There were changes made by the body and blood of Christ. However there are questions in understanding how the ordinances, the law, the statutes, and the commandments might have shown these changes, and how they are effective today.

What do you believe was established ? "He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. "

The following permitted by the Strongs Concordance gives the Hebrew and Greek word meaning behind the English word written in scripture for ordinances, law, statutes, and commandments.

ordinances = what is legal, proper, fitting, custom, behavior
law = body of prophetic teaching
commandments = code of wisdom, what is prohabited by the precept of God
statutes = civil enactments prescribed by God

sndbay,
I believe that Jesus Christ established as He said "a new covenant"
It was/is the covenant of salvation via His flesh and blood.
Jesus did give us some new commandments such as "love one another as I have loved you."
Also, in regard to the new covenant of His flesh and blood he told us to eat and drink it "for my flesh is food indeed and my blood is drink indeed".
Those could be considered to be statutes, but I think they are more.
If done properly it is called "The Eucharist" and it IS a Holy Sacrament.
He also said that of those who do as He said he will "raise them up on the last day".
Peace and kindness,
Fred

The Mosaic law? The sabbath? The Ten Commandments?

rockie100,
I do believe that those were not left for us by Jesus during His ministry here.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Hebrews Chapter 10:

For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, not the very image of the things, by the selfsame sacrifices which they offer continually every year, can never make the comers thereunto perfect. For then they would have ceased to be offered: because the worshippers once cleansed should have no conscience of sin any longer But in them there is made a commemoration of sins every year: For it is impossible that with the blood of oxen and goats sin should be taken away. Wherefore, when he cometh into the world he saith: Sacrifice and oblation thou wouldest not: but a body thou hast fitted to me. Holocausts for sin did not please thee. Then said I: Behold I come: in the head of the book it is written of me: that I should do thy will, O God. 8 In saying before, Sacrifices, and oblations, and holocausts for sin thou wouldest not, neither are they pleasing to thee, which are offered according to the law.

Before examining the meaning of verse 9 we must see the context which we derive from verses 1 through 8. (You can actually start in chapter 9 - a reference to the Temple.) This is a reference to the law of sacrifices, the Old Law, the Law of Moses. Paul is telling us that the blood of the goat or oxen cleansed, but not perfectly, remitting sin. But, if the Jews had been perfect sacrifice there would have been no need for Christ’s redemptive sacrifice. This sacrifice can remove sin because it is a sacrifice , and left “no conscience of sin” an offering did not please the Jew. Then came Christ who did the will of God, fulfilling the prophecy of the sacrificial lamb. This is the sacrifice that produces manna from God, not a sacrifice repeated but done never ceases, one in the same sacrifice of Christ’s dying for our sins. (Cf. CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 17 on Hebrews (Chrysostom))

Then said I: Behold, I come to do thy will, O God: He taketh away the first, that he may establish that which followeth.

Paul states clearly to the Jew, the old obligatory sacrificial law is taken away and replaced, a new sacrificial law which is consumed, an eternal continuation of the perfect sacrifice of the Lamb that consumes us, bite by bite, manna from God, the Holy Eucharist, the Real Presence of God. Christ keeps his promise to be always present with the faithful.

JoeT

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

sndbay,
I believe that Jesus Christ established as He said "a new covenant"
It was/is the covenant of salvation via His flesh and blood.

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Yes this is true as written. The old covenant that was did vanished, and Jesus is the mediator of the new.

Hebrew 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Jesus did give us some new commandments such as "love one another as I have loved you."

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The word of God is not new but was made flesh in Christ Jesus.(So that is the newness that came by Christ) The grace of God given and shown in us shines as grace for grace.

1 John 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.


What was the new came in Chirst Jesus, and is in us if we love HIM and follow HIM in the light (believe)

1 John 2:8-9-10 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.



Those that do not believe in Christ Jesus, do not believe in the new. They do not walk in rightoeusness, but in darkness

1 John 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.



The new in commandment is that which is believed in Christ Jesus, and sent to us. Because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

1 John 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Also, in regard to the new covenant of His flesh and blood he told us to eat and drink it "for my flesh is food indeed and my blood is drink indeed".

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But again it is the same spiritual meat and drink because it is the old commandment that was the word from the beginning sent new in HIS flesh that dwelled amoung us.

1 Corinthians 10:3-4 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Those could be considered to be statutes, but I think they are more.
If done properly it is called "The Eucharist" and it IS a Holy Sacrament.
He also said that of those who do as He said he will "raise them up on the last day".
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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No because the statute was the civil enactments of the law commanded.

The priest was changed, and Christ was made the high priest. We acknowledge in assurance that Christ has done everything properly.

The word written clearly say take eat and drink in remembrance of Christ. The cup of the new testament is the new commandment (old from the beginning made new in flesh given to us once done)

Hebrew 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1 Corinthians 11:24-25 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.

~Grace be with you

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Paul states clearly to the Jew, the old obligatory sacrificial law is taken away and replaced, a new sacrificial law whic is consumed, an eternal continuation of the perfect sacrifice of the Lamb that consumes us, bite by bite, manna from God, the Holy Eucharist, the Real Presence of God. Christ keeps his promise to be always present with the faithful.

JoeT

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According to (Numbers 9:13) the legal custom and behavior for passover, known as the ordinance for passover was appointed to a season. It was not proper to neglect this ordinance, and the failure of this would result in consequence to bear a sinful soul.

According to (Exodus 16:4) God proves mankind, and it would be done like rain falling as a feeding of bread from heaven, gathered daily by a certain rate to determine the out come of how each man would follow the law of God ( the schoolmaster )

One older yet important teaching to learn was reference in ( Lev 6:9) as the burnt offering that the Levite priest followed. (The civil enactment/statutes were done by the priesthood by command of the law) This was the sin offering referenced in (Lev 6:25 Lev 7:1 Lev 7:7 Lev 7:37 ) What is important to understand is the law is a teaching, given to mankind in aid of rightoeusness. God has offered the teaching of the law to protect mankind from earthly harm and destruction. Those destructive things here on earth that can tempt man in their desires of heart is known as what man loves to do. So what the law of God brought mankind was the teaching for proper behavior, proper custom, that fitting to do, and that which is considered legal by God.

(James 4:17) will tell us, anything done which is known as not proper is sin.

According to (Genesis 26:5) Abraham obeyed the voice of God by following the commandments, the law, and the statutes. So they have more then just the teaching of God in the law that protects them, they have the ordinances that shows them what is proper behavior, and they also have the commandments, and the statutes.

The commandments were given as the code of wisdom. (Exodus 34:28 ) tells us that the covenant, and the commandment were written in stone. The commandments example to mankind what man does that is sinful in the eyes of God. However if we love God and obey the voice of God, then we are as God found Abraham to be in faithfulness to God.

The final detail today is in understanding that we should be faithful to God. We are to hear the voice of Christ, we are to follow in HIS footsteps in righteousness. And we can do this because the statutes that were the civil enactments prescribed by God, have changed.
The statute is spoken of in (Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.)

The enactments/statutes that once were done by the priesthood in the law, changed to the likeness of Melchisedec, whom was appointed the higher priest, Christ Jesus. The civil enactment was final in the blood of Christ.

Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant.


According to scripture the ordinance of passover would be the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ ( 1 Corinthians 5:7). And what was once done by the priesthood was finish once and for all by Christ Jesus by one offering HE perfected forever mankind that are sanctified. (Hebrew 10:14)

Noted:

Hebrew 10:16-17-18 Where of the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

That higher priest over the house of God is Christ Jesus

Hebrews 10:20-21-22 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rockie100

The Mosaic law? The sabbath? The Ten Commandments?

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Rockie100,

I see the question mark behind each, but you are correct to believe each were brought to the final civil enactment/statues in Christ and HIS blood.

1. Yes the final statutes in the blood of Christ brought fulfillment to the law.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

2. Yes the final statutes in the blood of Christ brought us REST in Christ and is the holy sabbath. For God rested from HIS work, and we enter HIS REST.

Hebrew 4:3-4-5 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.And in this placeagain, If they shall enter into my rest.


3. Yes the final statutes in the blood of Christ brought us the new commandment in HIM, Walk in HIS footsteps.


John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

1 John 2:7-8 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

2 John 9:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.


~Grace be with you always

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

And what was once done by the priesthood was finish once and for all by Christ Jesus by one offering HE perfected forever mankind that are sanctified. (Hebrew 10:14)

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Sndbay, I compliment you on a fantastic post.

The one questionable portion is this statement I quoted which implies that Jesus did away with the Priesthood.

But Jesus didn't. It is impossible that He would.

Remember you also quoted the following:

Hebrews 10:1
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Hebrews 7:12
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

You see, Jesus didn't eliminate the Ministerial Priesthood. In the Old Testament, the Levites fulfilled that role. The Levitical Priesthood is one of the shadows of the good things to come. Therefore, the Ministerial Priesthood of the New Covenant is the good thing to come which cast the shadow that was fulfilled in the Levitical Priesthood.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria,
I'm glad that you pointed that our so well.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

There were changes made by the body and blood of Christ. However there are questions in understanding how the ordinances, the law, the statutes, and the commandments might have shown these changes, and how they are effective today.

What do you believe was established ? "He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. "

---

A New Covenant in the Blood of Christ.

I've read some of the answers and I believe one of the most important changes has been overlooked.

Baptism.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

There is nothing in the Old Testament which can be compared to this Gift. Circumcision comes the closest. Circumcision, the sign of the Covenant by which Jewish boys were proclaimed members of the family of God.

Yet, this sign was not administered to Jewish girls. Nor was the administration of this sign a washing of sin from the soul nor a regeneration of the person to whom it was administered.

In Baptism, we are given the gift of the Holy Spirit, we are INCORPORATED into the Body of Christ, we are forgiven of our sins, washed of Original Sin and born again (regenerated) as new creatures in Christ.

Although the Jews did practice a form of washing which they also called "baptism", their baptism was not effective in accomplishing what the Baptism of Jesus Christ accomplished.

Acts 19:3-6 (King James Version)

3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria,
But baptisim properly done is by water and spirit in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Did Paul do that or just laid his hands on them?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

“There were changes made by the body and blood of Christ”

Please explain what changes, when they were made, and who made them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Sndbay, I compliment you on a fantastic post.

The one questionable portion is this statement I quoted which implies that Jesus did away with the Priesthood.

But Jesus didn't. It is impossible that He would.

---

What was done away with was the priest daily ministering and offering sacrifices, which can never take away sins. It was not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats could take away sins.

BECAUSE those sacrifices left a remembrance of sin:
Hebrew 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

As (Hebrew 10:1) teaches those sacrifices offered year by year continually never would and never could make the member perfect.

The law = (body of prophetic teaching) that was, was only a shadow (of) the good things to come. Because the blood of Jesus was the final civil enactment that changed and ended the statutes = (enactment) of blood sacrifices which the OT law had taught, and commanded to be enforced.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Remember you also quoted the following:

Hebrews 10:1
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

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YES the good things to come did come in Christ, and the sacrifice offering that did not make members perfect, ended because "The Word of God" teaches that God took no pleasure in these offering of sin.
Hebrew 10:5-6 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Established NOW in Christ

Hebrew 10: 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

SANCTIFIED in the blood of Christ (to separate from profane things and dedicate to God, to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin, to purify internally by renewing of the soul)

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrew 10:12 But this man, after HE had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Hebrew 10:14 For by one offering HE hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified

The blood of Christ became the new law and covenant, the Holy Spirit witnessed, And members sins and iniquities will HE remember no more. (Hebrew 10:14-17)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by De Maria

But Jesus didn't. It is impossible that He would.

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Possible in Christ

Hebrews 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Hebrews 7:12
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

You see, Jesus didn't eliminate the Ministerial Priesthood. In the Old Testament, the Levites fulfilled that role. The Levitical Priesthood is one of the shadows of the good things to come. Therefore, the Ministerial Priesthood of the New Covenant is the good thing to come which cast the shadow that was fulfilled in the Levitical Priesthood.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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We NOW boldly enter through the veil by the blood of Christ, because HE did SANCTIFIED us, by a new and living way.

Christ is the high priest of the house of God
(Hebrew 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God)

Note this as a question:
Hebrew 7:11" If " therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Note the oath of priesthood being made, and the commandment of statues being disannulling = (abolition, disannulling, put away, rejection) and changed for the new way, new covenant, the better way.

Hebrew 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

Hebrew 7:20-21 And inasmuch as not without an oath HE was made priest: (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by HIM that said unto HIM, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec)

Hebrew 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.



Priesthood statutes ended

Hebrew 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death


Christ high priest forever

Hebrew 7:24-25-26 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore HE is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by HIM, seeing HE ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this HE did once, when HE offered up HIMSELF.


The word of oath and withness of the HOLY SPIRIT that changed the priesthood to Set Christ on the throne as LORD of LORD, KINGS of KINGS forever.. amen

Hebrew 7:27 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.


~Grace be with you all

As De Maria pointed out the priesthood was changed.
It was changed from the Old Testament version to then New under Christ as THE high priest.
They were called presbyters (teachers), that is priests (in English).
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

As De Maria pointed out the priesthood was changed.
It was changed from the Old Testament version to then New under Christ as THE high priest.
They were called presbyters (teachers), that is priests (in English).
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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As you can view in the Quote,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Therefore, the Ministerial Priesthood of the New Covenant is the good thing to come which cast the shadow that was fulfilled in the Levitical Priesthood.

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The QUOTE says as you can view, that the Ministerial Priesthood was the good thing to come .. I disagree
The Catholic church teaches that Christians as a "priesthood" were what Peter supposedly called the Ministerial Priesthood in reference (1 Peter 2:9 "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people set apart." )



I believe the Word of God clearly says the OT law having a shadow of the good thing to come, is further saying that by Christ and the cup of the NT all was fulfilled. Christ was the good thing to come, the better way, the new way. (Hebrew 9:11)


Thead: Was The Blood of Christ The Final Statute?


~in Christ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by De Maria

A New Covenant in the Blood of Christ.

I've read some of the answers and I believe one of the most important changes has been overlooked.

Baptism.

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I agree Baptism was changed by the blood of Christ. As we are crucified with Christ, we also are buried with Christ in Baptism. And then able to raise in that death free from sin, and walk in newness of life.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

sndbay,
Please keep in mindn that duringn His ministry Jesus was God the Son in both flesh and blood.
So... therefore any statute He established was of fkleash and BLOOD.
Baoptism does fit that mold.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

sndbay,
Please keep in mindn that duringn His ministery Jesus was God the Son in both flesh and blood.
So...therefore any statute He established was of fkleash and BLOOD.
Baoptism does fit that mold.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Fred I am not sure what your point is?

The thread question? Was The Blood of Christ The Final Statute?
I believe it was, and that is why we do not have testimony in command of statutes in the NT.
Christ is the passover Lamb, and we do not sacrifice HIM again. God's work is done, and we have REST in Christ.
We can NOW enter that which is within the veil ( Hebrew 6:19-20 )

John 3:38 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into HIS hand.

Every Word of Truth

Hebrews 9:11-12 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Hebrews 9:13-14 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause HE is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Hebrew 9:24-25-26 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us Nor yet that HE should offer Himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

~Grace be with you

sndbay,
Yes, that is true, Jesus Christ's sacrifice was once and for all, but the statute of the New Covenant of flesh and blood goes on now from the time Jesus established it and He said that the consecrated bread and wine IS His flesh and blood.
I believe what Jesus said.
So therefore any commandment He gave us during His ministry here was of His living and dying flesh and blood.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

sndbay,
Yes, that is true, Jesus Christ's sacrifice was once and for all, but the statute of the New Covenant of flesh and blood goes on now from the time Jesus established it and He said that the consecrated bread and wine IS His flesh and blood.

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Fred the New Covenant remains law in body of prophetic teaching . Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant. The same spiritual meat and drink because it is the old commandment that was the word from the beginning sent new in HIS flesh that dwelled amoung us.

Hebrew 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel

There is no continued enactment of blood sacrifice because the Blood of Christ was complete and worthy in sanctifying us.

Further understand by reviewing what was suffered by Christ would example the truth. The statutes were not suffered to be continued. That is because we acknowledge we are sanctified through HIS offering once done! (Those that believe in HIS worthiness)

Hebrew 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all


Fred it is man's teaching concerning consecrated bread and wine, not Jesus. In the Roman Catholic Church the word Consecration denotes those actions by which the Eucharist and the wine are transformed in to the body and blood of Christ. In Orthodox Churches like the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Eastern Catholic Church Consecration is the response from the divine to the Epiclesis where the priest calls upon the Holy Ghost.

This is not written in scripture. Please referance any scripture that speaks of consecration, or that the enactment of blood sacrifices need to be offered continuely as they were before.

I believe what was written as the WORD of GOD. And HIS Word that I have referanced says it was not suffered to continue.


~Grace be with you all

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

De Maria,
But baptisim properly done is by water and spirit in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Did Paul do that or just laid his hands on them?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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He baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Then he performed what we call the Sacrament of Confirmation them by laying hands on them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

There is no continued enactment of blood sacrifice because the Blood of Christ was complete and worthy in sanctifying us.

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Scripture condemns them who miss the Assembly precisely because there is an enactment of Jesus' Blood Sacrifice during the Mass:
Heb 10
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

And as is plain in the fact that we keep Christ's commandment:

Luke 22:19
And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1 Corinthians 10:16
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

! Cor 11 25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

Quote:

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Fred it is man's teaching concerning consecrated bread and wine, not Jesus.

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1 Corinthians 10:16
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

The blessing and the breaking are the "consecration".

God bless you,

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

SANCTIFIED in the blood of Christ (to separate from profane things and dedicate to God, to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin, to purify internally by renewing of the soul)

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How are you sanctified by the Blood of Christ? We are sanctified by His Blood when we partake of Holy Eucharist:
1 Corinthians 10:16
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

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We NOW boldly enter through the veil by the blood of Christ, because HE did SANCTIFIED us, by a new and living way.

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Yes. By Holy Communion. That is why missing the Mass is a mortal sin:
Hebrews 10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

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Christ is the high priest of the house of God
(Hebrew 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God)

Note this as a question:
Hebrew 7:11" If " therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Note the oath of priesthood being made, and the commandment of statues being disannulling = (abolition, disannulling, put away, rejection) and changed for the new way, new covenant, the better way.

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Exactly! The Old Priesthood abolished the New established.

Note that the shadow is cast.

Jesus is High Priest in heaven. He casts the shadow which produced the High Priests who entered beyond the veil into the presence of God.

The priests who ministered in the outer court , the Levites, were produced by the shadow cast by the ministerial priests.

And our lay priesthood of believers cast the shadow which produced the Nation of Israel.

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Priesthood statutes ended

Hebrew 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death

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That is speaking of the Levitical priesthood.
11If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

But that priesthood was done away and replaced by the good things which came, the priesthood of Jesus Christ.

12For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Note that the priesthood was changed, not done away.

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~Grace be with you all

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And to you!

De Maria,
Thanks for your answer to my question.
Also thanks for your excellent answers to sndbay.
By the way I went to your website at De Maria and began to read some of what was there.
You dealing with evolution and the Big Bank theory were very good.
I must go back and absorb the remainder of the subjects cover there.
I wonder how many here have experienced that web site.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Scripture condemns them who miss the Assembly precisely because there is an enactment of Jesus' Blood Sacrifice during the Mass:
Heb 10
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

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This was not an assembly of Mass missed. (Hebrews 10:28-29) is teaching how anyone that might despise the New Covenant law set in the Blood of Christ, as some were known to do with Moses law of the old covenant.
That they would die a punishment of greater sorer. For anyone to think the blood of Christ was unholy thing, or unvalued, unworthy, unable to scanctify, and despite or insult the Spirit of grace.

Christ having built HIS house of many members has more honour then the house built of hands , because every house that is built actually is built by God who built all things. Christ is a Son over His own house, and we rejoice in being of HIS house.

If people do not hear HIS voice, when satan tempts them. It does grieve God as it did when Moses people err in their heart.

God sware in HIS wrath, that they will not enter into HIS REST.
(Hebrews 3:3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11)

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Originally Posted by De Maria

The blessing and the breaking are the "consecration".

God bless you,

Sincerely,

De Maria

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I believe Christ told HIS disciples to feed HIS sheep. What is fed to the many members is the cup of the New Testament, (1 Corinthinas 11:25) and that is what was suffered on the cross to bear record both blood and water (John 19:34-36) We are able to gather together in HIS name, as few as two or three, knowing HE is with us (Matthew 18:20) To be one in the body of the bread (Romans 12:4 Col 3:15 )

NOTE: Abolished even the law contained in ordinances (what is legal, proper, fitting, custom, behavior)

Eph 2:15-16 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby



So the communion in the body and blood of Christ is the embodiment and proof of fellowship with Christ = YES we have that blessing in Christ

1 Corinthinas 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

1 Corinthians 10:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.


~Grace be with you all this Thanksgiving Day

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Originally Posted by sndbay

This was not an assembly of Mass missed.

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Heb 10
24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

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(Hebrews 10:28-29) is teaching how anyone that might despise the New Covenant law set in the Blood of Christ, as some were known to do with Moses law of the old covenant.

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That is partially true. However, you are ignoring that one despises the New Covenant Law set in the Blood of Christ by missing the Mass wherein one partakes of the Blood of Christ. Therefore St. Paul goes on to say:

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

The sacrifice to which he refers is the Eucharistic sacrifice. To which sacrifice do you think he was referring since all other sacrifices have been abolished and it is against Reformed doctrine to believe that any person can sacrifice personally in atonement for his own sin?

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That they would die a punishment of greater sorer. For anyone to think the blood of Christ was unholy thing, or unvalued, unworthy, unable to scanctify, and despite or insult the Spirit of grace.

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That isn't the case at all. You have missed the point. St. Paul says:
who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified

The individual who commits this sin may believe that the cup is truly the Blood of Christ and that the bread is truly the Body of Christ. But in willingly missing the Mass, he has put HIMSELF above Christ:

Matthew 10: 37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

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~Grace be with you all this Thanksgiving Day

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And to you as well,

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by arcura

De Maria,
Thanks for your answer to my question.
Also thanks for your excellent answers to sndbay.
By the way I went to your website at De Maria and began to read some of what was there.
You dealing with evolution and the Big Bank theory were very good.
I must go back and absorb the remainder of the subjects cover there.
I wonder how many here have experienced that web site.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

---

Thanks Fred.

You seem like a person thirsty for knowledge. There's a website:
Lighthouse Catholic media

If you purchase anything, please enter compcode 3239.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Heb 10
24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

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DEMaria, the assembling of ourselves does not necessarily mean a religious service in Mass as the traditions of man have presented today
(Hebrews 10:24-25) is the duty to accept exhortation, and goes on warning in view of God being the living God.

Accept Exhortation

We can gather together unto Christ by assembling together with as few as two or three in HIS name. Think back, to what was in those days, how the apostles came to gather. Just as it was shown when Jesus gathered with HIS disciples in one room of a man home that prepared for passover. (Matthew 26:17-19)

Exhortation is written of in 2 Thessalonians.
Note that: 2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him

Note the truth being that : (2 Thessalonies 2:2-3-4) is exhortation negative, the man of sin, and his sinful acts . (2 Thessalonies 2:5-6) was Jesus spoke of remembering all that HE had foretold, and is exhortation postive.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

That is partially true. However, you are ignoring that one despises the New Covenant Law set in the Blood of Christ by missing the Mass wherein one partakes of the Blood of Christ. Therefore St. Paul goes on to say:

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

The sacrifice to which he refers is the Eucharistic sacrifice. To which sacrifice do you think he was referring since all other sacrifices have been abolished and it is against Reformed doctrine to believe that any person can sacrifice personally in atonement for his own sin?

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DEMaria, this is on the general assumption given to you by the Catholic church in thinking that men are sinful, and remain in their sin unless they come to Mass. Facts are that the Catholic religion teaches that the many members are sinners. And because of the teacing of purgatory, you assume your soul on earth are not free from sin. The Catholic religion follows a teaching of a different rock by the name of Peter. That rock is what you believe as reveal truth.

I follow ONE Lord in the name of Christ, and HE is my Rock revealed in Love for HIM. So you see there is a difference between our general assumptions. I believe in the Spirit of grace. I trust MY Rock=Christ as the revealed truth given to me by our Father through the HOLY SPIRIT. I believe we were set free from sin by the blood of Christ. And when we confess our ONE Faith, in the begotten Son of God as ONE Lord, we are sancified in Christ. We once were the sheep going astray but NOW are returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of our souls. When confessed faith is within the heart, we come forward in the spirit of Christ to ONE Baptism.

Scripture says ONCE to die, (Hebrew 9:27) I confess that once to die is with Christ on the cross, and followed in being raised in Baptism to newness of life. The other choice is death with satan. If we believe scripture as (Word of God), the bread of life, HIS flesh, then you are fed by Christ in hearing HIS voice. (John 4:14)

I rejoice and boast in the law of Faith. (Romans 3:27)

So if we know not to sin and decide to sin, we are in trouble walking with satan.
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Sometimes we just do not know the difference, and are asleep. That is why we are told to watch, and submit ourselves to God, resisting the devil, and he will flee from us. In the name of Christ Jesus, Amen

We were also told not to call man common or unclean because our Father has called all. It becomes choice then in free will to follow Chirst .


~May you be all that God created you to be, in Christ

What truth should be recognized in these scriptures of the OT, Numbers, and Exodus according to the NEW COVENANT in Christ ?

From what the previous posting have shown, the statutes were done away with becase Christ was the one final offering of scarifice for our sin. (Hebrew 7:11)(Hebrews 7:23) And the ordinances of the commandment law were abolished in HIS flesh (Eph 2:15-16)]

According to (Numbers 9:13) OT, the legal custom and behavior for passover, known as the ordinance for passover was appointed to a season. It was not proper to neglect this ordinance, and the failure of this would result in consequence to bear a sinful soul.

According to (Exodus 16:4) OT, God proves mankind, and it would be done like rain falling as a feeding of bread from heaven, gathered daily by a certain rate to determine the out come of how each man would follow the law of God ( the schoolmaster )

I believe our daily bread remains in the Word of God, and is the revealed truth that comes to us from our Father, by the Comforter in the HOLY SPIRIT. That no private interpretation comes from man (2 Peter 1:20-21) And that Christ will increase faith when your duty as servants is fruitful, and not if you are unprofitable. (Luke 17:5)(Matthew 25:30)

~in Christ

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Originally Posted by sndbay

DEMaria, the assembling of ourselves does not necessarily mean a religious service in Mass as the traditions of man have presented today

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It is Tradition of God which dates back to before Christ.

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(Hebrews 10:24-25) is the duty to accept exhortation, and goes on warning in view of God being the living God.

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The problem is that you are reading it according to your tradition which is unfortunately of man and not of God.

Accept Exhortation

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We can gather together unto Christ by assembling together with as few as two or three in HIS name. Think back, to what was in those days, how the apostles came to gather. Just as it was shown when Jesus gathered with HIS disciples in one room of a man home that prepared for passover. (Matthew 26:17-19)

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It is the same today. Where there are a few of us, we gather a few. Where there are many, we gather many. Where there is no money for a building we gather in homes.

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Exhortation is written of in 2 Thessalonians.
Note that: 2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him

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So is gathering.

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Note the truth being that : (2 Thessalonies 2:2-3-4) is exhortation negative, the man of sin, and his sinful acts . (2 Thessalonies 2:5-6) was Jesus spoke of remembering all that HE had foretold, and is exhortation postive.

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I have no idea what you mean. But the verse speaks of "gathering" unto Him.

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DEMaria, this is on the general assumption given to you by the Catholic church in thinking that men are sinful, and remain in their sin unless they come to Mass. Facts are that the Catholic religion teaches that the many members are sinners. And because of the teacing of purgatory, you assume your soul on earth are not free from sin. The Catholic religion follows a teaching of a different rock by the name of Peter. That rock is what you believe as reveal truth.

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I can see that you don't understand what the Catholic Church teaches.
DEMaria, this is on the general assumption given to you by the Catholic church in thinking that men are sinful,

It is Protestants who teach that men are "Totally depraved" and thus totally sinful. The Catholic Church teaches that men are made in the image of God, and are by nature good, but our nature is fallen. But not incurably so. The Saints which the Church canonizes are examples of men who have overcome their fallen nature on earth.

and remain in their sin unless they come to Mass.

According to Hebrews 10, a man who misses the Mass sins against the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. Something similar is said in another verse:
1 Corinthians 11:27
Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

This would not be a problem if it were a mere symbol. One would not be guilty of killing Jesus again if a mere symbol were defamed.

Heb 6
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Facts are that the Catholic religion teaches that the many members are sinners.

This is the teaching of Scripture. Do you not understand the teaching of the weeds in the wheat?

And because of the teacing of purgatory, you assume your soul on earth are not free from sin.

Purgatory teaches that some will die in an imperfect state of grace. Do you know anyone who is at anytime perfect, without blemish. It is Luther who claims that we are "snow covered dunghills". Therefore it is your Reformed tradition which teaches that men are sinners as your tradition is descended from Luther and Calvin (Total Depravity).

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The Catholic religion follows a teaching of a different rock by the name of Peter.

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A Rock of Christ's choosing. It is He who renamed Simon.
John 1:42
And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

That rock is what you believe as reveal truth.

It is in black and white in Scripture:
Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

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I follow ONE Lord in the name of Christ, and HE is my Rock revealed in Love for HIM.

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I follow those whom Jesus appointed to be my leaders as Scripture prescribes:
Hebrews 13:7
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

In accepting them, I accept Christ:
Matt 10
40He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

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So you see there is a difference between our general assumptions.

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Agreed. First and foremost is the idea of Sola Scriptura which is not in the Bible and thus by its own criteria proves itself false.

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I believe in the Spirit of grace.

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As do I.

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I trust MY Rock=Christ as the revealed truth given to me by our Father through the HOLY SPIRIT.

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As do I. It is because I trust Christ that I trust those whom He installed over me.

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I believe we were set free from sin by the blood of Christ.

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As do I. That is why I partake of that Blood in every Mass:
1 Corinthians 10:16
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

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And when we confess our ONE Faith, in the begotten Son of God as ONE Lord, we are sancified in Christ.

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But more profoundly blessed when we unite ourselves to Him body and soul in the Holy Eucharist:
John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

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We once were the sheep going astray but NOW are returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of our souls. When confessed faith is within the heart, we come forward in the spirit of Christ to ONE Baptism.

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But it is in the Holy Eucharist that we proclaim His Gospel by our actions:
1 Corinthians 11:26
For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

You see, you still await Christ's second coming. But we experience His Parousia in every Mass:
Matthew 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

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Scripture says ONCE to die, (Hebrew 9:27)

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Yes it does.

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I confess that once to die is with Christ on the cross, and followed in being raised in Baptism to newness of life.

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A very Catholic Teaching which you follow. We also die with Christ on the Cross. A belief for which we are generally unmercifully ridiculed by Protestants.

Now tell me, how do you dies with Christ on the Cross as you aren't really on the Cross with Christ. To us this teaching confirms the efficacy of our suffering for the cleansing of sin. As St. Paul also says:
Colossians 1:24
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

On the Cross, Jesus suffered for us. For whom are you suffering on the Cross?

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The other choice is death with satan. If we believe scripture as (Word of God), the bread of life, HIS flesh, then you are fed by Christ in hearing HIS voice. (John 4:14)

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Certainly. But we are more profoundly fed by His actual Body and Blood in the guise of Bread and Wine.

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I rejoice and boast in the law of Faith. (Romans 3:27)

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It is only by faith that one can see Christ in the Holy Eucharist.

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So if we know not to sin and decide to sin, we are in trouble walking with satan.
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Sometimes we just do not know the difference, and are asleep. That is why we are told to watch, and submit ourselves to God, resisting the devil, and he will flee from us. In the name of Christ Jesus, Amen

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Amen!

[quote]We were also told not to call man common or unclean because our Father has called all. It becomes choice then in free will to follow Chirst .

Amen.

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~May you be all that God created you to be, in Christ

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And you as well. May God continue to bless you with His Word!

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Originally Posted by De Maria

This is the teaching of Scripture. Do you not understand the teaching of the weeds in the wheat?

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I trust in Christ that I do. (Matthew13:24-25) The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

Matthew 13:9 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Mark 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

You see, you still await Christ's second coming. But we experience His Parousia in every Mass:
Matthew 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

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Yes I do keep watch for the second coming of Christ. He has foretold us of HIS coming.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


If the Catholic church teaches you experience the return of Christ in each Mass, then what of the scripture (Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. )

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Originally Posted by De Maria

A very Catholic Teaching which you follow. We also die with Christ on the Cross. A belief for which we are generally unmercifully ridiculed by Protestants.

Now tell me, how do you dies with Christ on the Cross as you aren't really on the Cross with Christ. To us this teaching confirms the efficacy of our suffering for the cleansing of sin. As St. Paul also says:
Colossians 1:24
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

On the Cross, Jesus suffered for us. For whom are you suffering on the Cross?

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John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

Do we permit man to give us vinegar when we thrist? We suffer the death of sin or the death with Christ on the cross. When we thirst we drink of the water Christ has offered. The water that is given to us and is in us.

We have to watch carefully to the last word of what is taught by man, just as the Word of God has told us. The word that is sown in our hearts can be taken away if we sleep. We suffer daily at the hands of satan that will immediately take away the word that was sown in our hearts, being then beguiled as Eve was in the garden, if we do not watch to stay awake. This is the suffering we do daily(to walk as Christ walked in righteousness), and as Paul wrote gladly willing to die daily.(with Christ and not with satan)

John 19:34-35 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

And you as well. May God continue to bless you with His Word!

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~in Christ

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Do you know anyone who is at anytime perfect, without blemish.

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I can discern that you don't believe that is possible.

When unity as one with Christ having the spirit, we are made perfect and without blemish. It is to hold stedfast in the fullness of Christ, by ONE Faith ONE Lord ONE Baptism, and ONE God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ

Eph 4:21 If so be that ye have heard HIM, and have been taught by HIM, as the truth is in Jesus

Eph 4: 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

DEMaria, I trust in Christ, that our mortal bodies are quicken by HIS Spirit and will dwell within us, if we believe. This is the newness of life (ONE Baptism), while we walk having the spirit of Christ.(ONE Lord) We are able to walk in righteousness. (ONE Faith)

But as the parable of the wine bottle tells us. The old is not mixed with the NEW or it will spoil and perish. And some will not willing drink of the NEW because they desire the old. (Luke 5:39)

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I believe the righteousness of the law can be fulfilled in us, the royal law, the law of ONE Faith. (Romans 8:4 James 2:8 Romans 3:27)


~Grace be with you all


John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

Revel 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

The Catholic religion follows a teaching of a different rock by the name of Peter. That rock is what you believe as reveal truth.

I follow ONE Lord in the name of Christ, and HE is my Rock revealed in Love for HIM. So you see there is a difference between our general assumptions. I believe in the Spirit of grace. I trust MY Rock=Christ as the revealed truth given to me by our Father through the HOLY SPIRIT.

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Sndbay, if you really trust your Rock=Christ then you would also trust the rock that the Catholic religion follows, i.e. Peter, for Jesus said

Matthew 16
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Peter is the rock that Jesus built his church upon and Jesus told Peter that his decisions will be upheld in heaven so why do you deny the authority of Peter and the Catholic Church?

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Originally Posted by elscarta

Peter is the rock that Jesus built his church upon and Jesus told Peter that his decisions will be upheld in heaven so why do you deny the authority of Peter and the Catholic Church?

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What was unyeilding about Peter was his love for Christ. (John 21:15) so Peter was told feed the sheep.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

I have no doubt of authority given to Peter because of his confessed love in Christ Jesus.

It would agree with the rendered confession in (1 Timothy 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession)

And a profession to his authority in being (1 Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.)

However it is the confession that laid the foundation to which Christ referred, and not to Peter himself.

Peter was neither the foundation nor the builder, because none other then Christ as written in (1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.)

The Rock immovable, the Messiah as being the Son of the living God who is the foretold "foundation stone"
(Isa 28:15 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.)

It is love for Christ Jesus that the gate of hell shall not prevail against. And given is the keys of the kingdom known to us in the Key of David.

For the power to open, Christ has the keys of Hades, Peter was given the keys of the Kingdom on earth, The power Peter exercised in Act 2 in Isreal and Act 10 among the Gentiles.

The power was given to others as written in (Matthew 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven)
You must read the examples given.

John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

And authority exercised in (Acts 5:1 thr) (Acts 5:11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things)

~in Christ

Hear His voice before making a lie out of what Christ foretold to HIS disciples.Who sits on the right or left hand of Christ?
(Matthew 20:23 & Mark 10:37)

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Originally Posted by sndbay

However it is the confession that laid the foundation to which Christ referred, and not to Peter himself.

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Jesus changed Simon's name to Peter(which means rock/stone) so the word "rock" in Matthew 16:18 refers to Simon/Peter not to his confession. Jesus did not call Simon's confession "rock" but Simon himself!

God rarely changes the names of people in the Bible; Abram, Sarai, and Jacob are the only other ones that I can recall) Each time it was to signify a new direction in their lives, a new mission. So when Jesus changed Simon's name to Peter he was singling out Peter and giving him a new mission.

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Peter was neither the foundation nor the builder, because none other then Christ as written in (1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.)

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No one is claiming that Peter is the foundation stone, just the first of the stones to be laid upon the foundation stone of Christ. Nor does anyone claim that Peter is the builder, but rather the foreman put in charge of the workers. This is the new mission and change in direction in Peter's life.

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It is love for Christ Jesus that the gate of hell shall not prevail against.

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I disagree, "it" at the end of the Matthew 16:18 refers to "my church". The love for Christ Jesus is not mentioned in the verse.

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For the power to open, Christ has the keys of Hades, Peter was given the keys of the Kingdom on earth, The power Peter exercised in Act 2 in Isreal and Act 10 among the Gentiles.

The power was given to others as written in (Matthew 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.)

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The others that the power was also given to were the Apostles, the first bishops. The College of Bishops of which the Pope is the head is the modern version of the College of Apostles with Peter as their head.

No other Apostle's name was changed by Jesus but Peter and Jesus did not tell any other Apostle to "feed my sheep". This shows that Jesus singled out Peter to give him a special role as head of his church here on Earth.

Now the work of building Christ's Church here on Earth is not finished so there must still be a foreman in charge i.e. the Pope!

elscarta,
I agree with you on most of that, but Jesus did change other name such as he change the name of the tax collector Levi to Mathew.
Also regarding the phrase "the gates of hell will not prevail against it", keep in mind that a gate is a bulwark (barricade) to keep intruders out. The Church's mission is to spiritually enter hell to save, via the flesh and blood of our savior, the souls of everyone destined there, that is all sinners.
Let us hope and pray that it is very successful.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by elscarta

Now the work of building Christ's Church here on Earth is not finished so there must still be a foreman in charge ie the Pope!

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1st Let me say that I believe the church is the body of Christ (Col 1:24)
(Col 2:9-10), (Col 2:17)
And those that believe are the many members that abide in HIM and HIM in them. (Romans 12:5 1 Corinthians 6:15 1 Corinthians 12:27 John 15:4)

The church is the temple that fell and was raised again in three days not made by hands. (Mark 14:58)

Any members of the body that does evil is cut off.
( Matthew 5:3 Mark 2:9 )


This thread is not questioning the greater source of influence leading the world of religion. However I believe Christ was and always will be the Word of God that dwell among us to fulfill scripture as the will of God. HIS voice will always be the influence I follow.

Col 2:12-13 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with HIM through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised HIM from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath He quickened together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses


The work of God was done in Christ and we REST in Him.


For information and as an example to what you follow, perhaps it is the strife among the disciple that took place and what was their heart desired. They wanted to know who would be the greater among them.

Luke 22:24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.

Hear HIS Voice

Luke 22:25-26 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

Luke 22:27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

Luke 22:28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.

This is all the disciples appointed not just Peter

Luke 22:29-30 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Attention Simon Peter
Luke 22:31-32 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.


It is Off thread to focus on a single denomination. I have spoken of scripture and the final statutes in the blood of Christ Jesus in the thread presented.

~in Christ