While I'm not about to say my faith has been restored, at least the church I once attended has taken a positive step toward embracing basic human rights:

Lutherans Vote to Approve Gay Clergy

By Julie Bolcer
Lutherans Vote to Approve Gay Clergy

The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the nation’s largest Lutheran denomination, voted on Friday to allow gays and lesbians in committed relationships to serve as clergy, lifting a restriction that had required gay and lesbian ministers to remain celibate, reports the Minneapolis Star Tribune .

Church delegates voted 559-451 to remove the ban during their biennial conference in Minneapolis. The vote makes the ELCA, which claims nearly 5 million members, the largest denomination in the country to allow non-celibate gay and lesbian ministers.

Last month, the leaders of the U.S. Episcopal Church voted to lift a similar restriction on non-celibate gay and lesbian bishops. The votes are considered likely to influence the debate over gay clergy in other large Protestant denominations, such as the Presbyterian and Methodist churches.

The resolution approved by the ELCA does not force individual congregations to select gay and lesbian ministers, but allows them to pick the candidates if they wish to do so.

On Friday, delegates also voted 619 to 402 to approve a resolution allowing individual congregations to recognize same-sex unions in the way they see fit.

The vote to approve gay and lesbian ministers occurred after a Baptist minister on Wednesday blamed a tornado that damaged a Lutheran church in Minneapolis on the impending policy change.


We can only hope other churches will follow this example.

YouTube - Lutherans Endorse Homosexuality God Sends Tornado!
No comment!

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Originally Posted by adam7gur

YouTube - Lutherans Endorse Homosexuality God Sends Tornado!
No comment!

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Holy crap! The text description beside that video is as creepy as the assertion that a natural event was caused by a god. So all those people killed in tornado alley every year in the mid-west deserved it?

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Holy crap! The text description beside that video is as creepy as the assertion that a natural event was caused by a god. So all those people killed in tornado alley every year in the mid-west deserved it?

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No one was killed here my friend!

I know. Are all the tornadoes caused by God wrath?

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I know. Are all the tornadoes caused by God wrath?

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No, tornadoes and things like that are the result of man's sin.
When God created earth the climate was absolutely perfect.When man sinned everything changed!
Do not blame God for what we have done.He gave us the perfect conditions to walk with Him, He even protected us from death, but we did not listen to Him and our betrayal caused every bad thing that exists on earth!

So we've come around to my initial point: all those people killed in tornado alley every year in the mid-west deserved it?

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

So we've come around to my initial point: all those people killed in tornado alley every year in the mid-west deserved it?

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Death is the result of sin.We all sin, we all die one way or another.
By the way... I very much like your avatar!

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

So we've come around to my initial point: all those people killed in tornado alley every year in the mid-west deserved it?

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What you are comparing is life as you know it here on earth. What you are not accepting is that life is in heaven, because we are told in HIS WORD, Christ did raise from death which was permtted as our redeeming grace. He became our weakness, so we could be strong in HIS strength and hands. The same that raised Christ will raise our souls.

What should be recognized is that the weakness of man did cause the death. If we attempt and think we can stand allow, we will not survive against death. Death could become the result of what someone deserves, but we do not judge souls.

God's power and wrath in conquering death is not compared in likeness of living on earth in flesh bodies. But is known in life eternal, and how all we can live to be raised to life in heaven by the force that did overcome and conquered death.

So if you want to ask what those who were taken by the force of the tornado deserved, you must feel they were being punished, and I strongly disagree. Whether taken or not, they raise to life in heaven.

We rest in knowing whenever death does occur, we will be raised. And you know yourself life on earth does not continue forever, so why think it was punishment, when they went to return home with GOD.

Rest in assurance of HIS WORD, HIS PROMISE = FAITH

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

The birth of new life is with God

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Originally Posted by adam7gur

Death is the result of sin.We all sin, we all die one way or another.

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Faith in Christ gives us forgiveness from sin, and liberty to chose.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

So if you want to ask what those who were taken by the force of the tornado deserved, you must feel they were being punished, and I strongly disagree.

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I disagree with that notion as well, I was just commenting on the video that adam posted that basically says God was mad and sent a tornado.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I know. Are all the tornadoes caused by God wrath?

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Is the world under the power of God? YES

Do the winds blows and the rain fall because of God? YES

Did we effect the results of what happen on earth? YES

Because all reap from what we sow, and we should follow the will of God to reap goodness

Well there are never tornadoes where I live.. ever. I do lead a pretty goof life though so that helps. Well that and tornadoes form only in certain specific conditions. Look at where the bulk of the sin is in the US: Where do tornadoes occur

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I disagree with that notion as well, I was just commenting on the video that adam posted that basically says God was mad and sent a tornado.

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The time we have on earth is determined by God. From the little babe that can be taken to the old man that is taken, both are according to God's plan for them. Neither are the punishment of God's wrath, but are the loving gift to life in heaven.

Can the tornado's result be, in result of God's wrath, for something God used force to overcome. YES

So all those people did indeed deserve to die because of some sin they committed?

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

So all those people did indeed deserve to die because of some sin they committed?

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No that is not true.. It was their time to go home with God, for what reason for each, is only known by God.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

The time we have on earth is determined by God. From the little babe that can be taken to the old man that is taken, both are according to God's plan for them. Neither are the punishment of God's wrath, but are the loving gift to life in heaven.

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We have no right to change or leave out any part of Gods word. We
Choose who we will serve. We are for Him or
Against Him, His word is the Word of God.
If we all put in or take out what we want in the bible it
Would not be only Gods word.
God loves all and receives all, we are all sinners and fall short in obedience.
God help us all and thank you for being a loving and forgiving God.

Blessings, Maggie 3

It just gets confusing. Adam said that tornadoes are the result of man's sins. It's odd that a whole family living quietly in the midwest would be called home all at once, I wonder why that would be?

Then of course there is the issue that tornadoes only occur in certain areas of the world, why is that?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

It just gets confusing. Adam said that tornadoes are the result of man's sins. It's odd that a whole family living quietly in the midwest would be called home all at once, I wonder why that would be?

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Maybe to spare them from hunger that would be resulted by the tornado. Maybe we are not to know why God determines such things in life so that we do not judge souls. Maybe so we can learn to REST in Full Assurance of our Faith in Christ who did raise from the dead.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Then of course there is the issue that tornadoes only occur in certain areas of the world, why is that?

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The link said, which is what man says: The majority of tornadoes occur in agricultural areas.

Maybe we need to be more thankful for what we are given. Maybe we need to experience shortage so we can be more thankful.
Maybe so we can learn to REST in Full Assurance of our Faith in Christ.


This is off thread... so I think we should go back to what was the thread.. Hope what has been discussed will focus on Faith

Sorry mate, you're right.

Good for the Lutheran Church!

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Originally Posted by Maggie 3

We have no right to change or leave out any part of Gods word. We
choose who we will serve. We are for Him or
against Him, His word is the Word of God.
If we all put in or take out what we want in the bible it
would not be only Gods word.
God loves all and receives all, we are all sinners and fall short in obediance.
God help us all and thank you for being a loving and forgiving God.

Blessings, Maggie 3

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Yet realize that liberty to choose, was given unto all. Walk in righteousness or walk in darkness. The curse of sin was changed, and we were set free from the curse of sin.

Walk in the light of righteousness

I Corinthians 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Isaiah 3:9 The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide [it] not. Woe unto their soul! For they have rewarded evil unto themselves.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

The OP question about more churches following the lead of the Lutheran church reminds me of a bit of rhyme I heard a long time ago.

Inscribed on a tombstone:

As you are now
So once was I
As I am now
You soon will be
Prepare yourself
To follow me.

To which someone later added:

To follow you
I'm not content
Until I know
Which way you went


Matt 15:14 (Jesus said)
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
(KJV)

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Originally Posted by galveston

Matt 15:14 (Jesus said)
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
(KJV)

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As scripture has told us, many will calm to be teaches of Christ, and what they calm to do is in the name of Christ. (However, Jesus, also tells us )

Matthew 7:22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? 7:23:And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Point of Fact:

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

We can't count the number of times that we have been foretold of deception, and evil works that will come calming to be in HIS name.

Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Mark 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and shall deceive many.

Luke 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

As the end draws near, we know there will be a famine for truth, because people are willing to give suck to the flood of lies that will come by the mouth of satan. Revelation 12:15-16 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by galveston

The OP question about more churches following the lead of the Lutheran church reminds me of a bit of rhyme I heard a long time ago.

Inscribed on a tombstone:

As you are now
So once was I
As I am now
You soon will be
Prepare yourself
To follow me.

To which someone later added:

To follow you
I'm not content
Until I know
Which way you went


Matt 15:14 (Jesus said)
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
(KJV)

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Such a loving Christian attitude! I know who's falling in the ditch and it's the demagogues with the flat-earth-society manner of viewing the world.

No one is going to accept any longer the kind of old fashioned bigotry and prejudice spewed by Christian religious leaders of a thankfully bygone era.

Without turning this into an age old debate you know the word of God is plain about homosexuality

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Faith in Christ gives us forgiveness from sin, and liberty to chose.

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Yes! I only meant our physical death.Because of sin our bodies die and through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ we are forgiven and live with the Lord forever!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paraclete

without turning this into an age old debate you know the word of God is plain about homosexuality

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What makes you think I give a hoot what your make-believe word of god says? What does Thor or Poseidon think of homosexuality? That would be a far more interesting question to me. And it is exactly as meaningful a question. Your bible is a fairytale and you know it.

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Originally Posted by cadillac59

What makes you think I give a hoot what your make-believe word of god says? What does Thor or Poseidon think of homosexuality? That would be a far more interesting question to me. And it is exactly as meaningful a question. Your bible is a fairytale and you know it.

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If so then you should be more interested in how to bring homosexual behavior in the church of Thor or Poseidon and not in the church of Jesus Christ.
If you challenge the church of Jesus Christ, then you should be ready for the church of Jesus Christ to answear you.The time will come for us to see what is true and what is a fairytale.If you don't give a hoot what the Word of God says,then why getting into all this?But the answear of course is that the spirit of the world cannot stand the Spirit of God that dwells among the Church of Jesus Christ.
Oh yes , it is a war and you know what? You have already been defeated!

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Originally Posted by adam7gur

If so then you should be more interested in how to bring homosexual behavior in the church of Thor or Poseidon and not in the church of Jesus Christ.
If you challenge the church of Jesus Christ, then you should be ready for the church of Jesus Christ to answear you.The time will come for us to see what is true and what is a fairytale.If you don't give a hoot what the Word of God says,then why getting into all this?But the answear of course is that the spirit of the world cannot stand the Spirit of God that dwells among the Church of Jesus Christ.
Oh yes , it is a war and you know what? You have already been defeated!

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Yeah, the spirit of the world versus the spirit of god, blah, blah, blah... seems like the world's been winning.Go sell that tired old line to the credulous idiots that have populated churches for centuries.

I'm not challenging anybody's church, just saying what one courageous Christian church did to come into the 21st century and leave the barbaric world of bronze age Palestine.

You guys won't quit until you have destroyed civilization and turned the clock make on man's moral evolution 2000 years. No. You are not going to win, not without a fight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cadillac59

Yeah, the spirit of the world versus the spirit of god, blah, blah, blah....seems like the world's been winning.Go sell that tired old line to the credulous idiots that have populated churches for centuries.

I'm not challenging anybody's church, just saying what one courageous Christian church did to come into the 21st century and leave the barbaric world of bronze age Palestine.

You guys won't quit until you have destroyed civilization and turned the clock make on man's moral evolution 2000 years. No. You are not going to win, not without a fight.

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You have just invited legeons of evil spirits to penetrate you and they will be very quick to do so.
I also surrender you to your master, maybe your soul will be saved so, as your last chance!
May God help you!

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Originally Posted by adam7gur

You have just invited legeons of evil spirits to penetrate you and they will be very quick to do so.
I also surrender you to your master, maybe your soul will be saved so, as your last chance!
May God help you!

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Fear, scare-tactics, manipulation. That's what is all comes down to doesn't it? Pathetic this sort of superstition still exists in the 21st century.

Makes me wonder why Cadillac bothered to post on a Christian thread.

Rev 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(KJV)

You are not arguing with me. You are arguing with THE AUTHOR.

You lost before you started.

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Originally Posted by galveston

Makes me wonder why Cadillac bothered to post on a Christian thread.

Rev 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(KJV)

You are not arguing with me. You are arguing with THE AUTHOR.

You lost before you started.

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You are right. I shouldn't bother with posting on this board. If you want to believe this stuff, fine. But keep it to yourselves. Keep me out of it. As long as your preachments don't encroach on secular civil society (which they always seem to), no problem. As Christopher Hitchens once said, "it's like joining an S&M club, if you want to do so, that's your business, but keep me out of it."

Oh, by the way, this was my thread, but of course your board. Just a friendly correction.

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Originally Posted by galveston

You are not arguing with me. You are arguing with THE AUTHOR.

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Then how about a response from THE AUTHOR.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Then how about a response from THE AUTHOR.

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You already have it. It is your choice whether to RSVP or not.

By your own responsiveness or lack thereof, you choose your own destiny.

You have a great privilege. Use it wisely.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by galveston

You have a great privilege. Use it wisely.

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I know, I have. Thanks for your concern.

Cadi,

Your question is why don't other churches follow the lead?

Because it is a sin according to God's word. I have nothing against a gay person. I have nothing against a heterosexual couple who live in sin and won't marry. BUT I have something against a church who allows a minister who is living in a KNOWN sin to preach the word of God. I'm not talking about sinning. I'm talking about a sin lifestyle and there are many forms. Sin is sin is sin. It doesn't change. Incidentally I wouldn't want a pastor to get up and preach drunk either. I am NOT putting sin on a scale but when the Christian Churches start decidiing what is SIN and what isn't when the BIBLE clearly and plainly defines it... I wouldn't want anything to do with it.

Look, I'm no saint and have done plenty wrong in my Christian life. I heard someone on AMHD suggest that Christians pick what is right or wrong depending on what THEY want. Well I don't think I pick anything. It is what it is. I have sinned and Lived in it too... but I still KNEW it was wrong all the while. If I found a Church that accepted my sin, embraced it and said you are OK, you don't have to change.. then I would suggest they gave up Christianity all together. It is what Paul warned Timothy against... a doctrine of demons.

A Christian church should accept anyone because the Lord Jesus does. However the Lord Jesus expects us to change too. So should a Christian church. Read 1 Corinthians 5. Paul got on that church for NOT dealing with a known sin lifestyle.

This may rub you the wrong way.. but I didn't write the Bible and I sure ain't interested in RE-writing it. I'm willing to let God be God and I believe him at his word. THIS is the reason not all churches will follow the lead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by classyT

Cadi,

Your question is why don't other churches follow the lead?

Because it is a sin according to God's word. I have nothing against a gay person. I have nothing against a heterosexual couple who live in sin and won't marry. BUT i have something against a church who allows a minister who is living in a KNOWN sin to preach the word of God. I'm not talking about sinning. I'm talking about a sin lifestyle and there are many forms. Sin is sin is sin. It doesn't change. Incidently I wouldn't want a pastor to get up and preach drunk either. I am NOT putting sin on a scale but when the Christian Churches start decidiing what is SIN and what isn't when the BIBLE clearly and plainly defines it...I wouldn't want anything to do with it.

Look, I'm no saint and have done plenty wrong in my Christian life. I heard someone on AMHD suggest that Christians pick and choose what is right or wrong depending on what THEY want. Well I don't think I pick and choose anything. It is what it is. I have sinned and Lived in it too...but i still KNEW it was wrong all the while. If I found a Church that accepted my sin, embraced it and said you are ok, you don't have to change..then I would suggest they gave up Christianity all together. It is what Paul warned Timothy against...a doctrine of demons.

A Christian church should accept anyone because the Lord Jesus does. However the Lord Jesus expects us to change too. So should a Christian church. Read 1 Corinthians 5. Paul got on that church for NOT dealing with a known sin lifestyle.

This may rub you the wrong way..but i didn't write the Bible and I sure ain't interested in RE-writing it. I'm willing to let God be God and I believe him at his word. THIS is the reason not all churches will follow the lead.

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Not all churches believe every book in the bible or ever passage is true. I don't accept the bible at all and I don't read it. I don't want it or anything to do with it. It's not picking and choosing it's simply a different belief system, one that's less dogmatic, one that rejects fundamentalist extremism. The views you express are extremist. You think because some ignorant sheepherder in the Middle East 2000 years ago who thought the earth was flat said something or wrote something and someone 400 years later tossed it in a book, decided it was god's word, that it is god speaking and has some relevance today. That's how stupid the whole thing is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cadillac59

Not all churches believe every book in the bible or ever passage is true. I don't accept the bible at all and I don't read it. I don't want it or anything to do with it. It's not picking and choosing it's simply a different belief system, one that's less dogmatic, one that rejects fundamentalist extremism. The views you express are extremist. You think because some ignorant sheepherder in the Middle East 2000 years ago who thought the earth was flat said something or wrote something and someone 400 years later tossed it in a book, decided it was god's word, that it is god speaking and has some relevance today. That's how stupid the whole thing is.

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Wow, I hate it that we are getting off on the wrong foot here... BUT CADILAC, do me a favor... don't tell me WHAT I THINK... k? You asked a question, I gave you an answer. You don't have to LIKE the answer. That is cool with me. If you don't care what the Bible has to say... why post the question in Christianity... why do you care what churches follow the lead on this topic?

I don't care what other Islam thinks about a topic ( not picking on the muslims just using them as an example... and I don't care if they change their doctrines to make other Islamic believers happy. I don't care and I don't post questions on that board because I don't care. I REALLY don't think the Quran is the truth and I don't get angry at the people who live by it. I think they are deceived. So... I'm wondering IF you don't care... why do you ask? I'm curious. Because it sounds like to me you DO care and you are a little angry at fundies like myself who believe the word of God is truth.

I think you have been hurt by some so called Christian.. that is my take and I could be wrong... wouldn't be the first time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by classyT

Wow, I hate it that we are getting off on the wrong foot here....BUT CADILAC, do me a favor...don't tell me WHAT I THINK...k? You asked a question, I gave you an answer. You don't have to LIKE the answer. That is cool with me. If you don't care what the Bible has to say.....why post the question in Christianity...why do you care what churches follow the lead on this topic?

I don't care what other Islam thinks about a topic ( not picking on the muslims just using them as an example...and I don't care if they change their doctrines to make other Islamic believers happy. I don't care and I don't post questions on that board because I don't care. I REALLY don't think the Quran is the truth and I don't get angry at the people who live by it. I think they are decieved. So.....I'm wondering IF you don't care....why do you ask? I'm curious. Because it sounds like to me you DO care and you are a little angry at fundies like myself who believe the word of God is truth.

I think you have been hurt by some so called Christian..that is my take and I could be wrong...wouldn't be the first time.

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You are right, I have been hurt by Christianity, and that's because all religion always hurts everyone at some level or another. As a gay man, yeah, I've been hurt by Christianity that rejects me and who I am or tells me I have to be someone or something that I cannot be and don't want to be (like heterosexual). Yeah, that's a lot to be hurt about.