How has Christanity, a faith based on the teachings of one text(the Bible), divided into so many denominations?
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How has Christanity, a faith based on the teachings of one text(the Bible), divided into so many denominations?
It all boils down to tradition. Even within Catholics depending on what part of the world your in the traditions and celebrations and even mass are different. There are so many people who interpret the bible differently and this would be the cause of so many denominations. Interpretation is very much the factor. Different people, see things differently at the same time the goal, God and Jesus are all the same.
Joe
Because people start focusing on their own selfish desires instead of on the Lord Jesus Christ and his word in the Holy Bible... it is really sad, but most people claiming to be Christians probably don't really know ChristQuote:
Originally Posted by idell64
I could point out that the Bible(taken from the word biblias or books) is not one text but 66 different books by 40 different authors over 1600 years of time. But, we as Christians believe that all the Bible is inspired by God and that he is essentially the author of it all. Just as 10 eyewitnesses to the same accident can give a different account, we all have our biases and predjudices and preferences by our culture, our upbringing, our level of intelligence, etc. Paul the apostle had to correct Peter the apostle in one instance and once Paul circumcised a man traveling with him(tho he didn't believe it necessary) so that the group he was going to be speaking to would even listen to him. Each denomination has different things they consider to be important or what makes them feel more comfortable in worship. True Christians do not come from any one group but from all groups.
(One sign a group is a cult, is if they maintain that absolutely no one can get into heaven or paradise unless they are a member of that group)
Scripture has told us that grace is given in measure of the gift of Christ. (Eph 4:7) Knowing this we can expect many different levels of wisdom and knowledge that have been given to whoever Christ has elected. To each that is given, will be for the fulfillment of HIM and all things.Quote:
Originally Posted by idell64
(Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers)
All done to offer us the love from Our Father throught Christ Jesus. In the hope of salvation further taught NOW by a ministry knowledgeable in " HIS Will "... correction brought to us by the body of Christ, in forgiveness of sin, and set free from the bondage of sin. We are offered the new man (Eph 4:24), in an image of righteousness, and in hope of being born again of Spirit to live holy as he is HOLY. Abiding in HIM and HIM in us, knowing we can be the perfect man in the fulness of Christ..
(Eph 4:12-13 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ)
However it is also written to beware of false prophets and false teaching that can beguile you from the simplicity of Christ Jesus (2 Cr 11:3) AND I would rebuke those who speak of keeping man in sin, and calling someone unclean that God has made clean.
For it is man's choice to answer the call of God in belief of ONE GOD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM.
AND to REJOICE in boasting by the one excluded boast... known as THE LAW of FAITH (Romans 3:27)
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Blah blah blah people over the years change around the bible or try to go by it the way they want to try to make everyone "perfect". Which ends up spreading hatred and separation.Once you believe in God, the Holy Spirit and have faith and are a humble person that's all that matters.
People can imagine what they want. It would be like staying in Disney World rather then living in reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by tai18
The reality of life is, good and bad being done. Look around you.... (and) Discipline is the mold that can help in keeping us in love. Of course evil hates discipline.
And the reality of Christianity is that there is a begotten Son of God, who was sent to walk in reality of life here on earth. Who did do all that is written out of love for us. To help us, and bring us to what is perfect.
The reality of evil is, hatred and it separates our lives from God.
Does it matter? You can imagine that God and the Holy Spirit are out there somewhere. But I would say when it is time to go home... Home is with God in a world not like this world. Home is the perfect world of righteousnesss. And there the reality is God holds power, protection, and is our only hope in life. A life of righteousness, and love. Faith is what justifies us to come home. Faith in what God has done in all things to mold us for the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Imagine what you want, but reality is God's way, and HIS will to be done.
Tai18,Quote:
Originally Posted by tai18
I know where you're coming from. If you are about 18, this is the same time I myself made the same statements you've made. I never considered (at the time)the following questions so I hope you will:
1.What makes you think the Bible was changed around? When? What parts of it? Who did this? What did it say before it was changed? What part of the Bible that was changed do you wish was changed back to the original?
2. Since sin is NOT loving,(either God, others, or yourself) how does wanting people to stop sinning spread hatred and separation?
3. Doess the Devil believe in God?
4. What specifically, should you have faith in?
5. What defines a humble person?
6. If what you said IS all that matters, did Jesus waste His life dying on a cross for nothing?
The conversation seems to have morphed from the initial question, so let's see if we can get back on track..
Why are there so many denominations if all are based on a common bible? I think it has to do with the nature of how people in groups behave - large groups always fragment into smaller groups, as each constituency thinks it has a better handle on how to be "true" to the bible than any other. Think of this analogy from the secular world - here in the US we have one common constitution, yet we have political groups that range from liberal to ultra-conservative that all claim to be living by the constitution; we have groups that are for rights of gun ownership and groups that are for gun control; groups that are "pro-choice" and groups that are "pro-life," groups that support capital punishment and groups that are against capital punishment - and every one one of these factions claim to have their belief grounded in the Constitution. I don't want to get int a debate about the merits of any of these positions here, but I think it's indicative of how one document (the Constitution) can have "followers" with widely different views of how to interpret it. And for what it's worth, essentially all major religions have had major splits within their ranks causing different "denominations" - it's certainly true of Judaism an Islam, for example. So again, it's in man's nature that no single large group can exist without multiple factions evolving.
The premise that Christianity is based on the teachings from one book, in my opinion, is somewhat flawed. Christ fulfilled His ministry teaching by word of mouth. Not only did Christ feed the hungry and cure the sick, He also established His Vicar, a representative acting "in the person of" Christ and commissioned a Church to continue to teach. Christ did not leave us his writings.Quote:
Originally Posted by idell64
However, Peter’s keys to teach have been passed from Pope to Pope since Christ. Though inspired by God, the text came later as a special form of this teaching tradition. The text cannot discern from one age to the next, nor can it discern from one interpretation to the next, nor does it reveal more of God’s truth. So, to say there is one teaching based on one text is an oxymoron. The reason is quite simple, without one authority to interpret the text, lending credence to the text; the number of denominations will continue to grow until it matches the number of protesters. Obviously, not recognizing an authority each feels free to interpret the meaning to conform to his own will.
JoeT
Actually, look at scripture and see what Jesus Himself used when doctrinal questions arose - He always validated His points by going straight back to scripture. If Jesus used scripture, why should we go to words of men?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
This is also outside of scripture - Not only is there nothing known as "Peter's keys" in scripture, there is nothing about a pope or papal succession.Quote:
However, Peter’s keys to teach have been passed from Pope to Pope since Christ.
There are many different reasons for different denominations.Quote:
Originally Posted by ebaines
The Bible does not promise denominational unity, nor that denominations would be the standard of truth. Denominations did not exist in the 1st Century. Churches are a mix of believers and unbelievers. Jesus prayed for unity amongst believers not churches or denominations. This was answered when the new ministry of the Holy Spirit indwelling believers began.
Denominations came about for many reasons:
- Common region or language
- Common beginnings
- Common ministry / mission
- Some came about due to doctrinal emphasis (non-essentials)
- Some came about because of difference on essentials
Where denominations have arisen because of doctrinal differences, this is typically because men have chosen to add their own interpretations to scripture, or to make their denomination supreme over God's word, or to claim only their leadership can rightly interpret or add to the Bible, or they add their denominational traditions to what scripture says.
Denominations therefore are not, in and of themselves bad. They only become an issue when we place the denomination over scripture rather than submitting ourselves to God's word.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
No fake preachers here please.No clue why you quoted me.Everyone has their own opinion. Mine religion separates us all."homosexuality" is a "sin" some get thrown out of Gods house church where everyone is welcomed ,by "priest" people who are supposed to be teaching God. They now even say being overweight is a "SIN" that you "love food more then you love God" rubbish they change around the bible to their own evil deeds of what they think is perfect and spread it in the lives of everyone which separates us all and causes hate. Once you have faith,humbleness and believe in God that's all that matters.My opinion.
Anyone can make up their own belief system, but without validation, it is nothing more than a personal belief. How have you validated that your belief is the only true one?Quote:
Originally Posted by tai18
I don't recall writing my views are the "only true ones".as I have written these are MY opinions. & I respect everyone else own viewsQuote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Because, as you mentioned, the Bible is faith-based, it's left up to people to translate and interpret it's meaning, so it's entirely based on opinion which is arguable. The individual's goal is to read it himself and find his own meaning.Quote:
Originally Posted by idell64
I was raised Greek Orthodox and thought it was the only form of Christianity until I was 12 or so because we were always taught it's the "original church". Services really haven't changed all that much in their 2,000 year history. Pope John Paul II even went to Greece in 2001, first time in almost 1,000 years, he and his entourage were greeted with protests. That's all held-over from the Great Schism.
Anyway, one is always more right than the other. It reminds me of the "Go God Go" and "Go God Go II" of Southpark. Watch 'em both, they're relevant to this question.
However, you do seem to be putting down those who disagree with your position. Further, since Christianity states that there is ONLY one true God, and ONLY one true gospel, though we can respect the right of others to hold vaying beliefs (and I do), it is impossible for all beliefs to be equally valid.Quote:
Originally Posted by tai18
By the fact that you are putting down the beliefs of others, you appear to have some basis for believing that your beliefs are more correct. What is your basis for that position?
I guess I need to repeat myself I never stated my views are the "only true ones" everyone is entailed to have their own and I RESPECT that I don't jump on every person that writes they have a different view about something and say "HOW ARE YOU CORRECT ABOUT THIS???" everyone has their own views. I couldn't care less if all beliefs are valid or not its better then not believing anything,maybe all religions play a role in something who really knows,just like you care deeply about Christianity there are people that care deeply about there religion so I won't tell them they are wrong about everything because they are respected and it is not my place to judge anyone I will leave that up to God just like it isn't anyone's place to preach unless they are living by it 100%. I will say again MY OPINION. Have a nice dayQuote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I disagree. Believing something which is wrong can be very dangerous because it can lead a person to feel comfortable that all is okay when in fact it is not. Let me give another analogy. If you take your car to someone who claims to be a mechanic, but you do not validate his credentials, and he tells you your brakes are great. You may believe that everything is fine, only to find out, when driving down the highway at 60 miles per hour that you are without any brakes.Quote:
Originally Posted by tai18
Now, why should I care? Well, using that analogy, would you knowingly send anyone out in a car like that with the realization that it had been inspected by someone who does not know what they are doing? Could you let someone go without warning them?
[QUOTE=homesell;1773934] [QUOTE]True Christians do not come from any one group but from all groups.[/QUOTE
Surely we should worship God in a way that HE approves, not in a way that we feel comfortable or the way we interpret the scriptures. The bible clearly defines what is acceptable to God and what is not when it comes to true worship.
Galatians 5:19-21 gives us an indication of what is not acceptable to God, among these "works of the flesh" are "divisions and sects" which will not inherit God's kingdom. Does this not sound like there should be only ONE group of True followers whom God will accept? Surely not all religious groups can possibly be approved by God when they all teach and believe different things.
Think of the ancient nation of Israel. They were ONE group of God's chosen ones who were under strict law not to practice any of the rituals/celebrations of pagan nations around them.
This is no different for God's people today. So many pagan rituals/celebrations have oozed into so called chirstian religion and have tainted the truth for many today.
2 Tim 4:3,4 "For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories."
We are in that period.
Nothing in scripture even suggest that we are to follow a single denomination of organization. In fact quite the contrary:Quote:
Originally Posted by Moparbyfar
1 Cor 12:27-28
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
NKJV
Those who are saved are members individually of the body of Christ, not part of a manmade organization.
Exactly Tj3, the body of Christ. He is our Exemplar and what he did and what he instructed for us to do is all there in the scriptures. Manmade organisations whether they be formed yesterday or 3000 years ago have no place in God's acceptable worship. Those who wish to serve God acceptably will do so based entirely on the scriptures.
Deut 31:12 and Hebrews 10:24, 25 encourages us to gather together to spiritually upbuild one another, whether young or old so as to benefit from the regular spiritual food provided by the "faithful and discreet slave whom Jesus master (his father) appointed over all his domestics to keep giving them food at the proper time." (Matt 24:45). These domestics are separate from those who claim to be followers of Christ as he himself said in Matt 7:22, 23.
So although there are many who say they are christians, few will actually be saved. It requires us acting in harmony with the accurate knowledge found in the bible and as I said before, these requirements are clearly outlined for all of us, maybe some more than others? :D
Agree, because scripture is the flesh of Christ.. Christ is The WORD of God.. Scripture was inspired by the Holy Spirit, and it is the revealed truth of Our Father in Heaven. If you believe in Christ, if you believe in the Holy Spirit, and if you believe in God's power of creation, then the reality of scripture is HIS labor of love for us, just as THE WORD tells us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moparbyfar
Agree, if we hold stedfast in Faith of Christ Jesus. We must "Trust in Christ", we must "Rest in full belief and faith in HIS worthyness". " To glory in God the Father", because we were set free from the bondage of sin, and able to repent upon the blood of Christ Jesus who paid the price for our forgiveness from sin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moparbyfar
BUT, we can not build again in sin nor should we destroy what Christ brought us. We throught Faith are to be dead in Christ and not to abide in sin, but to abide in HIS righteousnesss. Christ is not the minister of sin! Do not be a transgressor to destroy what was built in forgiveness by our faith in Christ. (Gal 2:18) AND do not fall from grace and consent to the law of sin which is good as the schoolmaster.
(Romans 6:16)(Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace)
Should you doubt "Faith in Christ", then you eat of the body of Christ in sin unto damnation. (Romans 14:23)
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
GREEN Tag GREEN Tag GREEN TagQuote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. KJV
What exactly do you mean by this? Scripture doesn't mention light-bulbs. Is it impermissible to use electric light suring worship? Well, presumably not, so precisely what constraints to you take this to impose on the worship of God? It's not clear to me what the force of "based entirely on" really is. Perhaps you could expand a bit on what you have in mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moparbyfar
Why do you say this? Do you find this claim in Scripture somewhere?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moparbyfar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
Moparbyfar can speak for himself.. But if indeed we believe that scripture offers all that is acceptable to serve God then it is scripture that can answer the question, and yes it is found in scripture.
Scripture is the gospel of the Kingdom of God pledged in Christ Jesus. Christ is the Flesh of scripture that is written (The Word of God)sent by the grace of God according to HIS Will.
Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Believe in Christ Jesus! The proclamation of the grace of God manifest and pledged in Christ is the gospel.
Mark 1:1-2 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
2 Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ
We must remember the gospel is glorified in Christ Name according to the grace of God.
[QUOTE=Akoue Why do you say this? Do you find this claim in Scripture somewhere?[QUOTE]
2 Tim 3:16, 17 "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man [or woman] of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work".
There were and have always been laws and principles to follow since Adam and Eve. They were not free to do and what they wished. They had to live within God's guidelines. When those guidelines were broken, their blessings from God was taken away and so were their lives. The same with Noah, Abraham, Joseph, Job, King David, Daniel, Jonah, even Jesus. They all worshipped God in a way that he approved, and although some strayed from the truth (eg King David), as long as they were truly repentant of their wrongdoing, they could find favour with God again.
God is the one who knows what's best for us, after all, HE CREATED US. So it makes sense that he is the one to look to for guidance, hence the importance of using his word the Bible as our "manual" for a happy, successful life.
Jesus set the best example because he based all his teachings on the Bible. He said in John 17:17 "Your word is truth" in prayer to his father. Everything he taught harmonised with the scriptures. The account of Satan tempting him in the book of Matthew proves just how closedly Jesus stuck to the scriptures by quoting them each time in answer to Satan's attempts. (Matt 4:1-11)
Jesus described in Matt 24:11 what we can expect as a sign of his presence, that "many false prophets would arise and mislead many" vs 14 "and this good news of the kingdom shall be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations and then the end will come."
What is that good news? Is it being preached by all Christians throughout the earth to all?
So I say this not because it is a claim but because it has been emphasised by so many throughout the bible as proof that there is indeed only ONE true religion, based entirely on the God's Word.
I notice that none of the Scriptures you quote state that the Gospel is identical to, or contained in its entirety within, the written text of the NT. The Gospel is the message, the good news, that Christ brought to God's people. I don't see anything that states that the whole of that message is contained in the pages of the Bible. But, of course, there are plenty of places in the NT where we are told to uphold and abide by oral teachings. This seems to suggest--in fact, it unambiguously affirms--that there are teachings that are precisely not to be found in the Bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
In other words, then, I think you are quite mistaken to assert that "scripture offers all that is acceptable to serve God". In fact, this looks to me like a dangerous assumption that is gainsayed by Scripture itself.
[QUOTE=Moparbyfar;1780536]Your earlier statement that our worship of God should be "based entirely on Scripture" would seem to suggest that Scripture alone is entirely sufficient. But the passage you quote from 2Tim. Doesn't say that at all. It says that Scripture is inspired by God (everyone agrees with this), that it is beneficial for teaching, reproving, setting things straight, and for the purposes of discipline (no one disagrees with this either). It says that Scripture is beneficial for these purposes. It precisely does not say that Scripture alone is sufficient for these things. Now, perhaps I have misunderstood your earlier statement and you did not mean to suggest that Scripture alone is sufficient. If I have, I apologize. But, as I say, this is how I understood you, and if I have not misunderstood then I am afraid you are mistaken. Scripture does not say that Scripture alone is sufficient. On the contrary, it repeatedly states that we are to uphold and abide by oral teachings. This means, then, that we are to rely upon both Scripture and oral tradition and not one to the neglect of the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue Why do you say this? Do you find this claim in Scripture somewhere?[QUOTE
Yes, you are exactly right.Quote:
There were and have always been laws and principles to follow since Adam and Eve. They were not free to do and what they wished. They had to live within God's guidelines. When those guidelines were broken, their blessings from God was taken away and so were their lives. The same with Noah, Abraham, Joseph, Job, King David, Daniel, Jonah, even Jesus. They all worshipped God in a way that he approved, and although some strayed from the truth (eg King David), as long as they were truly repentant of their wrongdoing, they could find favour with God again.
We ought to rely upon the Bible, that is true, but not to the neglect of those teachings of Christ and the Apostles which were transmitted orally and were not included within the text of the NT as we have it.Quote:
God is the one who knows what's best for us, after all, HE CREATED US. So it makes sense that he is the one to look to for guidance, hence the importance of using his word the Bible as our "manual" for a happy, successful life.
I'm not comfortable with the idea that the Bible is a manual (or "manual") for happiness and success. This makes it sound a bit like a self-help book. Worldly happiness and success are by no means guaranteed. Our goal ought rather to be eternal life with our heavenly Father. Many have suffered mightily for the faith, after all.
While you are exactly right to point out the Jesus used the Bible as a pedagogical tool, I wouldn't say that he "based" his teachings on the Bible--which in his case was the OT. Jesus was God. He "based" his teachings on his eternal truth. Or, rather, his teachings were expressions of his eternal truth.Quote:
Jesus set the best example because he based all his teachings on the Bible. He said in John 17:17 "Your word is truth" in prayer to his father. Everything he taught harmonised with the scriptures. The account of Satan tempting him in the book of Matthew proves just how closedly Jesus stuck to the scriptures by quoting them each time in answer to Satan's attempts. (Matt 4:1-11)
Where is the end, then? There have been false prophets, many false prophets, since the age of the Apostles. The word has been disseminated. And still the end has not come. Why do you suppopse that is?Quote:
Jesus described in Matt 24:11 what we can expect as a sign of his presence, that "many false prophets would arise and mislead many" vs 14 "and this good news of the kingdom shall be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations and then the end will come."
Yes.Quote:
What is that good news? Is it being preached by all Christians throughout the earth to all?
So I say this not because it is a claim but because it has been emphasised by so many throughout the bible as proof that there is indeed only ONE true religion, based entirely on the God's Word.
I thank you for your thoughtful reply to my questions. It is a testament to the thoughtfulness of your post that points of agreement and disagreement have come clearly to light.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
To the glory of God.. "The Gospel" the glad tidings of the kingdom of God soon to be set up, and subsequently also of Jesus the Messiah, the founder of this kingdom.
QUOTE by sndbay #26: Scripture is the gospel of the Kingdom of God pledged in Christ Jesus.
I don't acknowledge there being another Kingdom or any other power and dominion then Christ Jesus. That is clearly stated in (Eph 2:22) No other to give glory and honor to, then that which is written of in scripture which is the glad tidings of salvation through Christ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
From what is written that is the whole of everything contained in the Bible is The Word of Truth, and The Flesh of Christ is the excellence of the Kingdom of God.
The oral teaching written of in scripture were to establish Christ, and were told by those anointed by God. (2 Cr 1:22-23) They were sealed and given the spirit of God within their hearts. They themselves did not hold dominion over anyone but rather were sent to help others in Faith of Christ Jesus. (2 Cr 1:24)
Christ himself said I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. (John 17:6)
The Word of God known in scripture is sanctify as truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, (let him speak as) the oracles of God; if any man minister, (let him do it as) of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Interesting that you appear to be denying what Paul said:Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
2 Tim 3:13-17
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
NKJV
This does not say that we need something outside of scripture - it says that the gospel is found IN scripture, and that by scripture the man of God may be COMPLETE, THOROUGHLY EQUIPPED for EVERY good work.
You appear to be saying that there is another gospel outside of scripture, or that we need part of the gospel which is not found in scripture, and that in and of itself is unscriptural.
Jesus' words were the source of doctrine for the apostles. That means that the entire Christian message is based on oral tradition. Additionally, the apostles used written revelations and doctrines found in the OT. As much as 90% of the NT is based on authoritative oral tradition (i.e. from Jesus to his disciples), and the remaining 10% is from written sources.
Paul was referring to the OT, specifically the Ten Commandments. Those were the only "Holy Scriptures" he knew about. The NT hadn't been written yet. In fact, his letters were the first writings of what later became the NT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
The oral teaching which you are speaking of would be Christ Jesus who said himself that he manifested HIS Father's name unto the men which HIS Father gave HIM out of the world: Those souls were God's and God gave them to Jesus/flesh, Christ/anointed, begotten son of God. And those soul kept God's word/scripture (John 17:6)Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
2 Cr 1:21-22 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
2 Cr 1:24 ... Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
It says that Scripture is profitable for four things (doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in rigtheousness) and that these four things make "the man of God complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work" (Note: good work, not salvation).Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
So unless "profitable" is synonymous with "sufficient", this passage does not say that we don't need anything apart from Scripture. It also doesn't say that the whole of God's revelation is contained in Scripture. It says that Scripture is inspired by God. Notice that I have said nothing at odds with that: Yes, Scripture is inspired by God. Now where exactly does it say that all of God's revelation is contained in Scripture?
What I am saying is that there is nothing in Scripture that says that the whole of the Gospel is contained in Scripture. I am also saying that we should obey Scripture when it tells us to uphold and abide by oral teachings (teachings which, since they are oral, are not contained in the written text of the Bible).Quote:
You appear to be saying that there is another gospel outside of scripture, or that we need part of the gospel which is not found in scripture, and that in and of itself is unscriptural.
Oh, and I'm also saying that you have radically misunderstood 2Tim.3.13-17. I've explained your error above.
I'll also second Wondergirl's excellent point, that the Scriptures referred to at 2Tim.3 are those that belong to the OT not to the NT.
Interesting how you ignored part of the passage. I can only guess why, but here is the first part of the passage that you ignored:Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
"14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. "
Now that I have explained your error, perhaps you might want to read it once again in context.
How on earth does this pose problems for anything that I've said. No one has denied that value of Scripture, only its sufficiency. So yes, Scripture (the Scripture referred to here is the OT) "makes you wise for salvation". This doesn't say that the whole of God's revelation to his people is contained in Scripture. Since the Scripture it refers to is the OT, why don't you limit yourself to it? Why do you use the NT at all if you think that the whole of God's revelation to his people is contained in the OT? Do you think that "which are able to make you wise for salvation" means "contains the whole of God's revelation to his people"? If so, that would be an odd and surprising synomymy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Why don't you explain why you think that anything I have said is at odds with this.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, there was no NT at this time. The Holy Scriptures Paul referred to could only have been the OT, the Law in particular, the knowledge of which and adherence to was bridged, Paul notes, by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross (oral tradition alert!).Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Assuming that Paul referred solely to the OT would mean that we can find the gospel of Jesus entirely in the OT, and I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
But nonetheless, by saying that this ONLY refers to the OT appears to either deny the inspiration of the Bible by God, or God's omniscience, because if God did indeed inspire the Bible, then God knew what scriptures were being referred to, including those both written at that time, and those yet to be written.
Did Timothy go into a trance when he wrote that? That conclusion is a HUGE leap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
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