church when I was a child we recited 'Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,' and I had no idea what the Holy Ghost meant, and was scared.)
I imagine that early Christian theologians were struggling with convincing people (other than Jews) around Italy and Greece of the concept of one god. People who had countless gods and goddesses, household gods, gods for every part of daily life.
The Holy Spirit is not a person and not "another God" it is considered a part of God, a role or part of the entire God.
Less concern over the Holy Spirit and more dicussion of Christ, since until they accept Christ as the Lord and Savior, how the Holy Spirit fits into this , is just a subject for argurement.
There is no real way to explain this to a person who is Muslim since they see it as a false religion and a false God.
Christianity has only one God. But we see him existing in three distinct personages: father, son and holy spirit. One God, three distinct manifestations. Those of us who have devoted our lives to understanding the Christian Bible don't pretend to comprehend how it works, but there are places where the Bible clearly calls all three personages "God" while still affirming that there is only one God. I can only speak for myself: I see the idea clearly taught in the Bible, so I accept it. But I don't pretend to comprehend it.
What, exactly, is that sin?Quote:
Originally Posted by Judy1234567890
Theologians have been asking that question for centuries, and nobody can agree on the answer.
Theos, Logos, Sophia
Trinity is the word used to define three Persons having one essesnece or nature yet so perfectly joined they are said to be consubstantial ('of the same substance' in Greek it is homoousios) Trias is first heard in Theophilus of Antioch in Autolycus, book II in his description of the 'luminaries' and creation by "God, and His Word, and His wisdom." At about the same period Tertullian writes, "For the very Church itself is, properly and principally, the Spirit Himself, in whom is the Trinity of the One Divinity— Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (The Spirit) combines that Church which the Lord has made to consist in three." Both Tertullian and Theophilus pass what was given to them from the Apostles to the next generation; a belief in One God, three Persons, and One faith. The issue was settled in the orthodoxy of the Church long before the Nicene Council. St. Athanasius sums the rudiments of the Catholic faith in one Creed. Predominate is the Trinity "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God."
One cannot compass about God's essence, assuredly no Catholic except the first Catholic daughter and the New Adam ever compassed God. The essence of God can not be known except for those things He reveals. He exists in eternity and it is said "Eternity is nothing else but God Himself" St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, I, 10, 2. 3.
The Holy Spirit is a distinct Person who proceeds from the Father and the Son. Since God is one substance the Holy Spirit is said to proceed from both Father and Son. Scripturally we find the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth, knowledge and wisdom (Sophia) See John 14:16-17; 15:26. The Isaiah said, "the light of Israel shall be for a fire." (Isaiah 10:17) It is "a spirit wise and discerning, a spirit prudent and strong, a spirit of knowledge and of piety" (Isaiah 11:2). The graces we receive from the Holy Spirit are prudence, fortitude, knowledge and piety.
Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report , full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business [Acts 6:3]
The Monarchians believed that the Trintiy was only nominal with each of the Persons described as their operations or manifestations. The Arians denied God was one substance and that Christ was subordinate to the Father. Others
Erred in holding that there are three Divinities, each a separate substance and a separate nature.
I kind of disagree, there is very little discussion about the Holy Spirit these days anyway and I think there should be more emphasis on it, since the Holy Spirit is the one who Jesus talked about the coming of and how the Spirit lives in the world today.Quote:
Less concern over the Holy Spirit and more dicussion of Christ
The teaching of Jesus is important but so is the role the Spirit plays in the church today (which is often overlooked)
Simple: God is the creator. Jesus is the son of God and is also God... he God is Jesus in the flesh. We read in The BIBLE JOHN 1:1 "IN THE BENNING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD AND THE WORD BECAME FLESH." NOW... Jesus is the Lord and when he walked the Earth he taught us his ways and how to live life by truth. NOW after his death came THE HOLY SPIRIT THOUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS ALWAYS THERE. THE HOLY SPIRIT IS JESUS AND GOD. WHICH LEAD US AND GUIDE US TO LIVE AND HAVE A HEALTHY RELATIONSHIP WITH OUR HEAVENLY FATHER. FATHER SPIRIT SON THREE IN ONE
Actually there are three responses to the question of 'what is the act against the Holy Spirit not forgiven'. Each nearly equal and all of them are within the pale of orthodoxy. I think all of them revolve around choosing evil or consciously working against God's good for evil's sake. The 'unforgivable' rests in seeking to remain in a state of privation and a rejection of God's charity.Quote:
Originally Posted by AthosWhat, exactly, is that sin?Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
One school of thought has the 'unforgivable' being a certain contempt for the Holy Spirit, it would seem that such a sin would lack fear of God and be 'malice' toward the Holy Spirit.
Another group of seem to suggest that the 'unforgivable' occurs blasphemy in identifying God's good as evil or the work of devil.
The third and my favorite is St. Augustine's sense of the 'unforgivable' by way saying, "He has an unclean spirit". [Cf. Mark 3:30]. Which is to unabashedly persevere in sin as opposed to faith. It's not what is uttered so much as the unclean spirit that motivated the act. The impertinence that seeks evil and not God.
JoeT
Could this, then, be a reference as to why demons appear to be an unforgiven spirit race? They operate continually in blasphemy against God? Something I have never actually thought about to be honest... hmmm...
The unforgivable sin:
I do indeed think that demons and devils are the unforgivable race, but then again I don't know a lot about the attributes of demons and devils except that they are repulsed by Mary. I make a point of staying away. However, we are able to look in a mirror or at our neighbors to observe the nature of men.Quote:
Originally Posted by hauntinghelper
I think it was St. Augustine's journey looking for the source of evil that best described evil in men. He found that evil was not something added to man rather it was privation of original justice [a state not requiring Salvation]. St. Thomas explains this state best; in men after Adam God withheld original justice which "united the will to God, produced an overflowing of perfection into other powers, namely, that knowledge of truth enlightened the intellect, and that the irascible and concupiscible appetites received direction from reason." [Cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo]
Thus through the act of one man we in ignorance we are born without fear of God and we find only Baptism provides salvific grace. Baptism, at least in part, reinstates a portion of original justice although with ignorance and concupiscence still hampered necessitating the graces of salvation.
Original Sin is that men are born without the fear of God and without trust in God, is to be entirely rejected, since it is manifest to every Christian that to be without the fear of God and without trust in God is rather the actual guilt of an adult than the offence of a recently-born infant, which does not possess as yet the full use of reason, as the Lord says "Your children which had no knowledge between good and evil," Deut 1:39. (Johann Eck, The Confutatio Pontificia, 1530)
Sin has been characterized as a war against God. I would suggest that the unforgivable sin is deliberately turning away from God's charity and continuing the war of sin. The unforgivable are effectively storming heaven by the power of their will with the same malice and impertinence of a warrior seeking to unseat God's good and establish our own evil.
JoeT
HH.
Interesting thought and it makes sense too.
The difference for man is that Jesus died for us... he didn't for demons. Not sure there would ever be forgiveness granted to demon spirits.
The only unforgivable sin is rejecting Jesus as savior which is why I believe that is what it means to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.
JoeT,
Just to clarify... do you believe even believers can be guilty of the unpardonable sin?
As Joe pointed out, there are several different ideas about what this "sin" is, and we really have no idea which is correct, or if any of them are. The passages in question are so vague that they're open to a myriad of interpretations. My philosophy is, if you're worried you might have done it, you haven't. If you really had, you wouldn't care. So I suspect that most all of us are reasonably safe!
Dave,
Thing is this has driven a lot of Christians kind of crazy with fear. I mean I heard a pastor say when he was younger he was just sure he had committed this sin. I am SURE the Lord Jesus wouldn't want anyone in fear and torment over this. So I DO believe we can know what it is and there is NO WAY a believer in the Lord could commit it... once saved, always saved. That is my story and I am sticking to it. I believe there is enough scripture to back that up.
The only thing that sends someone to hell this side of the cross is not accepting the Lord Jesus as savior. Best I can tell. I would be willing to believe that blaspheming the HS during the Lord's ministry would be rejecting him as their messiah and walking away in unbelief when he performed miracles. But then again it all comes back to believing who Jesus is. I don't see any way around it. I know I know... you don't like my theology. BUT... I don't like how you think the bible leaves so much up in the air. I think the Lord can and does reveal things that are hard to understand to those who diligently seek him. Am I wrong?
I don't go with that. Christians have free will, and life circumstances might cause someone to turn his back on God. (I think you and I have been down this road before.)Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
WG
Jesus said:I will NEVER leave you or forsake you. Either he paid for ALL of my sins or he didn't. If he didn't... Yes I can lose my salvation... if he did, I can't. Is it a sin to leave the Lord?YES! But the bible says he paid for ALL of my sins. I used my free will to accept him. I am IN him, he is IN me and I am hidden in God.
If someone denies satan is real does that automatically mean he isn't under his influence and still under his bondage?
He exercised his free will to NOT believe there is a Satan. Does Satan have more power than God? Naaah... I can leave him but he won't leave me. AND the Holy Spirit will woo me back. I don't think many true Christians turn their backs and stay that way the rest of their lives. But even if they did... HE is faithful. What a savior!
And we can use that same free will to reject Him.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
WG,
He paid for all of my sins... all means all. He is the author and finisher of my faith... I am NOT. Thank heavens. But again, I don't believe there are many TRUE Christians that reject him and walk away for the rest of their lives. There are always exceptions but when you KNOW him, have a relationship with him, how are you going to leave never to return? It would be difficult. Of course if you just had some head knowledge about Christ and never had a personal relationship with him and rejected him... well, it is possible the person was never really saved to begin with.
Interesting you believe we can use free will to reject Christ and He will put us out of His family. However, people can use their free will to reject the notion of Satan and it doesn't take them out of his family. THINK about it.
HE doesn't put us out of His family. We could do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Scenario: Christian man's daughter is in a horrible car accident. She's hospitalized and struggles to live. He prays constantly for her survival. After a week, she dies. He becomes angry at himself for not praying hard enough and at God for not saving her. He refuses to listen to anyone/Christians who try to help him through this tragedy. He turns his back on God. A year later, on the anniversary of his daughter's death, he kills himself. (Gee, I should write a book!)
Okay, does God look into his heart and hope to see faith in there somewhere? Or the mental/emotional distress caused faith to be clouded by life circumstances, but the faith is still there -- crushed and faint, but there?
WG,
Oh my! I believe with all my heart that man who lost his daughter and committed suicide would be with the Lord Jesus. He paid for all of his sins and just because he stop believing God was Good didn't make it so. He would be with the Father... forever. He will NEVER leave us or forsake us.
WG, take that same man. Say he goes wild instead of depressed. Lets say he sleeps with woman, take drugs to ease the pain. Oh sure, he shows up to church here and there but in general he is steeped in sin. Say that man is killed accidentally from driving drunk... is he any less saved? NO... he would be with the Father. That is my story and I believe it to my core. OUR GOD is GOOD. Salvation has NOTHING to do with us.. he did it all... we only need to accept it FREELY. Freely means FREELY.
A very simple question comes to mind: if I can't do anything to merit RECEIVING salvation, what makes me think I can do something to merit LOSING it? Either grace is apart from works or it's not.
This is more than just an academic question for me. My middle daughter, who was a staunch believer in childhood, has basically turned her back on Christianity. When this change happened, she told me "I don't believe in God any more." Because I understand the nature of grace and God's forgiveness, I was able to respond in a calm voice: "That's okay. He still believes in you." And yes, I firmly believe that.
Amen Dave! Salvation isn't about us... it is about HIM and what HE did. Our part is to believe, and should we fail to keep believing and wander like stupid sheep do... he keeps us. Just like a earthy Daddy would do.
"Once saved, always saved".
It doesn't stand up to a certain kind of logic, but the idea is psychologically valid. Believers will tend to live their lives accordingly. It's true that it can also be seen as a license to sin, but this is very unlikely and surely psychologically INVALID.
On a practical level, I have seen a number of born-agains whose lives have been changed for the good by the simple belief that God is ALWAYS with them no matter what they do, and that He will never abandon them.
It's a powerful belief.
Salvation is a gift...
Generally, gifts arnt taken back.
For example, when God gives us his Holy Spirit as a gift, he doesn't take it away from someone if they later decide to stop going to church.
Ie - if someone received the Holy Spirit and then a year later left church to do their own thing and be caught up in various sins. Now if they had some kind of revelation and came back to the church, repended and so forth, they would not need to receive the Spirit for the 2nd time. Because it was a gift from the first time...
What if they didn't have a revelation and come back to the church?Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot
It is important to back you what you believe with scripture. There is NO WHERE in the bible that suggests the Holy Spirit lives in a believer and then leaves. Quite the contrary. We are sealed with him. He isn't going anywhere. If He can leave us ( which we are clearly told he WILL not) what sin is it that caused his departure. Is it many? If so HOW many? It simply isn't so. He doesn't leave and come back when someone decides to live right. The thought goes against all of what salvation IS and what Jesus DID. He DID it... there is NOTHING left for man to do but believe it. NOTHING. The law taught us that already... we can't DO IT... we never could. Jesus didn't die so that we could believe that and continue to TRY to be good enough. He finished the work and he told us to believe it. Isn't that what the thief on the cross did? HE believed Jesus was who he said he was. Not a good work involved. It is simple and we make it complicated because we do not believe that God is really that good.
So then what is the sin against the Holy Spirit? A non-believer hardening his heart so that the HS can't come in in the first place? (e.g. Pharaoh)Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
I ask again, What if they didn't have a revelation and come back to the church?
What if they didn't? What of it?Quote:
Originally Posted by ;
Is that a sin against the Holy Spirit and is that person consigned to hell? Or does God still claim him as His own?Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
WG,
we are told we can grieve the Holy Spirit and I am sure he is grieved when we turn away fro the Lord... but he NEVER leaves us or forsakes us.
My personal belief the unpardonable sin is rejecting the Holy Spirit over and over again when a person is presented with the gospel. I also think when the Lord performed all the miracles and people walked away in unbelief THAT too was blaspheming. Just my thoughts though
Is. 49:15b,16: Yes, they may forget, yet will I not forget you. Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
I agree.Quote:
My personal belief the unpardonable sin is rejecting the Holy Spirit over and over again when a person is presented with the gospel. I also think when the Lord performed all the miracles and people walked away in unbelief THAT too was blaspheming. Just my thoughts though
‘Once saved always saved is a type of self certified-salvation-obtained-in-the-here-and-now.’ This is a delusional and presumptuous state of euphoric self-justification that simply doesn’t exist. Certitude of salvation:Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
“For as no pious person ought to doubt the mercy of God, the merit of Christ and the virtue and efficacy of the sacraments, so each one, when he considers himself and his own weakness and indisposition, may have fear and apprehension concerning his own grace, since no one can know with the certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God. (The Council of Trent Session VI, January, 1547, Pope Paul III)
A salvific faith is always accompanied by hope and charity. Implied in the first half of Romans 3:28 is a faith formed in charity; a faith that moves toward God in hope – the ‘works’ of hope and charity are present in St. Paul’s understanding of justification. As to the second part of the verse “without the works of the law” St. Paul is suggesting that the ritualistic washing pots and pans will not produce faith. "Faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not."(Hebrews 11:1)
Faith is a virtue of the knowledge of God’s love hoped for but not yet realized. Furthermore, a virtuous faith is formed in charity. Hope is a movement toward, or the vision of a thing not yet realized. We know that hope is forward looking, or the effects of our hope are realized in that future. Once the future object is obtained it is no longer hope, “hope that is seen, is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for?” (Roman 8:24) “
Augustine says (De Doctr. Christ. iii, 10): "By charity I mean the movement of the soul towards the enjoyment of God for His own sake." Cf. John 15:15 (c. St. Thomas, II, II, 23, 1), i.e. friendship.
The nature of charity is:
“Charity is patient, is kind: charity envies not, deals not perversely, is not puffed up, is not ambitious, seeks not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinks no evil: Rejoices not in iniquity, but rejoices with the truth: Bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. (1 Corinthians 13:4-7)
As a consequence charity is required for justification: "Let all your things be done in charity." (1 Corinthians 16:14). Given these definitions of faith, hope, and charity we can conclude the following:
- If we have faith alone, we obtain justification in this life (i.e. salvation) then we don’t have a virtuous hope. Given that faith is defined as the substance of things hoped for, and without hope we cannot please God. Obviously this mode of obtaining salvation by faith alone and once-saved-always-saved becomes an absurdity as faith is always a lifelong struggle to persevere in hope and charity.
- If we have faith alone and we have obtained justification with certitude, not only is it not faith alone, it becomes a justification obtained without hope. This kind of faith is obtained in the great Divine lottery of predestination. This is another absurdity given that faith is formed without hope cannot be a realized as salvation in the here and now.
- If we have faith alone and somehow overcoming the previous objections, we are still left with an absurdity as that faith is formed in charity. And when added to ‘faith alone’ it is no longer a homogeneous salvation that saves in the here and now.
Once-saved-always-saved does indeed fail logic.
JoeT
Not even. I already pointed out that we don't know what this sin against the Holy Spirit is; anything we come up with is nothing but speculation. And again, I can't do anything to merit gaining salvation; how egotistical is it to think I can do anything to lose it? We're told that there will be rewards of some kind, and that some will get in by the skin of their teeth. But we don't see anybody actually losing salvation and ending up consigned to hell.Quote:
Originally Posted by ;
I have no idea what this unforgivable sin is, but I still tend to believe that if I'm worried I might have committed it, I undoubtedly haven't. Because if I had, I wouldn't care. I would be that far gone. Honestly, I couldn't say for sure that anyone in all of human history has ever committed it; it's possible Jesus was speaking hypothetically. John tells us there is a sin that leads to death, but not to hell.
Ultimately, I choose to shrug my shoulders about topics like this one, and go back to trying to focus on living the part that I DO understand.
Joe,
I don't care what popes or Augustine or councils or anybody else says. John 5:24 says the one who hears Jesus' words and believes in the One who sent him, HAS eternal life and SHALL NOT come into condemnation, but HAS PASSED from death to life.
These things are all stated as accomplished facts, a done deal. It would seem that your authorities are at odds with Jesus himself. Guess who I'm going with?
That's unfortunate. Those who hear His Apostles and their successors truly hear Christ.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.Luke 10:16
JoeT
I hear the apostles through their writings. But I do not believe they had any "successors." Once the eyewitnesses passed off the scene, that was it for apostleship in the Peter-James-John sense. Beyond that, my view carries just as much authority as Augustine's or anyone else's. So does ClassyT's, yours, and all the rest of us. I don't buy apostolic succession. Looking at the history of the church, that idea was little more than a power grab. But we could go around and around about that all day and all night. I would rather see you deal with the verse in John that I mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by ;
That's it? Do you think Divine Justice rewards by throwing you off like a used snot rag? Nor does it make much sense. Only four gospels were written and only two of them by the original TWELVE. Consequently, what you do have in the way of the bible is at best second hand from the Apostles, third generation from Christ. In spite of the fact that you think Christ came just for you, He came for all of mankind; inviting them to friendship by partaking of His sacrament, i.e. the Catholic Church, originally known as 'The Way'.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
And such a limited view too, completely devoiced from the Divine Church's history and doctrine. It must be lonely, just you and what you think is Christ.Quote:
Beyond that, my view carries just as much authority as Augustine's or anyone else's.
?Quote:
So does ClassyT's, yours, and all the rest of us.
Its not for sale.Quote:
I don't buy apostolic succession.
And such a limited view makes you a poor judge for the Saints.Quote:
Looking at the history of the church, that idea was little more than a power grab.
I would be happy to discuss the verse of John if I knew what it was.Quote:
But we could go around and around about that all day and all night. I would rather see you deal with the verse in John that I mentioned.
JoeT
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