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I am currently working on an experimental documentary about religious upbringing and in connecting with others to explore why we do or do not question our faith, I've found that most of those who feel strongly against religion were raised Catholic. What is it about Catholicism that turns so many away? Is it the "fear and guilt" associated with Catholicism? Is it the rigid traditionalism or Catholic schooling?
This is going to turn into a firestorm but here goes.
I was raised strict Roman Catholic. My split is about the "We are right and everybody else is wrong" philosophy as well as the hypocrisy. I know that RC's are not the only ones who "own" bad clergymen, hypocrites but I am not familiar with other religions.
Maybe other RC churches are different but my childhood religious experience consisted of people judging each other instead of leaving that up to God - and it turned me away. I've seen people here, on this board, preach Christianity and then in the next breath attack someone purely in the name of God.
That's my experience - I wanted a religion with less fire and brimstone and more love and support.
I see the problem as being that the RCC (and some others) as holding that there is no truth outside of their group.
That is difficult to hang on to when you see so much that is wrong going on within that group.
What EVERYONE needs to know is that NO church gives salvation.
A good church is needed and worthy of support for a lot of reasons, but SALVATION comes from knowing and receiving Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.
His record, love, and commands are all revealed in the pages of the New Testament. Read it with an open heart and mind, and you will find the TRUTH.
Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
But what about non-Christians? There is no salvation for them?
- and there is my other problem with Christianity in general.
Most are turned away by untrue statements of groups that make it their sole purpose to attack other groups.
At times one issue is that they do not cater to those that want new and modern.
But to some the changes they have made, ( like Vactican II) stoping the Latin Mass, were turn offs
jenjeru,
Your statement, "I've found that most of those who feel strongly against religion were raised Catholic." amazed me.
The Catholic religion is Christianity just as are the Protestant denominations.
Perhaps you are referring to other religions than Christianity.
I know of no Catholics who are against the religion of Christianity.
I'm a former protestant who for years was very hostile to Catholicism but the more I studied the more I could see that Catholicism was true full Christianity and after much resistance became a Catholic, but I am NOT against other denominations.
I fact I still love the denomination I left because it lead me to Jesus Christ.
So please be more clear as to what your statement says.
Are you speaking of Christian denominations or other religions?
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Thank you for your answer. I am speaking about Catholicism in particular, as a denomination of Christianity. I understand that there are many reasons for choosing a particular faith or leaving it (depending on geography, ethnicity, culture, etc.) so the fact that most of the people I have interviewed about falling away from religion are Catholic is largely based on the community in which I was raised and currently reside.
However, I'm more interested in getting a broader opinion about Catholicism and why there is such a push against it... why being raised Catholic affects people so strongly. One Catholic priest that I interviewed said to me in a joking manner, "Do you know what the largest Christian denomination around the world is today? Catholicism. Do you know what the second largest is? Former Catholics."
So again, it's not necessarily Catholics being against Christianity, but rather something about Catholicism (be it the dogmatism, or rejection of other beliefs as previously mentioned) that causes groups like "recovering Catholics" to form.
All best,
Jenna
One of the issue is "issues" the Catholic Church has a moral compass, and specific set standards, unlike some other churches, it does not allow or let people decide what they feel is right, the church tells them what is correct on issues of sex before marriage, abortion, and other issues. Along with this, many people don't like being told what is the correct moral code.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
This is also one of my concerns - in my area decisions about second marriages (without church annulments), birth control, abortion (which startles me) are matters of conscience.
Apparently if it's okay with "you" it's okay with the Church.
Very unlike the way I was taught! I was also raised to believe that the worst sin of all was bad example.
I also agree - I could do without the kiss of peace, guitar music and mass in English.
So far I have restrained myself, But can no longer hold back.
In my opinion and you are free to disagree, but In my opinion the biggest problem the RCC has are legalism, and too much pomp and ceremony. For those like Fred who like that sort of religion that's fine. But to reach people today you must talk and work at their level. That does not mean drinking and swearing , but rather actually having been where they are and able to relate to them in a real way. As I see it, priests are too insulated from real world experiences. Couple that to a hierarchy that is too steeped in robes and laws than trying to reach lost souls.
The people who are actually reaching the most people today have been delivered from drugs, alcohol, or sex addictions. They are the ones who relate to and reach people, like God commanded. Jesus did not go to the religious leaders of his day, he went to the sinners and saved them. He knew that pomp and ceremony as practiced by the Jewish leaders of the day did not work. So why do people believe it will work today?
My gosh, Donn - I can't believe we FINALLY agree on something!
Well said.
This is a can of worms; and I’ll try to keep this worm within a respectable distance of the can’s rim. From the OP I think it would be fair to assume that the perspective is strictly ‘raised Protestant’ with little contact with Catholics or the likes of me – staunchly orthodox and Roman Catholic. Some here might want to use a few different adjectives – but I earned those bad adjectives, not the Church.
The Catholic priest you spoke to was right in two ways. First, all but a very few Protestant denominations are a result of schism from the Catholic Church – their history begins with breaking away from the Catholic Church. Most have a history only 1/4th that of the span of time separating us from Christ and the commissioning of His Church. The second is that the population of the Catholic Church is comparatively large that the smallest fraction of these apostates would seem huge compared to that of the Protestant Churches.
My perception is that there are more Protestants returning home as opposed to Catholics leaving. Neverthelessto explain this small percentage leaving I’ve come to the conclusion that the reason for the perceived ‘push against the Church’ can be characterized as a viral illness of faith. Pathologically this disease starts in earnest with Martin Luther which eventually spread across Europe in 1500 & 1600’s.
It’s my opinion that Protestantism is symptomatic of the H1N1 virus of faith. It’s a designer virus attacking right reasoning since its introduction by an errant monk. (I’ve recently been convinced that he was pathologically mad – but that’s for another thread). This virus is defined by some (such as me) as liberalism; somewhat similar to the political variant. Liberalism holds that there is, as a right, emancipation from Divine Authority proclaiming a sovereignty of will in all sectors of life that control and judge all matters of faith and morals. To satisfy the liberal, God must conform His will to that of the liberal. Liberalism’s true authority resides in the subjective interior of the individual with the power to shut out God’s workings within His own creation. The philosophy proposes that "It is contrary to the natural, innate, and inalienable right and liberty and dignity of man, to subject himself to an authority, the root, rule, measure, and sanction of which is not in himself.” At least in part, and perhaps in some cases without realizing it, liberalism denies God with this autonomous freedom, conflicting with the Catholic Church. Once completely overtaken by the disease, the individual finds no ‘right’, no ‘wrong’; only that which warms the interior, that which feels good becomes good.
An autonomous authority requires “freedom from” morals as well as “freedom to” implement a proxy ethic independent of God’s will; which is how the Protestant schism is viewed by some Catholics. As such Scriptures become subjective to the individual and the meaning becomes different for each individual (or from group to group); thus we hear the refrain "one religion is as good as another." Faith becomes a social construct based on whether it feels right, or feels good, changing from time to time depending on expediency. Discipline in faith is exercised less and less; it becomes weedy with passing of time until all discipline in right reasoning is rejected. The fault seems to be that conclusions drawn from the autonomous intellectual is lacking the guidance and authority found in the Catholic Church. Judgments become rationalizations without a foundation in an absolute truth that only the Catechism brings. Thus it can be said that liberalism becomes the program of rationalism; where “Free thought begets free morals, or immorality- Restraint is thrown off and a free rein given to the passions. WHOEVER THINKS WHAT HE PLEASES WILL DO WHAT HE PLEASES (sic).” (See Link -~Liberalism is a Sin~)
--------------- EDIT-------------------
Like many viruses found in nature, there is no natural immunity, the body merely becomes accustom to profaning pathogen. Each variant of liberalism mutates from simple schismatic sect to complex variants completely void of any vestige of Christianity. There is however a treatment facility, a Divine hospice, which is the Catholic faith.
Therefore, what you see as pushing away, I see as a sick reasoning. The Church turns nobody away; I hope your priest told you that. The Church takes in sinner, saints, even grouchy old men. “Fear and guilt” isn’t connected to Catholicism it’s the only faith I know of that offers a sacrament of penance; for the contrite a complete absolution that not only removes the stain of sin, but any indebtedness to Divine Justice. So, if there is any fear or guilt, it’s entirely self induced – I would suggest from, at least in part, liberalism.
Beyond me, beyond what must sound like a grouchy old man, assuming you’re a just person, I’d suggest relying heavily on your prejudices and not dig too deep into Catholicism. The reasons are best explained by G.K. Chesterton who once wrote, "It is impossible to be just to the Catholic Church. The moment men cease to pull against it they feel a tug towards it. The moment they cease to shout it down they begin to listen to it with pleasure. The moment they try to be fair to it they begin to be fond of it. But when that affection has passed a certain point it begins to take on the tragic and menacing grandeur of a great love affair. The man has exactly the same sense of having…compromised himself; of having been in a sense entrapped, even if he is glad to be entrapped. But for a considerable time he is not so much glad as simply terrified. It may be that this real psychological experience has been misunderstood by stupider people and is responsible for all that remains of the legend that Rome is a mere trap. But that legend misses the whole point of the psychology. It is not the Pope who has set the trap or the priests who have baited it. The whole point of the position is that the trap is simply the truth. The whole point is that the man himself has made his way towards the trap of truth, and not the trap that has run after the man. All steps except the last step he has taken eagerly on his own account, out of interest in the truth; and even the last step, or the last stage, only alarms him because it is so very true.” In short, if you dig too deep you may find yourself ensnared.
JoeT
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Would you care to name names and cite examples?
No - You'll beat me up! But, if you insist I will.Quote:
Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
I think if you are going to give your opinion of where people are coming from they have the right to defend themselves (or herself, in this case, and I believe I'm the only female "here").
First of all, I didn't use gender that would identify anybody, I simply said 'writer'. I'll be happy to discuss this, it's not BAD; it simply typifies the type of 'liberalism' I was discussing. If you want to continue I will.
JoeT
jenjeru,
I firmly believe that anyone who really understands Catholic teaching will never leave the Church unless they do it for selfish sinful reasons.
It took me years to finally come to the understanding of The Church and all of its ceremony (there are very valid biblical reasons for the robes and ceremony).
Those who speak out against The Church do so much because they do not understand it and speak NOT about what it is but rather what they THINK it is.
Fr_Chuck mentioned some of the other reasons.
SOME People LIKE their immorality.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Jenjuru, you have some good answers from the posts here. Catholics that are raised Catholic or are converts, find themselves mostly leaving when they come to a point in their life when they do not want to follow the rules anymore, especially birth control and homosexuality. That is the main reason a Catholic would leave.
There are tons of other reasons, but birth control is number one. If one does not want to follow the rules, why would one want to stay?
I site this article, but it is in many places on the web, just ask most any local mom ex-Catholic you know around town.
Many Catholics Leave Faith Over Dissatisfaction With Teachings On Abortion, Other Issues, Study Finds
rosemcs,
What you say is true, but...
I very much believe that almost all people who truly know and understand the Catholic Christian faith will never leave it.
There are very good reasons the Catholic Church teaches as it does and those reasons are all biblically based.
Peace
E and kindness,
Fred
Hello Joe T.
In regards to C.B. Pallen's thesis on 'What Liberalism is"
This is a misrepresentation of Liberal philosophy. It is difficult to know where to begin so I will begin with a quote by Pallen.
'Absolute freedom of thought in politics, morals, or religion. The unrestrained liberty of the press. Such are the radical principles of Liberalism. In the assumption of absolute sovereignty of the individual, that is, his entire independence of God we find the common source of all the others. To express them all in one term in the order of ideas, they are RATIONALISM the doctrine of absolute sovereignty of human reason"
Firstly, RATIONALISM is not the basis of Liberalism. Liberal philosophers such as Mill, Bentham and Locke are empirical philosophers.
Plato, St. Thomas Aquinas and Descartes are rationalist philosophers. There is an important distinction here.
Pallen tries to paint Liberalism as a 'bootstrap' theory. This is impossible because it is empirically based. I can see why he plays the rationalist card. He knows as well as as everyone else that rationalist theories are not subject to any proof others than those contained within the premises of the theory. In other words, Pallen cannot show that Liberalism is self evidently inconsistent because it is not a rationalist theory.
TUT317,
What frightens me most about such thinking is the ultra radials of and in any party.
Saddly to me it seems that both major parties these days is run by ultra radicals AND...
Unfortunately we have some Christian denominations who appear to be run the same way.
With not enough Peace and kindness,
Fred
I as some of you know have been brought up Roman Catholic.
There are many things within the catholic church that I enjoy and some of the masses are amazing.
At the same time. I was brought up that everything was sin, that we had to confess our sins at all times. As a young child being forced to go to confession on a weekly basis. Here I am as a child thinking okay what am I going to say to the priest? I felt like I had to make up things or feel that no matter what I did, I was always needing to confess something.
Now there are many ceremonies part of the church or even rituals and beliefs of the church that actually go against Gods teachings.
I will list some,
First: Communion. We are told you have to go through all this processes to be accepted at the table or the front for communion. That children are only allowed to be blessed but now allowed to receive it.
Who exactly did Jesus welcome first and said who would be excepted in the kingdom of God, Children. So children according to the Catholic church are not aloud to receive the host? Or be welcomed along with everyone else.
Also Jesus, did not ask are you protestant, catholic, Anglican, or so forth. He welcomed ALL to the table to eat with him. All are accepted to come to Jesus. Catholic church thinks that only Catholics that are baptized and went through communion are welcomed up to receive the host but everyone else is told they can take a flying leap because they do not belong there. Wrong again. All denominations, all people who want to receive the host and believe in the gathering should be welcomed, period.
So in my own opinion the catholic rigid teachings are against Gods teaching of love and acceptance.
Recent experience with my son, he wants to be excepted and seen everybody else receive the bread except for him. It actually seriously hurt him. He should be part of the gathering of the table no matter what.
I understand the Catholics all to well. Being in church having women go to confession and then come out and talk and gossip about other people within the church because somebody might not be standing or sitting or doing whatever anybody else is doing.
I think we need to worship God. In whatever way the spirit leads us, but not the way somebody or body dictates to us.
Also we are taught the church community is very important and that within the church is where the people gather is the church.
Yet when my wife and I got married. We wanted to get married outside, by the ocean. We were told that the catholic church and specifically the priest said that is not allowed. The church, the building and the people inside the church is what makes it the community.
Although, in my mind it is not about the church, it is not about the building. It is about the peoples hearts and minds and souls and where they gather or come together should not matter.
Another thing is confession, you confess to a priest. Confessions of any kind should be brought to God. Priest or the Pope have no authority or spirit or mind to bring it to God for us. It should be up to each individual to bring their confessions to God and God alone.
Jesus is the head of the church, not the priest, not the pope. That simple really.
My mother got divorced years ago. The divorce was for legit reasons. Father had affairs and was a drunk. So years later, legally divorced. She went to the Catholic church to get married to my step father and the church refused to allow it and did not recognize her divorce. Now if you want to go by according to what the bible says in certain circumstances divorce is allowed. She was not allowed to get married. So she ended up getting married in the baptist church because they recognized her marriage.
Also my aunt had a child, she was not married. They did not want to baptize the baby because it was a baby out of wed lock and they were not going to recognize the baby as a catholic or even baptize the baby.
I also feel that each church is different depending on the priest and church. Catholic denominations are not all the same and have sin differences within different catholic churches as well as Anglican and baptist , etc...
Now in ending, You all hope. Just kidding. It does not matter what church or denomination or group you go with or attend or believe in there is no 100 percent correctness. It does not matter what denomination I went to, it does not seem that my Idea of God, and my Belief in God, and my Experience with God fits any ONE denomination or religion because guess what? Religion and denominations are ALL man made.
IMPERFECT. Now there are certain situations that I believe are right and some are wrong. I try to listen to my spirit within that God gave me to direct my life. We do have that within each of us I believe.
I do my best not to judge, but have seen lots of judgments made especially from fellow Catholics.
It is not wonder why Catholics have such a reputation. By the way just because somebody goes to church once a week does not make them any better then somebody else that does not go all the time. Or not at all. Many former Catholics believe that they know God within their hearts and souls and have formed their own opinions and thoughts about life and what God is all about.
I think I am done.
Joe
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Unfortunately for you, JoeT, I copied your post before you went back and edited it (and quoted it in my original response to you). Now you say you "didn't use gender that would identify anybbody. [I] simply said 'writer'."
Here's what you said (pre edit): One is willing to accept Catholicism for Catholics – as long as she is confined – this is a variant of 'one religion is as good as another'."
Would you like a moderator to look up your post before the change was made?
Another person who cannot defend what he posts and/or shifts position. Even worse you've denied that you said what you said - for whatever reason.
- on the religion board.
I rest my case.
It snowed here, quite a strange event for this area. In my usual morning fog, I didn't notice until I was half way to the car and found myself boot deep in snow. Southerners have no idea what to do with snow; so I'm quite lost this morning. I've heard that if you get snow on your person, you turn into a frozen pillar of ice, or something like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
If you'll notice, 'she' was in reference to the Roman Catholic Church, not to any individual. One of the comments was that Catholicism was no problem as long as we kept our views within the Church. I took it that the writer was suggesting a 'quarantine' of reason being that (my words) Catholic Truth only applies to Catholics; thus we should keep it to ourselves.
I edited out my observation out of respect for you; I apologize for being thoughtless. This is especially true knowing that that while most non-Catholics don't mind criticizing Catholicism they find it offensive when the worm turns.
My intent was to show how 'liberalism' works in contemporary thought.
I can, and I'm more than willing, to defend my case; I just want to make sure you're really willing to take 'push back' from a Catholic.
JoeT
Quite frankly, I'm out of here - I find it less than honest to substantially amend a post AFTER it's been answered. In my eyes this is very similar to deliberately misquoting anyone.
I (obviously) "didn't notice" that your reference to "she" was in regard to the Catholic Church - and I don't know why you didn't simply say that from the beginning instead of dancing this dance.
Quite frankly, it was so obvious I didn't think I needed to point it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
JoeT
jenjeru: I must question the basis of this entire thread. Your hypothesis is that people raised in the Roman Catholic church are more inclined to leave the church of their upbringing than are people raised in other Christian denominations - meaning Protestants - but you base this solely on personal observation So I would ask you two questions:
1. Is you sample biased by where you happen to live? I would guess that if you live in a neighborhood with a large RC population you'll get different set of results that if you live in an area with few RC's.
2. How do you count Protestants who grew up in one denominaton but are now members of another? In your analysis do they count as having "left"? If not, then your sampling method is invalid. Take me for example: my parents both grew up as Methodists, but moved to a town town that had only one protestant church - it was New England Congregational, so if you weren't Roman Catholic or Jewish that's where you went, and that's the church I was raised in. Then I moved away and married a girl who is Episcopalean, and that's the church we have attended for 25 years and our kids grew up in. Meanwhile my parents moved to Florida and joined the local Presbyterian Church. So I ask - does this mean my family has "left" the church 4 times? That's certainly not how we feel. So how would you count me in your poll?
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Yes I agree with that. The problem is that Pallen ignores or fails to see the importance of separating church and state. This is the basis of any liberal philosophy.
The problem is that if we reject Liberalism then we have very few alternatives other than some type of autocratic government.
Regards
Tut
What importance of separating, the church was to be protected FROM the government, not separated from it.
ebaines,Quote:
Originally Posted by ebaines
That is a very good point... allow me to clarify.
First, to be clear, I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church, I attended Catholic school for many years along with most of my very large family, so for most of my life I was surrounded by a very small community with similar beliefs. It wasn't a necessarily bad or good experience, it was just all that I knew (even though outside of my Catholic community, the town in which I grew up was predominantly Protestant.)
I left the Catholic faith in what could probably be considered a fit of teenage angst, but it was mostly that in my heart I disagreed with many of the points that others have brought up in this thread.
So when I say "leaving" the faith, I mean faith completely as a result of overwhelming negative feelings towards the religion... not switching denominations (as in your example of Methodist to Presbyterian, etc.) or even religions (I know of many converts to Judaism and Islam as well).
Once I decided to be done with religion, I never thought that it would come up again until I went to the Vatican two years ago and it struck an odd chord with me so I started on a two-year long project to try and wrestle with my issues that just happen to stem from my Catholic upbringing. I have found that my blindness in simply rejecting faith is just as ignorant as blindly believing. (If you interested in that aspect, here is more about my project.. About Project Jerusalem)
I ask this question because through trying to wrestle with the implications of my upbringing and questioning others, I have found a common trend in Catholics later rejecting their faith. By sampling people, I am not merely referring to the area I grew up in, but wide surveys in various places of the United States as well as in Jerusalem (where I traveled three months ago in order to interview religious leaders of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism). I mentioned geography because as you said in your post, sometimes religious affiliation (or denomination affiliation) is based on geography rather that a conscious effort to join one specific religion.
I know what it was about Catholicism that turned me away, but I'm curious as to what it is for others, many of which have expressed their opinions to me over the course of my project.
Hi Fr Chuck,Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
The separating of church and government was designed to highlight the distinction between secular matters and matters of faith. Government takes care of secular matters and the church takes care of religious matters. Such matters are accounted for in what is know as the social contract.
Thomas Hobbes in his, 'Leviathan' started the ball rolling. Basically Hobbes would say that it is irrelevant as to whether there is a Protestant monarch or a Catholic monarch. If the government forces everyone to be Protestant because that is what the monarch desires then so be it.
For Hobbes this is preferable to living in a state of total warfare where life is,"nasty, brutish and short".
The idea of social contract first came in when Hobbes claims that citizens should give up their freedoms, religious or otherwise and agree to obey the sovereign power.
Since Hobbes' time the social contract theory has been much refined and today religious freedoms are part of that contract.
The idea of separating church and state actually guarantees religious freedom. Not separating them actually takes away this freedom.
It is the opposite to what you would think.
Regards
Tut
Jesushelper76,
It is obvious to me that you do NOT well understand why the Church teaches and why it does as it does.
Priests DO have the authority from Jesus Himself to forgive sins. Like all else with The Church that is based on Holy Scripture.
Your mother COULD have remarried in The Church IF she had had her former marriage dissolved via an annulment.
I know because I've seen it done.
A marriage CAN take place outside the Church building.
My sister-in-law was married on a ranch by a Catholic Priest.
Permission to do that was obtained from the Bishop.
There are several very good reasons what a child must be prepared to receive Christ in the Eucharist.
One is that a person MUST be worthy to partake.
There is much more about all this regarding your post.
I suggest that you contact a good Catholic apologist who has the time to help you fully understand you CHRISTIAN CATHOLIC FAITH.
You are like many who leave The Church, they don't understand it and that all of Catholic teaching IS biblically based.
I'm a convert and needed to fully understand Catholicism before I would join it. That is why I say that anyone who fully understands The Catholic Church will never leave it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
No it doesn’t.Quote:
Originally Posted by TUT317
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
I see... Would you like the state to decide on our religious practices?
TUT,
I don't think that Joe meant that.
Religious freedom is guaranteed by our constitution and separation of Church and state should not interfere with that.
It simply means that the state cannot have or promote a religion or religious beliefs.
Although there ARE some people who do want to abuse that and harm or hinder certain religious practices or beliefs,
Some want all religions to be abolished or stopped from practicing.
Those are the ultra radical secularists who insist that religion offends them.
They are not bothered by the fact that their attitude offends me and millions of other people.
Maybe we should sue them for offending us??
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Also there are many practices that do go against God, and Gods teaching.
I have been reading the bible and yes the whole bible many times over since the young age of 9 on my own.
I have been to many different churches.
You know what Gods love goes so much deeper.
I also noticed you fail to pick away the part of the answer about Catholics not allowing other denominations or even children take part in communion.
When Jesus would welcome everyone at his table that wants to come, but Catholics and other denominations goes against that very thought. Jesus said become like children they will be the first to enter the kingdom. Yet children are not welcomed to receive the host. Guess what that is wrong and not right and against the teachings of the bible.
Please do not underestimate my understanding of the catholic church. Considering I have been in a catholic church all my life.
You and many others can not rap around the idea that maybe all is not right. You know what, God would not really look down here and really think that an argument over such things is actually worth it do you.
In the greatest commandment Jesus left us is to LOVE one another. Not to make judgments on one another. That God is the only judge.
Now I will go on for some more examples.
Homosexuality, and Abortion which are one of the two biggest debates in any church.
Are we to judge somebody that is living the lifestyle as a homosexual, the answer is no. It is not up to us.
Are we to judge somebody who has an abortion. No we are not. It is not up to us.
Especially when the church catholic church had a situation where a nine year old got raped by her father and she ended up getting pregnant with twins. I think she ended up having an abortion. Does the church have a right to sit their and tell the mother and child that she is going to be condemned to hell for going through with the procedure. I think not.
I am against abortion, I do not believe in it, but every single person has to make up their own individual mind about what is right and wrong and God will judge their heart, not you or me.
As far as homosexuality is it right to judge no. What we are supposed to do, is show Gods love to one another. Not just because you agree with certain people, but also show love towards others that you might think is living the wrong way but we need to embrace each other with love no matter what are differences are.
No one should feel excluded from the church because of their sexual history because quite frankly everybody has sinned in one manner or another. None of us are perfect. None of us have a right to judge.
We can say we do not believe in this lifestyle, that we do not believe it is right. Same as abortion in my eyes can be considered murder, but how can you sit there and judge a 9 year old of murder when she was a victim herself.
Okay as far as my mother she should have been allowed to be married in the church anyway. She was legally divorced. She got remarried what some 20 years later.
How about my aunt that they did not want to baptize their child because the child was out of wedlock.
I will say it again. That people treat and follow around the pope like a star, like an idol. How much did God love his idols?
Priests and teachers and anyone can become an idol to somebody but we need to look at God. Within our spirit let God talk to our hearts and not have it dictated to us by any church.
ALL DENOMINATIONS OR CHRISTIAN CHURCHES OR RELIGIONS ARE NOT 100 PERCENT CORRECT IN ANYTHING. IT IS ALL MAN MADE.
Simple really.
Jesushelper76,
There are very good sound reason why other deniominations and children are not aloud to take communion and I DID mention that a person musst ne wee prepared to take it.
The reason is that the bible says that a person should NOT partake of the body and blood of Jesus if they are unworthy.
That is why The Church tries its best to be sure that a person who partakes is worthy and that they receive itin a worthy proper manner.
As I said before, everything The Church teaches and DOES IS based on Holy Scripture; EVERYTHING!!
Peace and kindness,
Fred
A Child is not worthy?? I think children are more worthy then adults to receive the host.
Nope not all scripture based. NO NOT EVERYTHING. Sorry but you need to understand the church, catholic church specifically does not have it right. All Right, and no it is not ALL scripture based.
If that was the case you would see ALL the children receive the host and other judgmental and no it all adults would have to take a back seat.
Is any of us worthy, Think not. See what I mean. Your arguments for, fall flat.
[QUOTE=arcura;2219145]TUT,
I don't think that Joe meant that.
Religious freedom is guaranteed by our constitution and separation of Church and state should not interfere with that.
It simply means that the state cannot have or promote a religion or religious beliefs.
Hi Fred,
I see what you are getting at now. Thanks for clearing that up.
Regards
Tut
Jesushelper, from what planet are you speaking of that all children are worthy? Have you hung around children lately? (You are talking to a sub teacher here.) It really depends on which child and most children behave greatly on how their parents raise them, the parent being the one that is responsible for their example.
By worthy in the Catholic Church, it means that they have been baptized and do not have the stain of mortal sin on the soul. This is what is meant by total communion with the Church. One is having a relationship with Christ, who is head of the Church, and therefore abides by what He has established. Once again, I say from my previous post, that if one does not want to follow the rules, why would one even want to stay in that religion? (I don't say this for you, just in general, as a theoretical question.)
Let's switch it around a bit and say that an outsider to the Catholic Faith (or to any religion) can not get offended by not being accepted (ie. Being able to receive Holy Communion), if that person does not accept the teachings anyway... either you are for or against. One could compare it to having to accept any code of conduct in the freemasons, boy scouts, military, you name it. You belong if you accept the teachings (rules, code, etc). Otherwise, why bother being in that group?
I have nothing against you, and love your name... this post is getting off topic, but maybe jenjuru will gain some perspective from it. I believe that we are opening up a whole new range of topics with these discussions.
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