Understanding Trinity had been a challenge for ages and now I have come to the conclusion that comprehension of Trinity surpasses human understanding. However my understanding about Trinty tells me the Jesus is the physical entity of Lord Almighty. Lord God is spirit and HE sends His spirit as Holy Spirit to assist us to grow more in Jesus.

I am struggling to make 2 plus 2 as 4, as we know that Jesus said many times about God as His Father. Then even God said about Jesus when Jesus was being baptised by John the Baptist, "You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”

Therefore how do I bring together Son of God attribute and physical manifestation of God for Jesus?

Im not quite understanding the question. You said 2 + 2 = 4 and there is no 4 in the trinity. There are only 3. How to reconcile Jesus is that as man he was devine from the beginning. That set him apart from man and also allowed him to inheirit the throne of god. The holy spirit is for the entity inside us all. The spark of god as he is our creator. Jesus came to this earth as devine and to live for the examples that he had preached. Therefore providing a conduit for our salvation. Something before we didn't have. Jesus sits at the right hand of the father and also is the commanding general in the end of times. His role as savior is an integral part of man and God relationships. The holy spirit is the deliverer. The conduit which knowlage and strength of spirit may pass. And God is above all else. And that is the trinity as I know it.

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It's incomprehensible for several reasons. For one thing, God is God and we're not; our creator is likely to be beyond our understanding. For another, we're finite beings, whereas the God described in the Bible isn't. The finite is going to have no end of trouble grasping the infinite.

We do know that the Father is called God, the Son is called God, and the Holy Spirit is called God. Yet there's one God. That's as far as I can go with it, but for me it's enough.

Hello Triund

It is incomprehensible because it is not true, simple as that.

It is simply a false teaching that used to be easy for people to accept because they were kept in the dark as to what the Bible said.

Now that we have access to the Bible without fear of being set on fire, religions have to try very hard to use philosophy to make the false teachings fir in with the Bible.

Trust God, Triund, and trust your own commonsense.

There is a Father and there is a Son and there is a Spirit and all are one in that they work together as one and are one as husband and wife are also one and even the apostles are one.

It is very easy to understand until you try and fit the pagan triune god into the equation

"pagan"??

Yes pagan, as in dating back to the city of Babylon where many false teachings and practices are common today, such as worshipping triads of gods.

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Originally Posted by califdadof3

Im not quite understanding the question. You said 2 + 2 = 4 and there is no 4 in the trinity. There are only 3. ....

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lol... lol... nice joke... And you know I used 2 + 2 = 4 as an analogy. Thanks for your input.

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Originally Posted by Moparbyfar

Yes pagan, as in dating back to the city of Babylon where many false teachings and practices are common today, such as worshipping triads of gods.

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You're joking, right?

dwashbur

I doubt he is joking. Part of the fun of being a Catholic is we can adopt pagan rituals and images, give them christyian names or meanings and hey presto they are now Christian symbols and rituals, no matter how much God used to detest the rituals or images or teachings.

That is one of the perks of being Catholic; we can do what we like.

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Originally Posted by dwashbur

You're joking, right?

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Hi Dwashbur,

It is actually true. The trinity as a coherent philosophical/religious idea was the synthesis of three Greek philosophical traditions (there were of course others of the time who contributed to the idea).

Plato and his theory of the forms was an important contributor for many reasons. He was probably the first identity theorist. Identity theory today is still important to the Trinity.

The Stoics talked about dynamic reason to explain how God exists. I think the term 'logos' is still sometimes used today when talking about Jesus/God.

Aristotle's contribution was also very significant, especially his idea of the unmoved mover.

Discovering the origins of a belief has nothing to do with the truth/falsity of that belief.

Regards

Tut

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Originally Posted by TUT317

Hi Dwashbur,

It is actually true. The trinity as a coherent philosophical/religious idea was the synthesis of three Greek philosophical traditions (there were of course others of the time who contributed to the idea).

Plato and his theory of the forms was an important contributor for many reasons. He was probably the first identity theorist. Identity theory today is still important to the Trinity.

The Stoics talked about dynamic reason to explain how God exists. I think the term 'logos' is still sometimes used today when talking about Jesus/God.

Aristotle's contribution was also very significant, especially his idea of the unmoved mover.

Discovering the origins of a belief has nothing to do with the truth/falsity of that belief.

Regards

Tut

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So let's get this straight. The early Israelites knew about this specific Babylonian myth but only adopted part of it, the part where there's one God and he empowers various people by means of his Spirit; from there, the early Christians, none of whom were particularly educated, managed to synthesize Platonian and Aristotelian philosophy, not to mention Seneca and the other stoics, in such a way that it somehow came out a triune God consisting of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Uh-huh. Sure.

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Originally Posted by dwashbur

So let's get this straight. The early Israelites knew about this specific Babylonian myth but only adopted part of it, the part where there's one God and he empowers various people by means of his Spirit; from there, the early Christians, none of whom were particularly educated, managed to synthesize Platonian and Aristotelian philosophy, not to mention Seneca and the other stoics, in such a way that it somehow came out a triune God consisting of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Uh-huh. Sure.

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Sorry D I probably mislead you with the post cut out. I should have been more selective. I really don't know much about Babylonian Gods and what knowledge, if any the early Israelites had of them.

If we are taking about this time then I guess this would have been at least 500 years before Plato. Prior to this there would have been no knowledge of any type of identity theory. Given this, any Babylonian myth would have nothing to do with the Trinity.


Regards

Tut

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Originally Posted by I Newton

dwashbur

I doubt he is joking. Part of the fun of being a Catholic is we can adopt pagan rituals and images, give them christyian names or meanings and hey presto they are now Christian symbols and rituals, no matter how much God used to detest the rituals or images or teachings.

That is one of the perks of being Catholic; we can do what we like.

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Newton;

I'm not laughing either.

This isn’t true; it seems to me that you’re mocking Catholics?

JoeT

Triund,
Try thinking about the trinity this way.
First of all Jesus is the incarnate WORD of God, The word of the Father and the Holy Spirit and therefore eternal as they are.
All three are separate persons in one being of God.
That's very similar to the way you are.
You and all of us are trinities made up of Body, Mind, and Spirit.
All three work together in different ways to make you who you are.
Each as its own functions but works together with the others.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Think of it any way you like Triund, as long as you can get your head around it you will be fine.

There are tons of philosophical discussions you can have to try and squeeze the Triune god into the Bible, but it does not make it so.

In a book with so many words in it it would be amazing if you could not squeeze any idea you like into many parts of it.

My spirit does not speak to my body and my soul does not go for a walk about without my body.

There is a father and a son and a spirit, all three are separate and all three are individual.

The Israelites never considered them to be one and the same and neither did Jesus or the apostles.

Hence the idea was not introduced to Christians for hundreds of years.

Think of it anyway you like Triund, that is the only way you will be able to come to terms with it.

Quote from a well known religious encyclopedia -
“The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”

Quote from The New Encyclopaedia Britannica -
“Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”

Hence the reason why this doctrine is so confusing... it is not a biblical teaching.

Jesus clearly taught that he was the Son of God, not God himself, inferior, not equal to his Father. (Matt 26:39; John 14:28; 1 Cor 15:27,28)
Even after his ascension to heaven, Jesus was seen by Stephen through holy spirit "standing at God's right hand". (Act 7:55,56) This reveals that Jesus did not become God again once in heaven but is a distinct individual to God himself.

That said, Satan is blinding the minds of the unbelievers (2 Cor 4:4), so the trinity doctrine will be here to stay until the end (Matt 24;14), then God will once and for all vindicate his holy name and right all the wrongs on earth, which includes eliminating all false doctrines. (Psa 145:20; Matt 6:9,10) Then there will definitely be no confusion!

*Takes deep breath and prepares for backlash*

There's a big difference between saying something wasn't codified in an official fashion until the fourth century, and saying it didn't exist until the fourth century. Jesus himself expounded the idea in the Great Commission when he told his followers to baptize in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit; Paul sets it out clearly in his benediction at the end of 2 Corinthians; Peter plainly says that lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God in Acts 5; Jesus claims to be God in John 10 - the Jews accuse him of just this and he doesn't contradict them - and the list goes on and on. Thomas calls Jesus "My Lord and My God" and Jesus doesn't correct him. Yes, the doctrine as a doctrine was codified in the fourth century, in response to the Arian controversy. But to try and say it didn't exist before that flies in the face of the evidence.

I have no problem in understanding The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. My understanding for That is very clear and simple. God, Jesus and Holy Spirit are one, can not fit into my finite understanding. May be as the time passes by Lord God would reveal what is the true picture and helps us understand the thing. The reason I was trying to understand it was sometimes people pose the question that if Jesus were God, then who was looking after the universe when Jesus was on the earth.

I am thankful to you all for inputs you give on my questions and doubts. I love this community where people come from different denominations and share their understanding on a topic. This makes a reader to know other perspectives too. This site is a big learning experience.

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Originally Posted by dwashbur

Jesus claims to be God in John 10 - the Jews accuse him of just this and he doesn't contradict them -

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I don't have the time today to mention all scriptures but singling this one out, John 10:30 - the comment Jesus makes "I and the Father are one" could lead some to think he meant "I and the Father are the same person" but if you look at John 17:21 Jesus prayed for his followers "That they all be one" then in vs 22 added "that they may be one even as we are one." He used the same Greek word (hen) for "one" in all these verses. Jesus disciples did not all become part of the trinity but rather a oneness in unity and purpose as are Jesus and his Father.

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Originally Posted by Moparbyfar

I don't have the time today to mention all scriptures but singling this one out, John 10:30 - the comment Jesus makes "I and the Father are one" could lead some to think he meant "I and the Father are the same person" but if you look at John 17:21 Jesus prayed for his followers "That they all be one" then in vs 22 added "that they may be one even as we are one." He used the same Greek word (hen) for "one" in all these verses. Jesus disciples did not all become part of the trinity but rather a oneness in unity and purpose as are Jesus and his Father.

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Cop-out. I specifically noted that the Jews accused Jesus of making himself God, and he didn't correct them. He also didn't correct Thomas when he called him "my God." The meaning of John 10:30 doesn't hinge on the word "one," which, just like the English word, can be used in myriad ways. It hinges on the context, and the context in both cases is clear.

Moparbyfar,
Very well said.
I pray that we all become one with God both here abd here after.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

>” the context in both cases is clear.”<
Mmm, so clear no Christian can understand it.

>” I specifically noted that the Jews accused Jesus of making himself God”<
Mmm, and you are happy to make the same mistake.

Did you ever wonder if it were wise to follow in the footsteps of the jews accusing Jesus of anything?

Not a very convincing argument to try and prove a teaching that is not in the Bible.

And Jesus had no need to correct Thomas, no one said Jesus is not a god. But the Bible does not say Jesus is God the son.
The Bible does not say Jesus is the Father.
The Bible does not say Jesus is the only true God.
The Bible does not say Jesus is greater than God.
The Bible does not say God can do nothing without Jesus.
The Bible does not say Jesus sent God.
The Bible does not say God obeys Jesus.
The Bible does not say God learned obedience.
The Bible does not say God is in subjection to Jesus.
The Bible does not say etc etc etc.

The Bible does mention the Father the son and the holy spirit; does the Bible mention Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Is this proof that they are now the same person?

The Bible has many sentences and out of the thousands of pages of writings, there are maybe a dozen passages that could be suggested to support such a silly idea.

You say it yourself, ‘the word “one” can be used in a myriad of ways’ and you prefer to use it as ‘proof’ that Jesus is in fact his own father.

>” I love this community where people come from different denominations and share their understanding on a topic”<
Ah, that is the difference.

This is a Catholic site and others may post their opinion as long as it does not stray too far from Catholicism or pose questions that Catholics cannot possibly answer.

[QUOTE/]...

This is a Catholic site and others may post their opinion as long as it does not stray too far from Catholicism or pose questions that Catholics cannot possibly answer.[/QUOTE]

I beg to differ from you on the ownership of this site.

This is for all the members of this site - If this is true that this site is for Catholics, then I apologies for not reading the fine print before joining this forum. Whereas iI always took this site as a platform where all brothers and sisters in Christ could come and support and help fellow-beings to grow in Christ. Never ever thought of being a Catholic or Protestant, being a Methodist or a Baptist flashe d across my mind. I always thought that people come to this platform after crossing over the boundaries of denominations. Please make me clear if this site has its foundation on denominations. God be with you all.

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Originally Posted by Triund

[QUOTE/].....

If this is true that this site is for Catholics, then I apologies for not reading the fine print before joining this forum. Whereas iI always took this site as a platform where all brothers and sisters in Christ could come and support and help fellow-beings to grow in Christ.

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And I missed the fine print where it said this site is a "platform where all brothers and sisters in Christ could come and support and help their fellow-beings to grow in Christ".

This site is not a place to proselytize, it is a Q&A site that has no religious test in order to ask or reply to questions.

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Originally Posted by I Newton

>” the context in both cases is clear.”<
Mmm, so clear no Christian can understand it.

>” I specifically noted that the Jews accused Jesus of making himself God”<
Mmm, and you are happy to make the same mistake.

Did you ever wonder if it were wise to follow in the footsteps of the jews accusing Jesus of anything?

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Since you decline to address the rest of my comment, I won't bother repeating it. Most everyone should be able to see that you're dodging the real issue in that passage, so I'm going to leave it at that.

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Not a very convincing argument to try and prove a teaching that is not in the Bible.

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Circular reasoning. Whether it's in the Bible or not is the question.

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And Jesus had no need to correct Thomas, no one said Jesus is not a god.

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I have no idea what "a god" means. How many gods do you have? The Bible says there's one, and he exists in a triune form.

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But the Bible does not say Jesus is God the son.
The Bible does not say Jesus is the Father.
The Bible does not say Jesus is the only true God.
The Bible does not say Jesus is greater than God.
The Bible does not say God can do nothing without Jesus.
The Bible does not say Jesus sent God.
The Bible does not say God obeys Jesus.
The Bible does not say God learned obedience.
The Bible does not say God is in subjection to Jesus.
The Bible does not say etc etc etc.

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More cop-outs. Nobody has ever claimed any of this. Nobody has ever claimed there isn't order within the trinity, that each of the persons of the trinity doesn't have different functions. But that's very different than saying they're three distinct beings. Again I have to ask how many gods you have. If you have more than one, you can't claim to be a Christian.

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The Bible does mention the Father the son and the holy spirit; does the Bible mention Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Is this proof that they are now the same person?

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Wow. That's desperation to the nth degree. This is so far beyond lame I can't even come up with a word for it, and I know 9 languages.

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The Bible has many sentences and out of the thousands of pages of writings, there are maybe a dozen passages that could be suggested to support such a silly idea.

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I stand corrected. This is even more lame. "there are maybe a dozen passages" that mention a lot of things. Exactly how desperate are you?

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You say it yourself, ‘the word “one” can be used in a myriad of ways’ and you prefer to use it as ‘proof’ that Jesus is in fact his own father.

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Once again, you're dodging what I actually wrote. Until you address it all, we have nothing to talk about. And the idea that I somehow am trying to say "Jesus is in fact his own father" is such a gross misrepresentation I won't even bother. It just shows how weak your arguments are that you have to resort to such twisting of people's words, even when you know it's false twisting.

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>” I love this community where people come from different denominations and share their understanding on a topic”<
Ah, that is the difference.

This is a Catholic site and others may post their opinion as long as it does not stray too far from Catholicism or pose questions that Catholics cannot possibly answer.

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Oh, this is too much. Hey, WG, Classyt, Joe, and all the rest of you folks, did you know we're actually Catholics?? So now the desperation descends into sniping, name-calling and guilt by apparent association. I think we're done here.

This is definitely not a Catholic site although some of the mods are, leading some to assume that their opinions may be overlooked or "over ruled" but generally speaking no matter what denomination we are, we all have a say. Respect SHOULD go a long way here guys.

Revelation 19:13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.
The name of the Son of God is the Word and He was in the beginning with God and He was God.
In the beginning was the Son of God and the Son of God was with God and the Son of God was God. Don't make it complicated because it is not. God's Son could not be anything less than God Himself because God said that everything reproduces to its own kind and that is good.So if a human being gives birth to another human being and a cat gives birth to another cat, then God gives birth to another God.
Do we then have two Gods?Absolutely not because it is written about two persons
Genesis 2:24...and they shall become one flesh. although being two different persons.It is not the number of personalities that matters but the unification of our will that makes us one.
After all the word used in Hebrew for one is echad which means a united one.
There is no Triune God as many today believe. There is only one true God who sometime before time was created gave birth to another being, His Son the Word and God's Son cannot be anything less than God Himself. No, the Son is not the Father and the Father is not the Son.This is why He gave us families so that we could understand how He acts.Am I my son?No I am not although we are both human beings, but I gave birth to him and that makes me greater than him because he came out of me and he obeys me.
The devil know the connection between the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit and that's why he always uses three different evil personalities even to the very end as written in Revelation.
This is the statement of the Greek Orthodox faith which I find very accurate...
I Believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, And of all things visible and invisible :


And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, Begotten of the Father before all centuries, Light out of Light, Very God out of Very God, Begotten, non made, Being of one substance with the Father, By whom all things were made : Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and the Virgin Mary, And was made man, And was crusified also for us under Pontius Pilate.

He suffered and was buried, And the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, And ascended into heaven, And sitteth on the right hand of the father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the living and the dead : Whose kingdom shall have no end.


And in the Holy Ghost, The Lord and giver of life, Who proceedeth from the Father, Who spoke by the Prophets.


And in one Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one Baprtism for the remission of sins. And I look for the Resurrection of the dead, And the life of the world to come. Amen.

adam7gur,
Yes very good the word of God is eternal just like the Father and Holy Spirit.
Peace and kindness.
Fred

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Originally Posted by dwashbur

Oh, this is too much. Hey, WG, Classyt, Joe, and all the rest of you folks, did you know we're actually Catholics????????? So now the desperation descends into sniping, name-calling and guilt by apparent association. I think we're done here.

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Didn't I tell you I was a closet Catholic?. My bad guys. (grumpy JoeT and Fred... don't leave the faith just yet.. I was only kidding.) I'm still the pretrib rapture believer, dispensationalist, fundementalist I've always been... :D) I have just learned to respect ALL those who own the name of the LORD Jesus Christ as their Savior and GOD.

The trouble "I Newton" has is he is anti catholic, does not view them as Christians and does most of his posts with Anti catholic themes if not outright hatred toward them.

This is not allowed as it would against Methodist, Lutherans, Mormons or anyone else that has equal rights to their faith on our boards.

He has not learned to discuss issues without name calling or avoiding the issues.

He has been officially warned and wants to attack rather than follow the rules.

He can not attack Catholics on this the Christian board any more than a person can attack Muslims on the Islamic board.

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Originally Posted by classyT

I'm still the pretrib rapture believer, dispensationalist, fundementalist I've always been....

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And I'm the liberal former evangelical Missouri-Synod Lutheran preacher's kid/school teacher who wasn't allowed to date any of the cute Catholic boys in high school and who is still trying to figure out what the Catholics believe and why.

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Originally Posted by Moparbyfar

This is definitely not a Catholic site although some of the mods are

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Not to worry. I'm keeping my Protestant eye on them.

classyT,
In this case we are in the same class.
That is...
A friend of Jesus is a friend of mine.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Adam,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by adam7gur

[snip]
There is no Triune God as many today believe. There is only one true God who sometime before time was created gave birth to another being, His Son the Word and God's Son cannot be anything less than God Himself.

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I don't think I've ever heard this idea before; to the best of my knowledge the common belief has always been that the one God, in three persons, is eternal in his triune nature. I'm not familiar with the proposition that the Father gave birth to the Son in this manner. Can you expand on your comments a little? This is interesting.

[snip]

dwashbur,
I believe that several denominations do not believe in the Trinity.
I'll wait until adam7gur answers to see what he has to say.
Of the 30,000 different denominations you can imagine what so of the belief might be.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

dwashbur,
I believe that several denominations do not believe in the Trinity.
I'll wait until adam7gur answers to see what he has to say.
Of the 30,000 different denominations you can imagine what so of the belief might be.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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I'm aware that some denominations don't. What I haven't heard before is the suggestion that the Father gave birth to the Son.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dwashbur

Adam,



I don't think I've ever heard this idea before; to the best of my knowledge the common belief has always been that the one God, in three persons, is eternal in his triune nature. I'm not familiar with the proposition that the Father gave birth to the Son in this manner. Can you expand on your comments a little? This is interesting.

[snip]

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Let me ask this! When was the Son of God born? No doubt God has a Son and if He has a Son then at some point the Son was born somehow. When was that?
It is written that the name of the Son is the Word and it is written that in the beginning was the Word, so what is this beginning? It is simply the beginning of everything and in that beginning was the Word, so God's Son was born before the beginning of everything as it is written that everything was made by the Word and for the Word and nothing that is made is made without the Word. So God's Son, the Word was born before time was created because the Word created time and that makes the Word, God's only begotten,out of time, eternal.
I do not agree with the concept of all persons coexisting.I believe that there was a time before time when God was all alone when there was nothing else but Him.He was alone and silent, this source of Life was alone and silent and at one point He spoke, His voice was heard and the Word was born. Why did God name His Son the Word? Why not something else like the Power? Because His Son is the actual manifestation of God speaking.Imagine this never ending source of Life exploding from within and sparkling Life through His Word. He spoke and His Son,the Word was born.
This explains why the Son says that the Father is greater than Him and this is not a statement that comes out of respect, this is the actual truth. The Son could never be without the Father, but the Father was before the Son.
Even in nature a son comes after the father even though the son is being kept in the father's bosom through his sperm that gives life.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dwashbur

I'm aware that some denominations don't. What I haven't heard before is the suggestion that the Father gave birth to the Son.

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What is the one thing that makes someone a father or a son if not the fact that the first gave birth to the second?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by adam7gur

What is the one thing that makes someone a father or a son if not the fact that the first gave birth to the second?

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Did your father give birth to you?