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-   -   Do you believe in the devil? (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=419628)

  • Nov 26, 2009, 06:02 PM
    arcura
    Do you believe in the devil?
    DO WE BELIEVE IN THE DEVIL?
    Rev. P. J. Mc Hugh

    Angels are not in style now and devils even less so. A homily on principalities and powers.. . The rulers of this world of darkness will cause reactions that range from a wan smile to (I quote one man at the sacristy door after Mass) “You mean to tell me you guys believe in devils in this day and age?” What I should have said, but did not was, “Let me tell you something: in this day and age more than ever before.” It is a pity we think of our brilliant ripostes at 2:00 in the morning. The devil is still very much part of our Faith, even if we are silent about him; indeed, especially then. It is not difficult to quote documents that confirm what the Church has always taught and now repeats in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

    The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God s reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries—of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature—to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him. Par 395

    One hears all kinds of strange things in—what shall I call them?—great gatherings (yes, that will do). This kind of thing: the devils of the Gospels were sick states of mind but, because of their ignorance of psychopathology, they attributed what they could not understand to devils.

    Wait a moment! When Jesus said to the devils in the possessed man, What is your name? And the answer came back, Our name is legion. There are many of us here, He was most certainly not addressing a sickness. And besides, sicknesses do not come out.. . Shrieking horribly.

    It is astounding how easily even the good and pious are swayed by articulate people and they are greatly impressed (or words to that effect). Devils are dismissed out of hand and the Scripture references along with the Documents of the Church, as well. And all of this within the Church—within it, mark well. The crisis of Faith, and the consequent plague of relativism, is a contagion that is making the Body of Christ deeply, terribly ill. Devils can only be seen on the screen of the radarscope of Faith. If we are to think our way into what the demonic means in our world and in our lives, we have to start there, in what the Word of God proclaims.

    The angelic universe was shattered in the conflict led on one side by Michael and on the other by Satan. This same war against God and His Creation spilled over into space and time; we are involved in this battle that fills the ages for the war is now waged through humans on both sides. Which means that although we cannot—we must not—see devils everywhere, there is something worse: to see them nowhere. The Second Vatican Council reminds us:. A monumental struggle against the powers of darkness pervades the whole history of man: the battle was joined from the very origins of the world and will continue until the last day, as the Lord has attested.

    Caught in this conflict, man is obliged to wrestle constantly if he is to cling to what is good. Nor can he achieve his own integrity without valiant efforts and the help of God s grace.

    The Church in the Modern World, par 37—Here is where the mystery become opaque: the conflict is against God and against Creation, that is to say, against the natural structures of human life, against all that is good and beautiful and decent and wholesome and true. In one word, against the Humane. The war is against Creation because Creation is God s handiwork and bears His stamp and impress. This is why Marriage, Family and Home are under attack now. The onslaught does not come from human perversity—that and nothing else besides. Powers of darkness are working through humans to corrupt, to degrade, to tear down.

    Our pastoral problem is how to lead our people, heavily infected as most of them are on the secular smog they inhale and exhale, to an awareness of the Demonic. One way might be to tell them of the five D s of the demonic: deceive, degrade, divide, defile, destroy. Whenever these five signs appear something unspeakably malign is present and active.

    To deceive. The truth is ripped apart with such cunning that words mean their opposite—choice becomes freedom to kill, slavery becomes peace, democracy means the invading power of the State, language is turned inside out. Barabbas is lionized and cheered; Jesus is branded as disturbing the people and led away to crucifixion. Jesus said of Satan:

    "Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot hear my word. The father you spring from is the devil, and willingly you carry out his wishes. He brought death to man from the beginning, and has never based himself on truth; the truth is not in him. Lying speech is his native tongue; he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I deal in the truth, you give me no credence" John 8: 43-45

    The thrust of the devil is against reality within human minds, against Truth. It is not that people believe nothing—they believe anything. When men lose Faith, Reason disintegrates as well and the lamps of order, of lucidity, of splendor of thought are extinguished one by one. Political correctness prevails; ideology dominates where theology had been queen; the screech against holiness and goodness and truth fills the world and is heard everywhere, even within the Church. Even there. The mind is at the apex of creation because through this god-like power we come into contact with all that is Real. Since Reality is our destiny in glory, the mind becomes a target for demons to ravage and destroy. We need to remind ourselves that the conflict that fills the world is against God and against Creation; that is to say, against the whole world of the Humane. Devils are far from being imps with horns, pitchforks and tails and they are never so successful as when they project that image of themselves into human minds.

    To degrade: In one of his newsletters, Pastor Wurmbrand described how degradation was the chief weapon the Communists used to dehumanize their victims. The ways they would go about doing that were diabolical—there was a cunning and a hatred out of this world working through all they did. Degradation is a fearsome psychological weapon; the victim loses all sense of personal worth and, as that fades, the will to live shrivels up. To degrade is to murder, to kill. Jesus said Satan.. . Was a murderer from the beginning and the truth was not in him.

    This does not mean that we are only puppets manipulated by demons or that we should think in mere dualistic terms as if Good and Evil were somehow equal and that the outcome of this war is in doubt. God allows evil, the malice of the devils fits into His eternal Plan. Even so, the reality of angelic ill-will remains. We cannot hope to begin to come to any understanding of Evil if we leave aside the mysterious personal dimension therein. To quote Shakespeare, Hell breathes forth contagion on the world. The abominations in our world are only partly man- made; human malice is not the full explanation. Spirits living in a realm of Disorder and Evil and Hate are involved in the evil we think and choose and do. An imaginary observer from outer space looking down on us would see the titanic War of the Spirits, the primal conflict between Michael and Satan, carried on in a world of space and time.

    The degradation of man, the onslaught against all that is worthy of respect, admiration and praise, the grinding down of humans to the sub-human and below, is an example of the ways Satan manifests his hatred for man and attempts to destroy us. For in every man Satan sees, if we do not, the Man, born of the Virgin Mary, crucified under Pontius Pilate, Who rose again on the third day; the onslaught is against Him and degradation is the weapon.

    They came to Gerasene territory on the other side of the lake. As he got out of the boat, he was immediately met by a man from the tombs who had an unclean spirit. The man had taken refuge among the tombs; he could no longer be restrained even with a chain. In fact, he had frequently been secured with handcuffs and chains, but had pulled the chains apart and smashed the fetters. No one had proved strong enough to tame him. Uninterruptedly night and day, amid the tombs and on the hillsides, he screamed and gashed himself with stones. Mark 5: 1-5

    The war against Creation is waged on so many fronts, it would take a large book to describe them all. What is terrifying now is the disintegration of natural bonds that even pagans of all ages held sacred and, not least, the holocaust—a strong word, but accurate—of false accusations of adult children against their own parents; of false accusations, mark well. One published figure lists 13,000: thirteen thousand. And these are only the people who gave their names to the False Memory Center in Philadelphia. Never before in history has there been such an onslaught against the natural bonds of the family from within. Are we to dismiss all this as mere human frailty, and nothing else besides? Or must we fall back on what God has revealed: there are demons loose upon the earth and, because our culture is so deeply secularized, untouched by grace, devils roam at will? For they can be driven out only by the force of the grace of God coming against them and through people who center their lives on the Eucharist, on this Presence the Church calls Real. Our good works and prayers are weapons that hurl back devils, but from their point of view,

    Perpetual Adoration is the spiritual A- bomb they fear most of all. Make your Holy Hour before the Lord every day and get as many of your parishioners to do the same. As you do—if you do—you will come to a strange, indefinable and indescribable awareness of Someone Who looks, Who calls, Who loves. But wait, I am not finished. You will also become aware, through strange things that happen, of another presence that glares and stirs up hatred against all you stand for.. . That, too. Perpetual Adoration is glorious. But know that you and your people are hurling spiritual A-bombs against demons and demons do not take this lying down. No, they do not. We read that the Cure of Ars was hurled out of bed. We smile. He got away lightly. What Satan and his devils can do is.. . Diabolical, literally. It must pain them to have to resort to such tricks as tossing us around when what they actually do is more fitted to what they are: angels with a cunning out of this world.

    To divide. We can speak of heaven as a community of persons in glory. The word that is at the heart of all we believe is community, for this is our destiny; this is what we are on our way to. Death is the point where our friends in heaven suddenly burst into view and they will all say (I hope), Welcome Home! For all of these reasons—community.. . Union.. . Harmony.. . Peace.. . Home—are targets demons use to divide and thereby to destroy. Is it wild to think that dissent against the solemn teaching of the Church does not come altogether from human frailty, ignorance or partisan passion but from another realm alien to God and at war with Him? Is this paranoia or can we at least suspect that the fierce, unremitting thrust to divide the Church is part of Satan s endless war? Hence the urgency of asking the Lord day after day for the grace we all need to be faith-ful (take note of that hyphen) and to be forever loyal to Peter in all we think and do and say.

    To defile. Persons and places become poisoned with rancor, suspicion, anger and hate; they become horrible in a strange unearthly way; there is some indefinable soul-corruption there.
    Demons defile the world. In a moment of rare honesty among many artists, Picasso once admitted how depressed he had allowed himself to become.

    In art the mass of the people no longer seek consolation and exaltation, but those who are refined, rich, unoccupied, who are distillers of quintessences, seek what is new, strange, original, extravagant, scandalous. I myself, since Cubism and before, have satisfied these masters and critics with all the changing oddities which have passed through my head, and the less they understood me, the more they admired me. By amusing myself with all these games, with all these absurdities, puzzles, rebuses, arabesques, I became famous and that very quickly.

    And fame for a painter means sales, gains, fortune, riches. And today, as you know, I am celebrated, I am rich. But when I am alone with myself, I have not the courage to think of myself as an artist in the great and ancient sense of the term. Giotto, Titian, Rembrandt, were great painters. I am only a public entertainer who has understood his times and exploited as best he could the imbecility, the vanity, the cupidity of his contemporaries. Mine is a bitter confession, more painful than it may appear, but it has the merit of being sincere.

    To destroy. When Jesus met the two men possessed by demons, the Gospel tells us that they were so savage no one could pass that way. Violence is the mark of Satan. Violence is not of the body only—beating, robbing, killing—but also, indeed most of all, the violence of reviling, of false accusation, of tearing down, of tale-bearing, of mockery, of sneering, of hate.
    Our Blessed Lord summed up the demonic in one line. He said of Satan that he was a murderer from the beginning. The Word of God projects a struggle, a war, between opposing forces. St. John constantly speaks of light and darkness, life and death. Against Christ appears the Great Adversary who is, in Our Lord s own words, ruler of this world. With Satan are arrayed the earthly powers, those who hate the light and become instruments of Satan against God. All around us are propagandists for bestial, existential, amoral life-styles. They are followers of de Sade, who told them, “Whatever you feel like doing is good for you. If you enjoy torture, well and good . . . violations of so-called moral laws are both permissible and actually laudable, because they demonstrate the artificiality of such restraints and because the restraints impede the only demonstrable good: personal pleasure.”

    This article appeared in the August/September 1995 issue of "The Homiletic & Pastoral Review," 86 Riverside Dr. New York, N.Y. 10024 – Reprinted by permission.
    :)Peace and kindness,:)
    Fred
  • Nov 26, 2009, 06:37 PM
    Fr_Chuck

    Devil is not politically correct, since it would mean that there also had to be a God. So with many that deny God, they can't accept a Devil since that would require there be a God.

    And even for those that accept some God, they only want a happy lovey God .
  • Nov 26, 2009, 10:08 PM
    arcura
    Fr_Chuck
    That is correct for many, but I believe in both God and the devil.
    To me their works are obvious.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred
  • Nov 26, 2009, 11:23 PM
    Maggie 3
    1Peter 8, "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a
    roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9, Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing
    that the same suffering are experienced by your brotherhood in the world."

    We must never forget that we are in a spiritual war, regardless of how well things may seem to be going for us. We live in a perpetual war zone. How many casualties
    Occur because we think we live in a time of peace. Regardless of our concern or
    Worry, God wants us to bring everything to Him. He always has our best interests at heart
    And will rouse all His infinite power to help us become the people we are meant
    To be.

    Love and Blessing Maggie 3
  • Nov 27, 2009, 12:19 PM
    Maggie 3
    Fred, We know we have the victory over satan, the devil, because of what Jesus did
    At the cross. The power of the Holy Spirit is in us, a gift from God, but do most people
    Know this, or the power of it. God's power for us to fight this spiritual battle is with His
    Holy Spirt. The tragely is that millions of people around the world remain hopless
    And helpless, daily they face heartache, oppression, and trials alone, unaware that God's
    Power and love are available to them. One thing that brings assurance and hope is that
    God is in control. This fact can encourage and strengthen your heart. "He is our very
    present help in time of trouble". Ps.46:1
    Faith says that we will recover and our final state will be better, that all things work
    Together for good. Our week faith in Jesus is what threatenes us. Our minds say we
    Are "doomed" and we believe it, Jesus says, be transformed by the renewing of
    Your mind, use your faith in a new way, "I can do all things though Christ who
    stfrengthens me." Fill your mind with Hope and Joy of the Lord, and His promises.

    Love in Jesus, Maggie 3
  • Nov 28, 2009, 11:02 PM
    arcura
    Maggie 3,
    You made some good points but I want to point out that we do not live in a time of peace.
    The devil is hard at work in many places and in many ways.
    One of the most significant is the war on worldwide terrorism. It was started by people motivated by fanatic hate and a love of violence against almost anyone including their own people.
    Their own people who are innocent non-combatant people are being killed by the hundreds and thousands.
    They have caused much damage worldwide and here in the USA they killed about 4000 people on 9/11 with 4 commandeered air planes.
    With that sort of people in the world I vigorously hope and pray for worldwide peace and kindness,
    Fred
  • Nov 29, 2009, 03:46 PM
    Dararamm

    I don't believe in God or the Devil. God has killed more people then the Devil according to the Bible so why would that make the Devil the bad guy. It's all one big headache. So I choose not to believe in them. ^^
  • Nov 29, 2009, 05:34 PM
    ScottGem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dararamm View Post
    God has killed more people then the Devil according to the Bible

    I'm curious as to what scripture you got this from? I have a suspicion but please enlighten us.
  • Nov 29, 2009, 05:36 PM
    Fr_Chuck
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dararamm View Post
    I don't believe in God or the Devil. God has killed more people then the Devil according to the Bible so why would that make the Devil the bad guy. It's all one big headache. So I choose not to believe in them. ^^


    Actually it is mans actions that causes his death, and it is Satan that caused any death to start with, Adam and Eve did not have death till Satan got involved
  • Nov 30, 2009, 12:43 AM
    arcura
    Dararamm,
    God did not kill as you claim.
    God gives us life and He can take it back as He does for all mortals.
    BUT he also offers us eternal life in paradise while Satan offers us the opportunities that can provide for us and eternity in the abode of aginy which is hell.
    My choice is to follow God and do His will as best I can taking the road to heaven.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred
  • Nov 30, 2009, 01:59 PM
    Dararamm

    Yeah, but since I'm not Christian I have a hard time imagining that God gave me life, I personally think that my parents gave me life. God had nothing to do with is, as far as I'm concerned. I know too many good people that have gone through so much and most of these people don't want to believe in God because what sort of God would make you're life so difficult. If there is a heaven, I don't think I'd want to go there. The theory about Adam and Eve is just something I'm not even going to get into here because like I said before I don't believe God created us. Instead of having faith in God. I'm believing in myself.
    I think it's great for people to believe in a higher power. If that gives them peace then that's all good. But I lost my faith in God a long time ago. But I admire you who believe no matter what. My life doesn't need a higher being to have faith in.
  • Nov 30, 2009, 02:22 PM
    ScottGem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dararamm View Post
    Yeah, but since I'm not Christian I have a hard time imagining that God gave me life, I personally think that my parents gave me life. God had nothing to do with is, as far as I'm concerned. I know too many good people that have gone through so much and most of these people don't want to believe in God because what sort of God would make you're life so difficult. If there is a heaven, I don't think I'd want to go there. The theory about Adam and Eve is just something I'm not even going to get into here because like I said before I don't believe God created us. Instead of having faith in God. I'm believing in myself.
    I think it's great for people to believe in a higher power. If that gives them peace then that's all good. But I lost my faith in God a long time ago. But I admire you who believe no matter what. My life doesn't need a higher being to have faith in.

    First, You did not answer my question about where you are getting the idea that God killed so many people.

    Second, So you believe your parents gave you life. OK, but how did that happen? Have you ever considered all that goes in during the process of a child being born or even conceived? How did your parents meet? What set of circumstances resulted in their meeting? What caused them to fall in love and get married? Then there is the actual act. How did one particular sperm manage to fertilize an egg that, in itself was receptive to fertilization? How designed the mechanism whereby a human male produces sperm and a human female produces eggs and the mechanism, to deliver the sperm and the egg into an environment where it can be fertilized and nourished until it can be pushed out into the world? Did you ever stop to think about all that? I certainly doubt it.

    Let me add, that I don't believe in a god as depicted by the old and new testaments. Nor do I believe in a deity that is watching over us and meddling in our lives. But you can't just ignore some of the things I just mentioned.
  • Nov 30, 2009, 02:51 PM
    Dararamm
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ScottGem View Post
    First, You did not answer my question about where you are getting the idea that God killed so many people.

    Second, So you believe your parents gave you life. OK, but how did that happen? Have you ever considered all that goes in during the process of a child being born or even conceived? How did your parents meet? What set of circumstances resulted in their meeting? What caused them to fall in love and get married? Then there is the actual act. How did one particular sperm manage to fertilize an egg that, in itself was receptive to fertilization? How designed the mechanism whereby a human male produces sperm and a human female produces eggs and the mechanism, to deliver the sperm and the egg into an environment where it can be fertilized and nourished until it can be pushed out into the world? Did you ever stop to think about all that? I certainly doubt it.

    Let me add, that I don't believe in a god as depicted by the old and new testaments. Nor do I believe in a deity that is watching over us and meddling in our lives. But you can't just ignore some of the things I just mentioned.

    Geez, I don't want to fight with you guys. Don't take my opinion that seriously. ^^
    I'll tell you why I think God killed more people then the Devil but you can't be all serious about it. Because I would love to believe that God is actually there ^^
    I used to be Christian as a kid. Praying with my dad and stuff. :p
    Let's see... Noah's Ark, drowning everyone. And when he sent the plagues to the Egyptians. Those are two things I'm mentioning but already that's a lot of people.
    But you guys will just say that he gave them life so he's allowed to take it away.
    And if that's what you believe then who am I to argue with that.
    I don't push my beliefs on to people. ^^
    And about how I things my parents made me and God had nothing to do with it.
    I still stand by what I said. I don't think he had anything to do with it.
    But that's just what I think. I'm just one person on a planet full of people.
    Many never even think about it. It's just life. =)
    But if I were Christian you would make some good points :)
  • Nov 30, 2009, 03:08 PM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ScottGem View Post
    First, You did not answer my question about where you are getting the idea that God killed so many people.

    This gets floated around a lot:
    http://www.daily-nonsense.com/Blog/w...atan-thumb.jpg

    It's based on keeping count of "smitten" people in both testaments.
  • Nov 30, 2009, 03:19 PM
    ScottGem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dararamm View Post
    I'll tell you why I think God killed more people then the Devil but you can't be all serious about it. Because I would love to believe that God is actually there ^^ ...
    Let's see... Noah's Ark, drowning everyone. And when he sent the plagues to the Egyptians. Those are two things I'm mentioning but already that's a lot of people.

    Good, that's what I thought you were getting at and I happen to think it's a valid point. I'll add a couple of others; Sodom and Gomorrah and Egyptians drowned in the Red Sea. And before anyone jumps on these examples saying they were deserved, that's not the issue. According to the Bible, God had directly caused the death of untold numbers of people. Whether those deaths were justified or not is a different discussion. But Dararamm is correct in stating that he did.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dararamm View Post
    I still stand by what I said. I don't think he had anything to do with it.
    But that's just what I think. I'm just one person on a planet full of people.
    Many never even think about it. It's just life. =)
    But if I were Christian you would make some good points :)

    What you think about how you came to be born, is totally up to you. Like you I do not believe in forcing my opinion on others. I am very happy that people find solace in their belief in God, whether they be Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu or whatever. I find solace in different ways.

    My point in listing all those factors is that, if you are going to form a belief such as you have, I feel you need to make sure your belief provides answers for all those questions I asked. Otherwise, you are practicing blind faith which is what gets most people who are religious into the same dilemma.
  • Nov 30, 2009, 03:21 PM
    ScottGem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    This gets floated around a lot:
    http://www.daily-nonsense.com/Blog/w...atan-thumb.jpg

    It's based on keeping count of "smitten" people in both testaments.

    Hmmm, wonder how they count those drowned in the flood, etc.
    BTW, I knew the answer, just wanted to see what Dararamm's answer was.
  • Nov 30, 2009, 03:21 PM
    NeedKarma
    Damn it Scott, always a step ahead of me. :)
  • Nov 30, 2009, 03:29 PM
    ScottGem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by arcura View Post
    Dararamm,
    God did not kill as you claim.
    God gives us life and He can take it back as He does for all mortals.
    ...
    My choice is to follow God and do His will as best I can taking the road to heaven.

    I have a problem with this, Fred. All DaraRamm claimed was that God has killed more people than the Devil. Do you truly dispute that? I suggest reading my comments and NeedKarma's chart before you try. Whether God has the right to take back the lives you believe he gives is a different discussion, which I'm not going to get into since its based on faith.

    As to your choice. This is where I have a large problem with many Christians. How do you define God's will (that's a rhetorical question and I do not expect or want an answer)? I define it as following the "Golden Rule" and the moral code as set down in the Ten Commandments. I feel as long as I live according to those, then, IF there is a heaven, then I will be welcomed into it. In the meantime. I feel good that I am doing good. But, if you define God's will as following the rules of any specific church, then you completely lose me.
  • Nov 30, 2009, 03:36 PM
    Dararamm

    Didn't know that people were interested in what I had to say about this. =3 But I agree with ScottGem. ^^
  • Nov 30, 2009, 03:42 PM
    Fr_Chuck

    My only issue, if they don't believe in God, then how do they believe that "god" killed all of the people.

    You can't not believe when it serves your purpose and then believe to make a point.
  • Nov 30, 2009, 03:51 PM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck View Post
    You can't not beleive when it serves your purpose and then beleive to make a point.

    Man isn't that the truth - for everybody.
  • Nov 30, 2009, 03:55 PM
    Alty
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck View Post
    My only issue, if they don't beleive in God, then how do they beleive that "god" killed all of the people.

    You can't not beleive when it serves your purpose and then beleive to make a point.

    It's for the sake of discussion Chuck.

    When discussing an issue that is faith based you have to use that persons faith to discuss the issue.

    In this case Arcura stated that God didn't kill anyone, but according to the bible that Arcura follows, this simply isn't true.
  • Nov 30, 2009, 04:14 PM
    ScottGem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck View Post
    My only issue, if they don't beleive in God, then how do they beleive that "god" killed all of the people.

    You can't not beleive when it serves your purpose and then beleive to make a point.

    Well the point here is that we are saying what the Bible says, not what we necessarily believe.
  • Nov 30, 2009, 06:42 PM
    arcura
    Altenweg,
    I believe I said that with and explanation that God takes back what He gives.
    He will take the life of every mortal in many different ways.
    God has His reasons of why in each case.
    If you want to call that killing that's your choice not mine.
    Regardless of that as the old saying goes we will not live this life without death.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred
  • Nov 30, 2009, 07:05 PM
    Alty
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by arcura View Post
    Altenweg,
    I believe I said that with and explanation that God takes back what He gives.
    He will take the life of every mortal in many different ways.
    God has His reasons of why in each case.
    If you want to call that killing that's your choice not mine.
    Regardless of that as the old saying goes we will not live this life without death.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred

    Of course we'll all die eventually, I'm not talking about normal death, I'm talking about killing.

    The great flood. He let those people die. He killed them by drowning them. That's just one example.

    The bible does explain why this happened, still, he mass murdered all those people. There's no way to sugar coat it. He caused the flood, he made them drown. If you put someone's head in a tub full of water and they die, you killed them.
  • Nov 30, 2009, 08:17 PM
    ScottGem

    From Dictionary.com:
    1. To deprive of life, animal or vegetable, in any manner or by any means; to render inanimate; to put to death; to slay. [1913 Webster]

    So, according to the Old Testament, God deprived of life any being not on the Ark. Yes there are many issues that derive from this act. Justification, the right as the creator to do this etc.

    But those issues do not, in any way, change the fact that, according to the Bible, God killed all those beings. For the purpose of THIS discussion that is the only issue.
  • Nov 30, 2009, 10:46 PM
    elscarta
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Altenweg View Post
    Of course we'll all die eventually, I'm not talking about normal death, I'm talking about killing.

    The great flood. He let those people die. He killed them by drowning them. That's just one example.

    The bible does explain why this happened, still, he mass murdered all those people. There's no way to sugar coat it. He caused the flood, he made them drown. If you put someone's head in a tub full of water and they die, you killed them.

    Altenweg, God did not mass murder all those people. Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being. God had every right to judge those people and to kill them for their disobedience and wickedness and for siding with the Devil.

    Killing the enemy in a war is not murder, nor is capital punishment murder.
  • Nov 30, 2009, 11:05 PM
    Alty
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by elscarta View Post
    Altenweg, God did not mass murder all those people. Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being. God had every right to judge those people and to kill them for their disobedience and wickedness and for siding with the Devil.

    Killing the enemy in a war is not murder, nor is capital punishment murder.

    Killing is killing. You can put a pretty bow on it by saying that it's just, but it's still killing.

    Here's the way I see it, and forgive me if I make this a bit long.

    A while back I belonged to another site (yes, I know, bad Alty, I cheated on AMHD) and we got into a discussion about child molesters and the punishment these people should get.

    Now, many of you know that I was molested as a child. It's by far the most horrible thing that's ever happened to me, and I've been through a lot of crap in my life. But the memories of that have definitely affected me more then any other event in my life.

    So, when confronted with this issue I said that I wouldn't be at all sorry if child molesters got the chair. Fry them. Get them out of our world. I wouldn't shed a tear.

    Another member came on and asked if I'd want to push the button, pull the trigger, whatever it takes to end this persons life. Would I be willing, through my rage, to do that? I more then most would be justified, but could I? Would I?

    I really had to think about it. These people take a child and make every day thereafter a living hell. They take away the innocence, the good, the child, in the child. They are the bottom of the barrel when it comes to decency. They should not be allowed to roam the earth, but, could I kill someone, even knowing what they've done? Could I kill the person that molested me?

    No. I couldn't. It's murder.

    Do they deserve to die? I think they do, but it won't be by my hand. I'm not a killer.

    So, kill the "enemy" in a war and justify it by saying that you're doing it for your country. It's still murder. Kill the people that wouldn't believe in God, let them drown, it's still murder.

    You can't put a pretty bow on murder. You just can't. Thou shalt not kill, that's from your bible. Funny how that particular commandment always gets looked over when someone wants to kill.
  • Dec 1, 2009, 12:18 AM
    arcura
    Altenweg,
    I understand where you are coming from.
    I am one of those who is against satate sanctioned killing of killers, etc.
    I'm very much for life.
    But Child molesters do need to be taken from society for all time, never released from jailI have read that in jail other prisoners are very rough on child milesters.
    If so, so be it.
    But I do not think that God murders people.
    Murder is a legal term, for the crime of unjustifily taking a life.
    Some taking of life is justified.
    As an example in self defence or to protect one's family.
    That is legally called justifiable homicide.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred
  • Dec 1, 2009, 12:21 AM
    JoeCanada76
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Altenweg View Post
    Killing is killing. You can put a pretty bow on it by saying that it's just, but it's still killing.

    Here's the way I see it, and forgive me if I make this a bit long.

    A while back I belonged to another site (yes, I know, bad Alty, I cheated on AMHD) and we got into a discussion about child molesters and the punishment these people should get.

    Now, many of you know that I was molested as a child. It's by far the most horrible thing that's ever happened to me, and I've been through a lot of crap in my life. But the memories of that have definitely affected me more then any other event in my life.

    So, when confronted with this issue I said that I wouldn't be at all sorry if child molesters got the chair. Fry them. Get them out of our world. I wouldn't shed a tear.

    Another member came on and asked if I'd want to push the button, pull the trigger, whatever it takes to end this persons life. Would I be willing, through my rage, to do that? I more then most would be justified, but could I? Would I?

    I really had to think about it. These people take a child and make every day thereafter a living hell. They take away the innocence, the good, the child, in the child. They are the bottom of the barrel when it comes to decency. They should not be allowed to roam the earth, but, could I kill someone, even knowing what they've done? Could I kill the person that molested me?

    No. I couldn't. It's murder.

    Do they deserve to die? I think they do, but it won't be by my hand. I'm not a killer.

    So, kill the "enemy" in a war and justify it by saying that you're doing it for your country. It's still murder. Kill the people that wouldn't believe in God, let them drown, it's still murder.

    You can't put a pretty bow on murder. You just can't. Thou shalt not kill, that's from your bible. Funny how that particular commandment always gets looked over when someone wants to kill.

    I really wanted to give you a greenie and more. Alty, that is it. Murder is murder. Can not put a pretty bow on murder. Thou shalt not kill, that is true. Under any circumstances it is not right to take anothers life.

    God does not murder anyone. Creator of life. It is humans that kill each other and try to blame God or use God as a reasoning for them doing the killing.
  • Dec 1, 2009, 12:27 AM
    Alty

    Arcura, I understand where you're coming from too. I also agree that whatever happens to child molesters in prison, well, so be it, I'll turn a blind eye. ;)

    The thing I have a hard time with, with regards to the flood especially, is the fact that innocent people did die. I don't think that killing everyone but Noah and his family, 2 of each animal, etc. was justifiable. What about babies? Babies are born innocent, without sin, but they were killed in order to cleanse the world.

    I just can't see how killing innocent people is justified. What harm could a child do to God?

    I'm not saying that your belief is wrong, but I do think that God killed. The fact that innocents were killed makes it a hard pill for me to swallow.

    The fact is, Thou shalt not kill is one of the commandments, but most people think that some killing is okay. Someone else gave the example of war or capital punishment. So is it really a commandment? Is it then okay to commit adultery if it's justified? What about stealing? If the family is starving and they steal would that be justifiable?

    It's either a rule or it isn't. There are no gray areas. If there's a gray area for one rule then the rest are pretty much null and void as well.
  • Dec 1, 2009, 01:13 PM
    Maggie 3
    "God Is In Control" This is what gives me peace about things I can not understand.
    God see the big picture, He knows what needs to be done and at the right time
    Almighty God created this world out of nothing, put in into space, created all the
    Galaxies in the universe put thelaws of nature in motion, and governs and guides
    His creation. Certainly , He is in control of it. Not only did He create the universe, but
    He sustains it and keeps it. That's what Paul said and describes in Col.1.
    We will never clearly understand God and His working here on earth,But God is in
    Control. I do believe that all things work together for good for thoes that love
    The Lord and are called according to His pupose. Rom. 8:28

    Col. 1:15-20 "He(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, firstborn over all creation.
    For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible
    and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things
    were created though Him and for Him. And He is befor all things, and in Him all
    things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning,
    the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
    For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness shoud dwell, and by Him to
    reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven,
    having made peace though the blood of His cross".

    Trust and have Faith, that God is in Control!

    Maggie3
  • Dec 1, 2009, 02:36 PM
    ScottGem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Maggie 3 View Post
    Trust and have Faith, that God is in Control!

    Maggie3

    I'm very glad that you find comfort in all that. But your post really had little if anything to do with the current discussion. Moreover, while its very nice that you find comfort that god is in control, not everyone does. If God is in control, then he is responsible for 9/11, Darfur, Katrina , Bernie Madoff, and a number of other disasters, tragedies and the ills of the world.

    Yes I know your answer is that he sees the big picture or that he moves in mysterious ways, etc. But you beeive that because of your faith. And I don't want to tell you not to have that faith if it comforts you. But please don't tell me that I have to have the same faith. I don't take anything on faith, I prefer things to be tangible. I need evidence to believe in something.
  • Dec 1, 2009, 02:55 PM
    rnrg

    We live in an age where there are no consequences for anyone's wrongdoings. A slap on the hand should be sufficient! This line of thinking does not promote "healthy living," but only a lifestyle of self fulfillment. So what if we destroy, deprave, degrade, deceive, debase, debauch, or defraud another human being. Is it really so bad? According to God, there is a problem.

    Our world is filled with demons with Satan being the great leader and deceiver. He is the epitome of evil. Wherever evil is, there is Satan or his demons. The demons were also present during the flood. Genesis chapter 6 tells of man's wickedness and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Do you still think God should have spared them? If you know the story, Noah actually preached for about 120 years while building the ark. Everyone still refused to listen, and God was not going to force anyone on the ark. He wanted them to come because they loved and tusted Him. First Peter 3:20 says "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." Longsuffering is only one of many words that describes a very patient and loving God. One hundred and twenty years is a very long time. Enough time that everyone including those that were small and young would have been able to hear about the flood that God was going to send if the people did not repent. As you know, they did not repent and come aboard the ark, and all except Noah's family CHOSE to die instead of accept God and LIVE.

    God is the only true and fair Judge. Because I know Him personally, I don't question his Judgements. They are right because they are based on His Truth. However, we can't say that about our earthly judges or law. We do have man-made laws that are to protect its people. God clearly tells us to obey those in authority (man's law) if it lines up with His Law. So if our law states that anyone that murders another will lose his life (after a fair trial), should we not uphold our law even though it sounds harsh. What message do we sent out to those that abuse our system, if no one is ever punished or suffers the consequences of their actions. I do not like the thoughts of anyone losing their life, but my thoughts are why would anyone take another's life, knowing that if caught they would lose their life. We have created a society that believes that no crime is too big or bad enough. Telling a criminal to be good is only creating a fearless group of renegades with no hesitation to go back out and finish what they started. You may be sure that Satan and his demons are only too happy to fill their minds with ideas.

    I have learned that for me that if there is
    No God then no peace, but if you
    Know God then you know peace.
  • Dec 1, 2009, 03:21 PM
    Maggie 3
    Scott, I wrote this for the christians that are questioning God for killing people.
    We have no right to complain if our trust is in Him.
    It is the devil or satan that came to steal kill, and destroy. Satan is spirit and
    Puts evil thoughts in our mind and tries to control us. Some people
    Believe what they hear and follow him. Jesus came that we might have life and have it more abundantly. We learn truth from Gods Word. It's all a choice we make.
    It is good to know truth sets people free, so we can live in peace and joy if
    We choose, and I choose God and His peace.

    Maggie 3
  • Dec 1, 2009, 03:25 PM
    ScottGem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rnrg View Post
    I believe God is the only true and fair Judge. Because I believe I know Him personally, I don't question his Judgements. I believe They are right because they are based on His Truth.

    I have learned that for me that if there is
    no God then no peace, but if you
    know God then you know peace.

    I have only a small quibble with your post. Please note what I have added in red and emphasized in bold. As long as you qualify your statements as representing your beliefs then I have problems with it.
  • Dec 1, 2009, 03:33 PM
    ScottGem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Maggie 3 View Post
    Scott, I wrote this for the christians that are questioning God for killing people.
    We have no right to complain if our trust is in Him.
    It is the devil or satan that came to steal kill, and destroy. Satan is spirit and
    puts evil thoughts in our mind and tries to control us. Some people
    believe what they hear and follow him. Jesus came that we might have life and have it more abundantly. We learn truth from Gods Word. It's all a choice we make.
    It is good to know truth sets people free, so we can live in peace and joy if
    we choose, and I choose God and His peace.

    Maggie 3

    Why just write for Christians?

    If trusting in God means you have no right to complain, then that's just another reason to NOT put blind faith in a God.

    And finding "truth" in God's words is just another way of saying that you have faith in those words. But truth is something that can be proven, not something that you just believe on faith.

    And, if "god is in control" as you said earlier, then how do you have choice? The two concepts are contrdictory.
  • Dec 1, 2009, 08:11 PM
    arcura
    ScottGem,
    God is in control according to His wishes.
    But He gave us free will so He does not interfere with what we decide to do rightly or wrongly.
    In that case we are in control of our lives.
    Yes belief in God's truth is a matter of faith.
    But since He is the ultimate in wisdom, love, mercy, and all His ather attributes God's truth MUST be true.
    So we Chrsitiansd believe.
    Peace and kindnerss,
    Fred
  • Dec 1, 2009, 09:20 PM
    ScottGem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by arcura View Post
    ScottGem,
    God is in control according to His wishes.
    But He gave us free will so He does not interfere with what we decide to do rightly or wrongly.
    In that case we are in control of our lives.
    Yes belief in God's truth is a matter of faith.
    But since He is the ultimate in wisdom, love, mercy, and all His ather attributes God's truth MUST be true.
    So we Chrsitiansd believe.
    Peace and kindnerss,
    Fred


    Sorry Fred, but that's just sophistry. If we have true free will then he isn't in control. If he can step in and change what happens "according to his wishes", then we don't have free will. You can't have it both ways.

    And he's the ultimate only if you believe he is, therefore, his truth imust be true only if you have faith in it. But the definition of truth is something real anf factual. Ergo, truth cannot be based on faith.

    Faith can be a wonderful thing. Clearly it brings comfort to many, many people. I am happy for anyone who finds that comfort in faith. But I need to call it as I see it. And that religion is not based on truth, its based on faith. If you want to promote your religion or any religion for that matter, you need to promote it on the basis of what it does for you. Not on it being some all encompassing truth that you can't prove only accept as a matter of faith. As soon as you start arguing that your religion represents the one and only truth you lose me completely.

    In other threads I spoke about my beliefs as a deist. I those threads I explained why I am a deist and why it satisfies my spirtual side. At no point did I argue that deism was THE way to believe, only that it was the right way for ME to believe.
  • Dec 2, 2009, 12:45 AM
    arcura

    ScottGem,
    I told you what I believed and why.
    Call it what you wish but that is my belief.
    Our gift of free will from God causes much grief in the world and much happiness in how it is used.
    If you are deist then I think that you might believe that God is a supreme being.
    As such He is the only true truth.
    Being a supreme being make God perfect and infinite in all His attributes.
    Now, what are the attributes of the God in which you believe?
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred

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