what if person sin again after being saved?
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what if person sin again after being saved?
In Christianity, the answer will depend on what part or group within Christianity they belong to.
Some groups teach that once you are saved, you are forgiven and if you error and sin again, you are still saved.
You may have lessor rewards in heaven but will be saved.
Others teach that depending on how serious the sin ( we all sin every day) do you speed when driving, do you get angry when someone cuts you off when driving. Are you tempted or day dream sexually when you see someone of the other sex slightly dressed.
So for some, you need to repent often and ask God to forgive you.
And for others, there is somewhere between, that unless you do a serious sin, and do it willfully, you are saved.
You question looks like a twofold one to me. You will only be saved if you gain Heaven when you die. That will be your reward for your earthen deeds and it will be eternal. So once you are saved you cannot possibly sin again, for you are already enjoying the view of God.Quote:
Originally Posted by blaine_jack
On the other hand, if by saved you mean to be forgiven in the act of confession, according to the RC Church, then if you sin again you will have to repent of your sin before your own conscience or confess again.
One of the things, however, that seem to become at present less mandatory in the RC Church is the Sacrament of Penance.
Therefore if your new sin is not too big and somber as long as you feel sincerely sorry for it chances are that your salvation will still be in force.
I put it like that, because in actual fact, NO ONE can be sure of his/her salvation till he/she faces the Supreme Judge!
Gromitt82
1 John 2
1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
-----
Let's just go with what the BIBLE teaches us. Is this a credit card to do whatever we want? By all means NO... but it shows the love and mercy of our Lord and I thank God everyday for His grace. There is no sin that the blood of Jesus cannot wash away and if we confess our sin to Him, He is faithful to forgive us.
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Blaine, being a Christian doesn't mean you now walk perfect everyday. It simply means we now have the grace to do what we weren't able to before salvation. Yes, there is a call to Holy living... and much needs to be said about that, but when we fall short... as we all do... God is there to uphold us by His might hand.
"Blaine, being a Christian doesn't mean you now walk perfect everyday"
very true.
salvation is a gift. No one doesn't NOT sin when they become christians, we're still human.
Agreed. Everybody sins. We don't "gain" heaven, it's given to us freely in spite of ourselves. If I couldn't do enough to merit gaining salvation in the first place, it doesn't make sense that I could do enough to merit losing it later on. That's not how a gift works. If I try to live in sin after being saved, I'll be about as happy as a pig skydiving, but I'll still be saved. Living for the Lord after being saved is for our benefit, not God's, because we're much happier that way. Seek the Lord, do your best, and ask him to forgive your failings. He will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot
I suppose that when you use the word save you actually mean forgive, don't you?Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
On the other hand, to the best of my knowledge, only Catholic priests, through the Sacrament of Confession are able to forgive our sins. Other than that, we can, of course, repent of our sins, but we shall not know whether we have been forgiven until we take the oneway train that will take us before God...
Gromitt82
Excuse me, but no human can forgive my sins. Even the Jewish leaders of Jesus' day acknowledged that only God can forgive sins. That was why they got so upset when Jesus declared a man's sins forgiven. The New Testament repeatedly says that we are forgiven when we repent, so if your church teaches something else, then it's wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by gromitt82
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
Excuse me, my dear Dwashbur, but I think that your knowledge of the New Testament leaves somewhat to be desired.
In John 20:23, according to the New Int.l Version, you can read: If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
In Mt 16:19, after the same version, you can read:
“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
In Mt 18:18, Jesus adds: "I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven”
In Revelation 1:18, John says: “I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades”.
In Revelation 3:7, John continues: “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open”
In Mk 11:26, the Evangelist writes: “But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your transgressions."
I have been quoting the Bible of the New In.l Version to simplify but in all the other versions I have, including the KJV, there can be found the same text with little variations.
The point, however, is that, obviously, all the above reflect the way the Evangelist translate what Jesus said, which in fact, boils down to the institution of the Sacrament of Penance or Confession by Jesus, himself.
It is true that this institution has been debated ever since the Council of Trent, but it is also no less true that, in 1907, Pius X, clearly declared the relevance of the Gospel of John 20:22-23 (above mentioned), in his Encyclical Lamentabili Sane Exitu, thus, overriding all previous statements.
Notwithstanding the above, an interesting point to ponder is that already in the O.T. Isaiah 22:22, already predicts: “I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.” Which tantamounts to the same.
As you can, therefore, see some Humans are “officially” authorized by the “Big Boss”, himself, (with all due respect) to forgive man’s sins. A different thing altogether is that you DO NOT like to confess your sins to some priest you do not even know.
In fact, I don’t either.
And I must add that the RCC lately has become very lenient about the need to confess before taking the Communion, as long as one feels SINCERELY SORRY AND REPENTS FOR HIS/HER SINS.
Still, the Sacrament is ALWAYS in force!!
On the other hand, using your own argument, I must conclude that when you were talking of being saved you were speaking only of repentance. And then you are also wrong, because NOBODY can guarantee that this type of personal repentance implies GOD’s forgiveness.
Best regards
Gromitt82
Ummm...
Romans 6:23 "... the FREE gift of god is eternal life through Jesus christ our lord"
Romans 10:9: "If you declare with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Ephesians 2:8/9: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
And..?Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot
None of these quotes reject the institution of the Sacrament of Penance and certainly, as they refer to several letters Paul of Tarsus wrote to the Ephesians and to the Romans, they only emphasize what Saint Paul -and most Christians- believe.
As for the quote of 1 John 1:9, he actually mentions "if we confess our sins". He cannot refer to God, for there is no need to confess our sins to God, who is perfectly aware of whatever we do or of how we behave.
He is therefore referring to someone down here, i.e. a priest!
Gromitt82
No no no, God KNOWS we've sinned but he wants us to ADMIT it and come in humility.
In 1 john 1:9 it does not refer to a Priest. From 1:5 to 1:10 it is all refferenced to God.
In john 20:23 doesn't mean "man can forgive sins" it means you can go to someone and say to them: "if you receive jesus you are forgiven"
I think your totally missing the point in romans 10:9 too. It doesn't say "if you go to a priest" it says "if you declare with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart, you will be saved"
I hope this is a joke. If you're serious, then you seem to know very little about the Bible. David confessed his sins to God numerous times in the Psalms. Plenty of others confessed their sins to God throughout the Bible. Of course God knows what we've done; confession is for our benefit, not His. We confess to god to come clean. It's for clearing the conscience. But our willingness to come to God and say "I was wrong" is the basis of His forgiveness. Why? Because we won't accept forgiveness until we know we need it. He offers, but until we admit it's needed, we won't take it. It's perfectly simple: go to God in humility and say "I sinned." He says "I forgive you and cleanse you from all unrighteousness." No need for any earthly person.Quote:
Originally Posted by gromitt82
If you want to cram a priest into this verse, you're going to need a bigger shoehorn, because there was no such thing when John wrote that sentence. According to 1 Peter 2:9, we're all priests, in fact we're a royal priesthood. The kind of priest that the RCC has came along later, and is contrary to what the Bible actually says.
I'll try to address your other verses later on; at the moment I have to get ready to go to a service at Joe's Church and Vacuum Cleaner Repair.
a... confess doesn't mean awareness it's admission... u admit 2 God that you have sinned and you humble yourself to Him for forgiveness.. and of course Riot is right, it refers to God alone, kindly read the whole chapter for you to understand
Ooooooh, we disagree my buddy ol pal. The gospel of grace says we are forgiven/saved after we BELIEVE. We are either covered under the blood or we aren't. It doesn't need to be applied by repenting over and over every time we mess up. Now, do I really think we disagree? NOPE but I thought I'd get something started... for grins. :D but who knows you can be a bit screwy sometimes... maybe you will fight me on it. Ha.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
If you want to fight with Dwashbur it is up to you, though I feel sorry for you. At any rate, I will not enter any debate with you re. what you say... but also just for grins :D you just wait, coronel Higgings, you just wait... and you will see..Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Gromitt82
We daily sin and we daily repent and ask for forgiveness.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Of course, if you don't sin any longer, there's no problem.
Of course, if she does not sin, no problem whatsoever... But does not she?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Gromitt82:D
I'm looking forward to her response.Quote:
Originally Posted by gromitt82
Good luck!Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Gromitt82:confused:
She's a "once saved, always saved" believer, so I guess I am not surprised about the forgiveness belief.
Martin Luther:
What does such baptizing with water signify?
It signifies that the old Adam in us should, by daily contrition and repentance, be drowned and die with all sins and evil lusts, and, again, a new man daily come forth and arise; who shall live before God in righteousness and purity forever.
Actually, we agree. The problem is that I was vague. I referred to repentance in the Acts 2:38 sense. I agree with the others that daily confession and forgiveness is a must, a la 1 John 1:9, but thanks for pointing out my little slip of the keyboard :DQuote:
Originally Posted by classyT
WG,Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I am a sinner. I sin and probably daily. Sometimes I don't even KNOW I have sinned. How can I confess what I do not recognize as sin or even FORGET to confess. There is no way everyone confesses everything as hard as they might try. It is just another work that the finished work of Christ already paid in full. I confess and talk to the Lord concerning my sins for my relationship with him. But like I said, sometimes I don't even remember. He has me covered. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from ALL sin. I choose to be Christ conscience rather than sin conscience.
It's not the point of confession to remember every single sin. With your reasoning, you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
WG,
No I'm not! Look if confession is really required than it is REALLY required. You can't have it both ways. That's my take. We confess for our relationship with Him not at all to maintain our salvation. No way... no how. :)
Read the stories of all those Bible people who confessed their sin on a regular, even daily, basis. I'm not having anything both ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
I never said a word about using daily confession to maintain our salvation.
For both ClassyT and WGQuote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I do not see the point in debating over the subject of confession. I guess it is a matter of personal convictions. Even in the RCC, right now, lots of people take the Communion at the Mass without having previously received the official forgiveness of their sins (which only 40 years ago was mandatory) and it is left to each one to repent of his/her sins WITHOUT CONFESSING. By the same token, many are confessing every week while at the Mass.
Only one thing is certain. Confession or NO confession, we shall ALL, one day, face the Great Confessor who will determine the degree of penance we must undergo.
Gromitt82:rolleyes::rolleyes:
Jesus made the complete sacrifice, so when this life ends, there will no longer be a need to repent.Quote:
Originally Posted by gromitt82
If you think so hAKUNA MATATA AND GOOD LUCK TO YOU!Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Gromitt82:o:o
True, I believe if you are truly saved you can't lose it. How could you? I couldn'[t renounce Jesus today and be done with him because I'm sealed with the Holy Spirit for he has promised to NEVER leave me or forsake me ;anymore than a unbeliever who doesn't believe in Satan can renounce satan and be done with him. Just because a person doesn't believe in Satan doesn't make him NOT under his control. I can't sin my way out either because where sin abounds grace much MORE abounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
But some have renounced Him. Vehemently so. And never changed their minds.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
WG,
And IF they were REALLY saved (not just head knowledge) they are STILL in Christ. I imagine most that give him up never had him in the first place. Remember the parable of the sower...
It was more than head knowledge, but bad things happened to them or to loved ones, and they cursed God, vehemently rejected Him. Others acquired higher education and rejected their Christian beliefs in favor of common sense and advanced understanding of how the world works.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
I've been through this with one of my daughters. She once told me she didn't believe in God any more. I simply replied, that's okay, God still believes in you. It took several years but she's slowly making her way back. With some people that happens, with others it doesn't. I don't even pretend to understand it all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
How do you know it was more than head knowledge? How can anyone be sure?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I completely reject the notion that someone was really saved but because they got a higher education and advanced understanding of how the world works they gave up Christ. They never had HIM. They had a "religion". How are you going to read the Bible and have any wisdom whatsoever of it and give it up? How are you going to have a REAL relationship with the Lord and turn to "advanced understanding". I don't believe Judas was ever REAL either by the way... there are plenty of people who say they are saved but they just aren't. The first new thing out there they are on it. I know someone like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Just a short reminder of the passage of Matthew's Gospel.
."..while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth..." (Matthew 8:12)
Many of these sons of the kingdom are convinced they deserve the Salvation. What a big dissapointmet they may have... and n othing left for them but "the weeping and gnashing of teeth..."
Gromitt82
Grom,
Thanks for the reminder but I haven't forgotten the passage. I do not believe the Lord Jesus is referring to blood bought believers. It is a very sobering verse though.
Dave,Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
Here it the thing. I personally never stopped believing in God. BUT... I have lived like He didn't matter. So which is worse? Did I lose my salvation? Did she? Because your daughter has questions or is skeptical.. does that mean she isn't saved? I don't think so.. I saw my niece go through the same thing... she is right where she needs to be. She always was... the Lord showed himself to be true. He never left her even in all her doubt. He is called the ROCK. We are called sheep. I think that says it all.
Sheep wander away from the flock and are eaten by wolves or coyotes.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
WG,
That is why Jesus is called the good shepherd. I'm not too worried about wolves or coyotes because I'm under HIS care. :)
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