A discussion called "IS the 'Church' the same as the 'Roman Catholic Church'?" was quite abruptly terminated which I feel is unfair and the discussion remains incomplete. So does the 'Church' mentioned in the Bible refer to the RCC.
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A discussion called "IS the 'Church' the same as the 'Roman Catholic Church'?" was quite abruptly terminated which I feel is unfair and the discussion remains incomplete. So does the 'Church' mentioned in the Bible refer to the RCC.
Yes, the word 'Church' mentioned in the Bible refers to what is called the 'Catholic' today. The word Church means a single building, the body of faithful, as well as a universal 'Church'. All these meanings are clearly implied in Scripture. The universal Church referred to in Scripture is the infant pilgrim Roman Catholic Church.
I'll go a step further; those same Holy Scriptures referenced are a special case of Holy Tradition (the word of mouth teachings of the Apostles – fulfilling Christ's commission to baptize and teach God's Kingdom (Cf. Matt 28:17 sqq .) which is the Roman Catholic Church. Had she not been faithful to Christ's commission to teach, you wouldn't have a bible today.
Many don't like it, but it's that simple.
JoeT
The Church started in the Bible is not the same as the RCC today. The RCC has absorbed a lot from the cultures it has come into contact with. It's structure is a reflection of the Roman state of the fourth century, not the culture of first century Judea or Antioch. Jesus Christ obviously didn't intend there should be a hierarchical structure that is why he had 12 apostles and he rebuked the apostles when he was asked who was the greatest or leader. Jesus Christ is the leader of the Church, the head of every man.Quote:
Originally Posted by inhisservice
Just saying it doesn't make it so but the RCC would have us believe it is the premier expression of Christian thought, infalliable in its view. If you want to study this subject read the book Pagan Christianity
Joe you know very well a Biblical Church is not a building but a group of people so stop with the false teaching. I have never heard of the infant pilgrim roman catholic church and it certainly isn't mentioned in Scripture so it must be a figment of your imagination.
As to tradition remember Jesus said it is by your traditions you nullify the word of God and that wasn't an instruction as to how to do so. This thread is obviously as screwed up as the last one
The church mentioned in the bible has to do with people who are true worshipers of the Lord. People who worship in Spirit and in Truth. The dialogue between Jesus and the Samaritan woman is very helpful in my opinion. So to me it is not about the RCC or any other denomination. It is about true worshipers, it is about people, it is about living stones. Remember hoe Solomon's Temple was built. It was not built in one place.Parts of the Temple were made in different places by different people and when time came, those parts were brought to Jerusalem and the pieces were joined together without a hammers sound being heard, and the Temple of the Lord was ready!
Today the parts of the Living Temple of God are being prepared in many different places/denominations... We the living stones will be called to present ourselves so that the Living Temple of the Lord, the Church, the ekklesia, shall be completed and the glory of the Lord shall dwell inside us!
Then what does it refer to? How did your Church come to be from 2,000 years ago?Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
How does the custom or culture of ‘Church’ affect the Truth a Church holds? Just so you don’t get confused, I make a distinction between Apostolic Tradition and customs/culture.Quote:
the RCC has absorbed a lot from the cultures it has come into contact with. It's structure is a reflection of the Roman state of the fourth century, not the culture of first century Judea or Antioch.
So he rebuked the Apostles? What distinction does this make? Teachers ‘rebuke’ their students all the time, how else do they lean?Quote:
Jesus Christ obviously didn't intend there should be a hierarchical structure that is why he had 12 apostles and he rebuked the apostles when he was asked who was the greatest or leader. Jesus Christ is the leader of the Church, the head of every man.
In matters of faith and morals, yes I would have you believe that it is ‘the premier expression’ of Christian Truth and infallible in its teachings.Quote:
Just saying it doesn't make it so but the RCC would have us believe it is the premier expression of Christian thought, infallible in its view.
JoeT
Is it a figment of my imagination? Why is it still here after 2,000 years?Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
How then do we read scripture that says that we are to keep the traditions of the Apostles? “Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle. “(2 Thes 2:15)Quote:
As to tradition remember Jesus said it is by your traditions you nullify the word of God and that wasn't an instruction as to how to do so. This thread is obviously as screwed up as the last one
Yes, by all means, keep the word of God, every letter of it. Hold fast the ‘traditions’ you have learned from the Apostles, which is what the Magisterium of the Catholic Church does.
JoeT
In your estimation, does the Catholic Church fit your definition, why or why not?Quote:
Originally Posted by adam7gur
How many 'true' Churches are there? How do you know which is 'true' and which isn't? Or is all truth relative. That is to say, is your truth is as good as another truth? But, God's truth is absolute, it is the Will of God, so how do you support your answer and yet still see God's truth?Quote:
The dialogue between Jesus and the Samaritan woman is very helpful in my opinion. So to me it is not about the RCC or any other denomination. It is about true worshipers, it is about people, it is about living stones.
Am I to understand that you think 'Church' is a quiet place?Quote:
Remember hoe Solomon's Temple was built. It was not built in one place. Parts of the Temple were made in different places by different people and when time came, those parts were brought to Jerusalem and the pieces were joined together without a hammers sound being heard, and the Temple of the Lord was ready!
Quote:
Today the parts of the Living Temple of God are being prepared in many different places/denominations... We the living stones will be called to present ourselves so that the Living Temple of the Lord, the Church, the ekklesia, shall be completed and the glory of the Lord shall dwell inside us!
I don't understand how does this fit with the OP.
JoeT
I think that is the point Joe you don't understand that what is important is our relationship with Jesus, not which door we walk in. People who have to reassure others they are in the true church have missed the point. There is no perfect churchQuote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
It doesn't matter which Church we walk into? Do you mean to imply that one Church is as good as another? Then we can say the Catholic Church is in every way, at the very least, 'equal' to your Church?Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
No one except you and Fred have even made that sort of outlandish claims. So what is your point?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
As long as a church teaches the complete word of God as found in the Bible then YES they are as good as your beloved RCC.
That is the whole point. The RCC was NOT nor has it EVER been the one and only church. You cannot prove that the RCC was started any earlier than what 3-400 AD? That is more than 300 years after Christs crucifixion and long after Peter and the rest of the disciples deaths at the hands of who? THE ROMAN'S! Is that not the first case of how your religious originators treated people who did not follow their beliefs? Let's face the facts and move on. YOU HAVE NO PROOF that the RCC is the first or only true religion. I will admit that it is likely one of the oldest established religion on earth today following Christs teachings. However you are attempting to skew it into the realm of cult status with your outlandish claims. I for one am really sick and tired of your lies and half truth's and getting away with it. It is apparent to everyone that you and Fred are protected by the moderators. That is one of the reasons that there are not many true Christians left on the board. The moderators have banned many and others like me have simply given up and quit. No matter how much we complain about the insults you have hurled at us recently nothing happens. Wonder why?
I really doubt that this post will stay up for long as the truth hurts some people too much but since this is probably my last comments****
There was only one and only one Church prefigured in prophecy. If one was needing 'proof,' this alone should be convincing. We don't just have the empty air of words, we have a prophecy realized in Christ. Constituted by Christ, organized by the Apostles as a Divine and perfect society, one which is necessary as a means of salvation, a church that is visible to the world with both jurisdiction and principle authority, a Church with a universal Magisterium, and one commissioned by Christ is the One True Church of the Messiah.
This is why we say; "Christ “established here on earth” only one Church and instituted it as a “visible and spiritual community”, that from its beginning and throughout the centuries has always existed and will always exist, and in which alone are found all the elements that Christ himself instituted. “This one Church of Christ, which we confess in the Creed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic […]. This Church, constituted and organized in this world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the successor of Peter and the Bishops in communion with him”. (Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church, William Cardinal Levada, July 2007.)
In the Old Testament prophecy there is a conjoined and parallel prophecy of the Messiah and Christ's Kingdom, the Kingdom of God; the Catholic Church. This prophecy cannot be separated from Christ. To do so denies His prophetic Messianic mission. Divine Prophecy foreshadows Christ establishment of a Kingdom which will reign over the world regenerating Israel. This prophecy requires Christ's personal presence bestowing a the keys to new Church with a specific sacrificial system in his role as Messiah (Psalm 109:4). Its tenets will be based on Divine revelation as her high priest (Isaiah 66:18; Jeremiah 33:20). And her government will originate from the Messiah as its prophet (Malachi 1:11). According to prophecy the new Church will be supernaturally revealed by Christ.
The prophetic image in the Old Testament is that the Messianic Kingdom will be universal; not only for the twelve Hebrew Tribes but also for the Gentiles. Allegiance will be given to the Son of David. (Cf. Psalm 21:28 sq.; 2:7-12; 116:1; Zechariah 9:10) "It shall come to pass in the last days (i.e. in the Messianic Era) . . . that many nations shall say: Come and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways and we will walk in his paths; for the law shall go forth out of Sion, and the word of the Lord out of Jerusalem" (Micah 4:1-2; cf. Isaiah 2:2; Zechariah 8:3). In addition the prophecies for the new Church include a unity of worship, “And it shall come to pass in that day, that living waters [the Gospels] shall go out from Jerusalem: half of them to the east sea, and half of them to the last sea: they shall be in summer and in winter. And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day there shall be one Lord, and his name shall be one.” (Zechariah 14:8) And I've presented her the very same Scripture that Paul, no doubt, read throughout the Mediterranean to doubting Jewish communities; it contains the same certitude as the prophecy of the Messiah. Do we ignore it for our own subjective 'Church'?
If I can show from Old Testament Scriptures how the One and only One True Church is foretold as being the established here on earth, then how does the claim that a plethora of Churches constitute ONE CHURCH, ONE FAITH, ONE SPIRIT IN CHRIST? Or how does the claim of One Man equals One Church find any validity?
The prophets of the Old Testament were told of a New Kingdom, a New Covent, to be consecrated by Christ for the salvation of the faithful with a particular sacrificial system having an authority emanating from the Messiah. Failing this understanding fails to see Christ's prophetic role as the Messiah therein denying God's revelation. The point is that it is this Church that was consecrated by the Divine to be Holy.
There is but One True Church of Jesus Christ.
JoeT
Joe you didn't listen to what I said so I'll say it again in a different way. It doesn't matter which door you walk into, what matters is whether you know the owner of the house. It isn't a question of churches being equal, it is a question of personal relationship with Jesus Christ. If you don't have that, no amount of being in a church will do anything for you, irrespective of which church it is. We are not saved by our church affiliation but by our acknowledgement of Jesus Christ. So for me I am not concerned about whether the church I attend is the "true" church since all churches are of the view they are the true church or at least part of it. What I must be concerned about is I am faithfull to the teachings of Jesus Christ and that is concerned with how I relate to God and treat othersQuote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
You’re absolutely right; before you enter a house you should know the owner is Christ. That’s why I’m Catholic. All other houses are under different management.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
JoeT
Various events over the years might lead me to suggest your claim is invalid and, in fact, the RCC is under different management, and your suggestion that other Christian churches are not under the management of Christ is offensive and certainly incorrect. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, Joe, unless it is at pedophile priests and clergyQuote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
I wouldn't suggest throwing stones, paraclete. Unless it is at a pedophile Evangelist minister, 'otherbrand' ministers, preachers, etc. - better judgment prevents me from posting a few links - but maybe you would be wise to look around a bit to see just how transparent and brittle the glass is in your house. You might surprise yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
JoeT
The True Church is the one in the hearts of believers. Only God knows exactly who those believers are. Their identity is going to surprise us. Membership in a particular church or no membership in a church has nothing to do with membership in the True Church.
adam7gur
Good point man. Keep it up. God Bless you.
Unless your "Church" would immediately remove a senior pastor from office and cancel their credentials at the accusation of improprietary you have no case to put here. That is the standard used in the Church I attend. I don't suggest that it is not possible for anyone to fall, but should they do so, not protected but out on their ear. So much for those who bring the Church into disrepute. That was a foul ball, next ball, shall we do the Crusades or the Inquisition or perhaps a jewish pogrom or two?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
JoeT777
You are still just repeating what you have said. How do you know that the "one and only true Church prophesied" is the RCC? You are evading this question from the beginning.Quote:
There was only one and only one Church prefigured in prophecy. If one was needing ‘proof,’ this alone should be convincing.
There is no prophesy claiming the true Church to be the RC. That is lie number one. The Apostles did not establish the RC and that is lie number two. If you don't want your claims to be called a lie then back it up with evidence from scripture.Quote:
We don’t just have the empty air of words, we have a prophecy realized in Christ. Constituted by Christ, organized by the Apostles as a Divine and perfect society, one which is necessary as a means of salvation, a church that is visible to the world with both jurisdiction and principle authority, a Church with a universal Magisterium, and one commissioned by Christ is the One True Church of the Messiah.
Quote the Bible friend. Let's have some quotes from the word of God.Quote:
This is why we say; "Christ “established here on earth” only one Church and instituted it as a “visible and spiritual community”, that from its beginning and throughout the centuries has always existed and will always exist, and in which alone are found all the elements that Christ himself instituted. “This one Church of Christ, which we confess in the Creed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic […]. This Church, constituted and organized in this world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the successor of Peter and the Bishops in communion with him”.
There is that empty claim again.Quote:
In the Old Testament prophecy there is a conjoined and parallel prophecy of the Messiah and Christ's Kingdom, the Kingdom of God; the Catholic Church.
This is everything about the new Church. Nothing in here to support that the "new Church" is the RC.Quote:
This prophecy cannot be separated from Christ. To do so denies His prophetic Messianic mission. Divine Prophecy foreshadows Christ establishment of a Kingdom which will reign over the world regenerating Israel. This prophecy requires Christ’s personal presence bestowing a the keys to new Church with a specific sacrificial system in his role as Messiah (Psalm 109:4). Its tenets will be based on Divine revelation as her high priest (Isaiah 66:18; Jeremiah 33:20). And her government will originate from the Messiah as its prophet (Malachi 1:11). According to prophecy the new Church will be supernaturally revealed by Christ.
In this paragraph too as the previous one no support.Quote:
"The prophetic image in the Old Testament is that....Do we ignore it for our own subjective ‘Church’? "
You just do not understand that a Church does not refer to a denomination but a group of believers. You do not seem to understand the meaning of the word "Church".Quote:
If I can show from Old Testament Scriptures how the One and only One True Church is foretold as being the established here on earth, then how does the claim that a plethora of Churches constitute ONE CHURCH, ONE FAITH, ONE SPIRIT IN CHRIST? Or how does the claim of One Man equals One Church find any validity?
True but is that one true Church of Jesus Christ the RC? That is what you have failed to answer.Quote:
The prophets of the Old Testament were told of a New Kingdom, a New Covent, to be consecrated by Christ for the salvation of the faithful with a particular sacrificial system having an authority emanating from the Messiah. Failing this understanding fails to see Christ’s prophetic role as the Messiah therein denying God’s revelation. The point is that it is this Church that was consecrated by the Divine to be Holy.
There is but One True Church of Jesus Christ.
I could say that the RC is the one that has a different management. You are the one who is making this kind of insulting statements and not any of us. If you don't stop such kind of talk then the moderators will terminate this post also.Quote:
You’re absolutely right; before you enter a house you should know the owner is Christ. That’s why I’m Catholic. All other houses are under different management.
Some of the difficulty lies with the RCC belief that Jesus made Peter the first pope... "and upon this rock...," when, in fact, Jesus was referring to HIMSELF, not Peter, as the rock upon which the Church would be built.
Another difficulty is with the word "catholic" which means universal and does NOT refer specifically to the Roman CATHOLIC Church when it is used in the creeds.
Still another difficulty is that the only known Christian church, the early church spoken of in The Acts, developed into the RCC which claims to have preserved the catholic ("universal") tradition as handed down through the Early Church Fathers. (The word "Roman" in the title is there because of the central position attributed to the See of Rome ruling over the entire church body.)
Joe is obviously brainwashed I was brought up to believe all this true church rubbish too but I learned something different about Christ. What Joe doesn't know is that God speaks to Christians outside the RCC, why would he do that if the RCC were the only true church? Joe needs to realise that the RCC diverted from the path a long time ago, around about the time it became the Roman state religion, and needs to be restored. Luther began the task a thousand years later, but they chucked him out, others have tried but are yet to succeed.
The RCC has tried to make the Church some sort of exclusive club but the Holy Spirit won't be put in a box, he keeps breaking out, and that happens outside the RCC as well.
It used to be when the train pulled into town the people would scramble to get on as quickly as possible. Once the conductor hollered out “All ABOARD!“ there were only seconds before the train left the station. Once the train pulled away the only way to get to your destination was to walk. And that could be dangerous. The same holds true in regard to Church, Peter, our conductor has shouted out – listen:Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
But Peter standing up with the eleven told faithful that had gathered “Therefore let all the house of Israel know most certainly that God has made both Lord and Christ, this same Jesus, whom you have crucified.” (Acts 2:36)
The significance relating to the 'Kingdom of God' (that is the Church) should be apparent. If you were a Jew standing in the crowd you'd know exactly what it meant. Most know it, but just in case, the etymology of the word 'Christ' is as much a title as it is a name, in fact it was considered even more so a title in the earlier days of the Church. Christ is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew Messias or 'the anointed one.' There is no need to explain that the Messiah is to be the Deliverer of the Jews, bringing with him 'His Kingdom'. It's Peter's pronouncement that is important; it 'fingers' Jesus as being the Christ, the Messiah. Peter's announcement was meant to remove any doubt to the faithful. That is as St. John the Baptist pronounced, “The time is accomplished and the kingdom of God is at hand.” (Mark 1:14) and that Jesus stated that he was greater than Solomon– and there was no greater king in Judaism. (Cf. Luke 11:31). Jesus selected and appointed the Twelve and gave them and only the Twelve the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt 13:11). At Cæsarea Philippi Jesus commissioned and established an office in the person of Peter, declared he would build a Church, promised to increase and protect that Church (Matthew 16:15 sqq.) Then he commissioned his Church, “Going therefore, teach all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.” (Matthew 28:19)
Peter's announcement to the Jewish followers of Christ was the pronouncement that the Kingdom HAS ARRIVED, is LIVING, and will flourish in the protection of the Holy Spirit: ALL ABOARD!
You do know that the intellect reasons in the soul. It's to the soul that we look to see if the wisdom is good or if the wisdom is evil. It's here that washing occurs. So, paraclete might be right, at least in a perverse sense, there is a 'brainwashing.' The reality though is contextually much different; I would call it a 'soulwashing'. You see it's only in the Roman Catholic Church is there a cleansing, a washing of the soul, allowing a Divine Wisdom to flourish.
JoeT
Good grief! So there'll be only RCC members in heaven? Oh, right. I get it. The rest of us will be in purgatory, repenting of our sin of being belonging to the wrong church. Isn't that fundamentalism? "I'm right, and you're not!"Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
See: https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christ...ml#post2265288Quote:
Originally Posted by inhisservice
See: https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christ...ml#post2265288Quote:
There is no prophesy claiming the true Church to be the RC. That is lie number one. The Apostles did not establish the RC and that is lie number two. If you don't want your claims to be called a lie then back it up with evidence from scripture.
I don’t worship a book; I’ll quote whoever I please.Quote:
This is why we say; "Christ “established here on earth” only one Church and instituted it as a “visible and spiritual community”, that from its beginning and throughout the centuries has always existed and will always exist, and in which alone are found all the elements that Christ himself instituted. “This one Church of Christ, which we confess in the Creed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic […]. This Church, constituted and organized in this world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the successor of Peter and the Bishops in communion with him”.
Quote:
Quote the Bible friend. Let's have some quotes from the word of God.
All that’s been seen thus far from the book-only crowd is empty air. You might want to show, using biblical verse – your rules, just who what and where the Church is. Have you noticed, that I have been the only one that has offered ‘Scriptural’ proof thus far – is there some sort of problem?Quote:
In the Old Testament prophecy there is a conjoined and parallel prophecy of the Messiah and Christ's Kingdom, the Kingdom of God; the Catholic Church.
Quote:
There is that empty claim again.
The only Church that existed from the time of Christ’s ascension till 1520, till now the only True Church, has been the Catholic Church.Quote:
This prophecy cannot be separated from Christ. To do so denies His prophetic Messianic mission. Divine Prophecy foreshadows Christ establishment of a Kingdom which will reign over the world regenerating Israel. This prophecy requires Christ’s personal presence bestowing a the keys to new Church with a specific sacrificial system in his role as Messiah (Psalm 109:4). Its tenets will be based on Divine revelation as her high priest (Isaiah 66:18; Jeremiah 33:20). And her government will originate from the Messiah as its prophet (Malachi 1:11). According to prophecy the new Church will be supernaturally revealed by Christ.
Quote:
This is everything about the new Church. Nothing in here to support that the "new Church" is the RC.
There was no other Church that was commissioned by Christ. If there was, show it in the Scriptures. Can you show scripturally where your Church came from? How did it get from 2,000 years ago till today?Quote:
If I can show from Old Testament Scriptures how the One and only One True Church is foretold as being the established here on earth, then how does the claim that a plethora of Churches constitute ONE CHURCH, ONE FAITH, ONE SPIRIT IN CHRIST? Or how does the claim of One Man equals One Church find any validity?
Quote:
You just do not understand that a Church does not refer to a denomination but a group of believers. You do not seem to understand the meaning of the word "Church".
How is it not? Let’s see there was only one Church in Rome, it was the same Church in 0 A.D. as it is today; how then is it not the Roman Catholic Church?Quote:
The prophets of the Old Testament were told of a New Kingdom, a New Covent, to be consecrated by Christ for the salvation of the faithful with a particular sacrificial system having an authority emanating from the Messiah. Failing this understanding fails to see Christ’s prophetic role as the Messiah therein denying God’s revelation. The point is that it is this Church that was consecrated by the Divine to be Holy.
There is but One True Church of Jesus Christ
Quote:
True but is that one true Church of Jesus Christ the RC? That is what you have failed to answer.
Insulting, how so? Can you point to a single statement that wasn’t in accord with the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church or Scripture? Thus far, I'm the only one that has provided meaningful verse; have you, has anybody else?Quote:
You’re absolutely right; before you enter a house you should know the owner is Christ. That’s why I’m Catholic. All other houses are under different management.
Quote:
I could say that the RC is the one that has a different management. You are the one who is making this kind of insulting statements and not any of us. If you don't stop such kind of talk then the moderators will terminate this post also.
JoeT
Interesting idea; but I didn’t mention 'sin,' 'heaven', 'hell' or 'purgatory.' My reference was to 'Wisdom;' not knowledge, but the knowhow to knowhow, i.e. wisdom. Also, note that there has been no condemnation in any of my statements.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
JoeT
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
This doesn't count?Quote:
It doesn't matter which Church we walk into? Do you mean to imply that one Church is as good as another? Then we can say the Catholic Church is in every way, at the very least, 'equal' to your Church?
Then I will quote Luther with as much authority.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
I have more than once in other similar threads. In this one, you stepped right over it.Quote:
All that's been seen thus far from the book-only crowd is empty air. You might want to show, using biblical verse – your rules, just who what and where the Church is. Have you noticed, that I have been the only one that has offered 'Scriptural' proof thus far – is there some sort of problem?
In 0 A.D. Hmmmm. Now you're really reaching.Quote:
How is it not? Let's see there was only one Church in Rome, it was the same Church in 0 A.D. as it is today; how then is it not the Roman Catholic Church?
No, it doesn’t count. It’s not a condemnation. If you see it that way, you’ll need to explain how because I don't see it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
JoeT
So then if you can't "prove" what you say from the Bible you will prove it from another sourceQuote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
I'm sure those in orthadox churches would be interested to debate this ideaQuote:
The only Church that existed from the time of Christ's ascension till 1520, till now the only True Church, has been the Catholic Church.
In your rush to prove your argument you have got a little carried away Joe. There was only paganism in Rome in 0 AD. Are you implying that the RCC is a pagan expression of Christianity?This may be closer to the truth than you know.Quote:
How is it not? Let's see there was only one Church in Rome, it was the same Church in 0 A.D. as it is today; how then is it not the Roman Catholic Church?
JoeT
Joe to get away from all this emotive nonsense and get back to facts. Have you read the Books written by Peter? Nowhere in these books does he tell us that he is called to lead the Church. He is at great pains to contend with us to believe in Christ and not the fabricated doctrines of men. Nowhere does he talk about this great collective, the Church, in fact, I think he makes it plain that there are Christians in various places who are not connected by a common leadership other than the Holy Spirit..
Ok, that'll be fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Most of the time, it is the Evangelist or the Protestant (non-Catholics) who complain that Catholics don't use verse to support their position; that we quote doctrine or other Catholics. This time I did both, I explained my view what a 'Church' is and used verse to support it. So, now we should not quote the Bible?Quote:
I have more than once in other similar threads. In this one, you stepped right over it.
In which of your posts, 28,27,24,21, and 17 did you quote scripture? Among indignations you happened to mentioned Acts – was that meant to be significant?
Technically, you might say that. I think most peg the birth date of Christ between 6 B.C and 6 A.D. The authors I'm familiar with would suggest 5-6 B.C.Quote:
In 0 A.D. Hmmmm. Now you're really reaching.
JoeT
Luther certain has as much authority as the guys you quoted.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
The one in which I quoted Jesus.Quote:
In which of your posts, 28,27,24,21, and 17 did you quote scripture? Among indignations you happened to mentioned Acts – was that meant to be significant?
I don't believe the statement was made in relationship to making proof. My point was that I'm not restricted to 'bible-only'. You maybe, inhisservice maybe are restricted to bible-only but I'm not. But, to think of it, I haven't seen much more than complaints, at least little verse to prove or show any other Church.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
I'm sure.Quote:
I'm sure those in Orthodox churches would be interested to debate this idea
Talk about 'emotive nonsense.'Quote:
In your rush to prove your argument you have got a little carried away Joe. There was only paganism in Rome in 0 AD. Are you implying that the RCC is a pagan expression of Christianity? This may be closer to the truth than you know.
Why would Peter be worried about the fabrication of doctrine if there was no Church to recognize a doctrine? If each congregation was free to believe as they willed, how or why would Peter be concerned with doctrine at all? Why would Peter expect anybody to listen to him if he didn't think he had the authority to write? These letters (among others) are called 'Catholic' because they are not addressed to a single congregation, but to the corporate Church. If no corporate Church existed who would he be writing to? If it were a friend or associate, it would be addressed to Peter's friend, wouldn't it?Quote:
Joe to get away from all this emotive nonsense and get back to facts. Have you read the Books written by Peter? Nowhere in these books does he tell us that he is called to lead the Church. He is at great pains to contend with us to believe in Christ and not the fabricated doctrines of men. Nowhere does he talk about this great collective, the Church, in fact, I think he makes it plain that there are Christians in various places who are not connected by a common leadership other than the Holy Spirit..
But, let's look at 1st, 2nd, and 3rd century writers who knew and studied under the contemporaries of Peter.
Clement of Alexandria: "[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly gasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? 'Behold, we have left all and have followed you' [Matt. 19:27; Mark 10:28]" (Who Is the Rich Man That Is Saved? 21:3–5 [A.D. 200]).
Tertullian: "For though you think that heaven is still shut up, remember that the Lord left the keys of it to Peter here, and through him to the Church, which keys everyone will carry with him if he has been questioned and made a confession [of faith]" (Antidote Against the Scorpion 10 [A.D. 211]).
"[T]he Lord said to Peter, 'On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven' [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church" (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).
The Letter of Clement to James: "Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect" (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]).
Origen: "[i]f we were to attend carefully to the Gospels, we should also find, in relation to those things which seem to be common to Peter . . . a great difference and a preeminence in the things [Jesus] said to Peter, compared with the second class [of apostles]. For it is no small difference that Peter received the keys not of one heaven but of more, and in order that whatsoever things he binds on earth may be bound not in one heaven but in them all, as compared with the many who bind on earth and loose on earth, so that these things are bound and loosed not in [all] the heavens, as in the case of Peter, but in one only; for they do not reach so high a stage with power as Peter to bind and loose in all the heavens" (Commentary on Matthew 13:31 [A.D. 248]).
Cyprian of Carthage: "The Lord says to Peter: 'I say to you,' he says, 'that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church.' . . . On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).
All of these knew Peter's role in the Church. I'm more than willing to provide any additional information you might need. But, the issue here isn't Peter.
JoeT
Come on with the Luther quotes, since he accepted Peter's authority, ( Keys of the Kingdom teaching)
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Originally Posted by JoeT777
If it's not a condemnation, what is it? You are saying, "The RCC is the only True Church. All others are not worth consideration."Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
I LOVE that the nuns have returned!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Luther did not acknowledge that Peter was the first pope.
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Originally Posted by Wondergirl
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It doesn't matter which Church we walk into? Do you mean to imply that one Church is as good as another? Then we can say the Catholic Church is in every way, at the very least, 'equal' to your Church?
The quote is taken out of context in the sense that it was a response to comments made by paraclete. Also it is mischaracterized by your paraphrase – I didn't imply, or ask, if the others were, or were, not worth consideration. I ask if the RCC could be taken as an equal to his Church. I don't think it's worth going through all the details here and I still don't understand why you find it offensive. Nonetheless, you have my assurances it was never intended to be offensive to anybody.
JoeT
Well Joe it's nice to know you never intended to be offensive but telling other Christians they are excluded from the true church is offensive. I regard all Christian Churches who hold to a common doctrine of salvation through Jesus Christ alone as equal parts of the body of ChristQuote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
I excluded nobody from the One True Church of Jesus Christ. The doors are always open; do go in if you want.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
The terms 'to believe in Christ alone', 'to believe the Lord alone, or 'to believe in Jesus alone' do not appear in Scripture in relationship to salvation. In fact, to have eternal life, i.e. salvation, at the very least there are two divine precepts required of an individual who are morally responsible and who aren't ignorant (we aren't talking intellect). First is Baptism (Cf. John 3:3-7) and the second is found in John 6:54-55, Christ said, “Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.” Any Christian can baptize another in the name of the 'Father, Son and Holy Spirit,' but the consecrated Eucharist can only be found in the Catholic Church.
If we understand ourselves to be adopted sons of God, then we are bond in a spiritual brotherhood. Christ commands, “That they all may be one, as you, Father, in me, and I in you; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you have sent me.” (John 17:21)
There can be but One faith, One Church, a unity of faith:
• Speaking of His Church, the Saviour called it a kingdom, the kingdom of heaven, the kingdom of God (Matthew 13:24, 31, 33; Luke 13:18; John 18:36);
• He compared it to a city the keys of which were entrusted to the Apostles (Matthew 5:14; 16:19),
• to a sheepfold to which all His sheep must come and be united under one shepherd (John 10:7-17);
• to a vine and its branches,
• to a house built upon a rock against which not even the powers of hell should ever prevail (Matthew 16:18).
• Moreover, the Saviour, just before He suffered, prayed for His disciples, for those who were afterwards to believe in Him — for His Church — that they might be and remain one as He and the Father are one (John 17:20-23); and
• He had already warned them that "every kingdom divided against itself shall be made desolate: and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand" (Matthew 12:25).
• Schism and disunion he brands as crimes to be classed with murder and debauchery, and declares that those guilty of "dissensions" and "sects" shall not obtain the kingdom of God (Galatians 5:20-21).
• Hearing of the schisms among the Corinthians, he asked impatiently: "Is Christ divided? Was Paul then crucified for you? or were you baptized in the name of Paul?" (1 Corinthians 1:13).
• And in the same Epistle he describes the Church as one body with many members distinct among themselves, but one with Christ their head: "For in one Spirit we are all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free" (1 Corinthians 12:13).
• To show the intimate union of the members of the Church with the one God, he asks: "The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord? For we, being many, are one bread, one body, all that partake of one bread" (1 Corinthians 10:16-17).
• Again in his Epistle to the Ephesians he teaches the same doctrine, and exhorts them to be "careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace", and he reminds them that there is but "one body and one spirit-one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all" (Ephesians 4:3-6).
• Already, in one of his very first Epistles, he had warned the faithful of Galatia that if anybody, even an angel from heaven, should preach unto them any other Gospel than that which he had preached, "let him be anathema" (Galatians 1:8).
Bullet Source: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Unity (As a Mark of the Church)
JoeT
JoeT777
In your post number 1020 you have worked under the continuous assumption that Peter has been given authority by Jesus Christ when I have proved that that is false. Then you still keep explaining that there was a Church established at the time of Jesus Christ but not giving any evidence that it was the RC. All you want to do is to state your blind beliefs over and over time and again.
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