Do you believe it is proper to baptize children?
If so why so.
If not why not.
I'm also interested in what the early Church Christian had to say about that.
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred (arcura)
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Do you believe it is proper to baptize children?
If so why so.
If not why not.
I'm also interested in what the early Church Christian had to say about that.
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred (arcura)
I believe that someone must first know and believe in what he/she is going to be baptized to.
Children do not know and do not believe.When they come to an age of knowledge and faith in Jesus Christ then I believe it is OK for them to be baptized.
That question should bring a lot of discussion/argument.
I don't want to fight about it and do believe that each one should continue to practice what they have been taught without rancor. However, I will state my understanding so that others can look at another view.
Baptism is a physical act with a powerful spiritual side... somewhat tied in with physical circumcision under the Law. Circumcision was commanded by God as part of an outward sign of a covenant with God. It was carried out on the eighth day after birth without regard to the permission or understanding of the child. Yet it was effective for that child becoming a part of God's kingdom on earth and gave all God's promises (and obligations) made in the covenant with Abraham and his descendants till the Israelites were free of Egypt and the "Law of Moses" was given.
NOTE: because the adults freed from Egypt broke God's covenant, circumcision was not practiced in the wilderness until those younger people were ready to enter the promised land of the covenant:
Jos 5:2-8
2 At that time the Lord said to Joshua, "Make flint knives and circumcise the Israelites again." 3 So Joshua made flint knives and circumcised the Israelites at Gibeath Haaraloth.
4 Now this is why he did so: All those who came out of Egypt — all the men of military age — died in the desert on the way after leaving Egypt. 5 All the people that came out had been circumcised , but all the people born in the desert during the journey from Egypt had not. 6 The Israelites had moved about in the desert forty years until all the men who were of military age when they left Egypt had died, since they had not obeyed the Lord. For the Lord had sworn to them that they would not see the land that he had solemnly promised their fathers to give us, a land flowing with milk and honey. 7 So he raised up their sons in their place, and these were the ones Joshua circumcised . They were still uncircumcised because they had not been circumcised on the way. 8 And after the whole nation had been circumcised , they remained where they were in camp until they were healed.
NIV
This is because circumcision was NOT ONLY an outward sign but included an expected circumcision of the heart as the person grew up. That is, there was a spiritual side from God.
Dt 30:6
6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.
NIV
Jer 9:25-26
25 "The days are coming," declares the Lord, "when I will punish all who are circumcised only in the flesh — 26 Egypt, Judah, Edom, Ammon, Moab and all who live in the desert in distant places. For all these nations are really uncircumcised, and even the whole house of Israel is uncircumcised in heart."
NIV
Likewise, baptism is not only an outward sign in water washing but when one is baptized into Christ (and His death);because of God's word of promise in baptism, the person is cleansed from their sins and a part of God's kingdom... WITH the expectation that this salvation will be worked out as they mature, whether baptized as a child or an adult.
I, myself was baptized in water baptism only once. And that was when I was only a few days old. And God has never let go of me nor withheld anything of His love and promises from me. As long as I know of no clear prohibition from God's word for children to be baptized with water and the word, I must believe that all the promises of baptism are effective for children as well as adults.
Fred, the Bible is very clear on this subject. When did Jesus himself get baptized? So if you are to understand that it is very clear that Jesus was about 30 years old when his baptism occurred. It was the signal that started his ministry. Not as a baby like some churches teach.
Fred,
Baptism is a outward expression of an inward change. I don't know how and baby or small child can understand the concept. That is my take.However I was baptized at 9. It depends completely on what they can understand and believe. I was a child but I KNEW what I was doing and remember it to this day.
I was brought up in one of the most fundamentalist places anyone could imagine.. and they did baptized households because Paul spoke of baptizing families. I disagree with the practice unless the entire family understands what is going on.
The scriptures tell us that the child is sanctified by the believing parent. That said, it is perfectly appropriate for (believing) parents to baptize their children.
Wow... you could have a point. I personally waited until my kids could understand but I do hear you. I'm interested in what others think of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by s_cianci
s_cianci,
You and others so far have made good points on this.
The old covenant was of circumcision and Jesus started the new covenant on holy Baptism.
I keep in mind that He did say to suffer not the children come unto me.
AND the bible does tell us that children were baptized.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred, please give me one verse that even hints that children were Baptized.
Dedicated, yes, like Samuels mother dedicated Samuel. John's Baptism(John the Baptist) was for the Hebrews and was a Baptism of repentance - the baptized admitting they had screwed up and were convicted of their sin.
Baptism today is for a believer to signify his association with Christ after receiving the Holy Spirit.
Baby or child dedication - yes
Baptism -full body submersion under the water(signifying the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus as we come up out of the water) No.
If you want to dedicate by putting a water cross on the baby's forehead with your wet finger - sure, why not?
First I would challenge anyone, that there is no Christian church I know of that would accept the Baptism of Jesus as a proper baptism
It was not done in "jesus name" nor was it done in the "name of the father, son and holy spirit"
It was even referred to as the Baptism of John
Many faiths will not even accept another Christians churches baptism even when done in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
1 Pet 3:21
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
(KJV)
This could not apply to an infant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
OK Fred I have to challenge you once again. That is if you are up to accepting it this time. You have taken that passage out of context, so it is not valid to this discussion.
Second, please give us chapter and verse where Jesus taught the baptism of infants and small children?
Scripture says we are sanctified by truth (John 17:19) And by faith in Christ Jesus (Acts 26:18)Quote:
Originally Posted by s_cianci
Take a minute to reason the Greek meaning of what baptize really meant, and why the interpretation by man from the original text was used.
The word "baptizo" should not be confused with the word "bapto". The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 BC. It is the recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the veg should first be dipped (bapto) into boiling water and then baptised (baptizo) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concerns the immersing of veg in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the veg, produces a permanent change.
Scripture clearly example "baptism" as being to immerse, to submerge (meaning vessels sunk) and when we read (John 1:33) we are told by John that God sent him to baptize with water, and that same God is HE that baptizeth with the HOLY SPIRIT.
By water baptism as instructed by God, we have a permanent change in which God does the actual baptiseth of the HOLY SPIRIT. And this change takes place within us is said to quicken us, buries us in Christ, dead to this world of fifth in sin and giving us an answer of a good conscience. Christ can then dwell within .... Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
When you clearly hear Christ say in (Matthew 20:22), are you able to be baptized with the same baptism I was baptized with? Do we not hear HIS voice saying the sufficiency of those words "MY sheep hear MY voice?"
(Col 2:12) says when baptized you are buried with Christ in baptism, and able to raise with HIM through faith by the operation of God.
And in (1 Peter 3:21) whereunto even baptism doth also SAVE us.. KJV
(Matthew 28:20) Jesus said to teach them to observe what I have commanded you.. KJV
Matthew 28:18-19 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Not one verse says little children or babies should be taken by parents to be baptized.
We personally believe that Baptism is an act of a willing, choosing participant.
At any age a child/teen/adult may choose to be baptized. That being said, my faith does not baptize infants or younger children.
homesell,
Please consider this passage.
Act 2: 38. And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39. "For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself."
40. And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!"
41. So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
I do believe that children were included in that 3000 souls baptized that day because Peter was speaking to the adults and their children present.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred,
I'm only answering because I asked you the question of showing me a single verse of very young children being baptized.
In Acts 2:38 you ignore that Peter says Repent before he tells them to be Baptized
In verse 39 he says the promise is for even those that are far off "as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself"
In verse 40 Baptism is NOT mentioned but it does say Peter was exhorting them to be saved from this perverse generation - which, if a young child could understandand, it was not the child's generation but his parents (when we are old enough, we realize that ALL generations are wicked and perverse)
In verse 41, it says the ones that were baptized were the ones that had received his word. In all verses you've cited, it took intelligent proactive action - something a baby or young child is incapable of. The children were mentioned because they would have a special advantage by having Godly parents to bring them up in the fear and knowledge of the Lord.
You can believe what you want but the bible actually says that the 3,000 were composed of "those that had received his word" which, while it may have included children, they were children old enough to decide for themselves... 1500 guys did NOT go forward and say, "please baptize me and my little baby that didn't understand a word you said."
Try reading the scripture without any pre-conceived denominational beliefs.
Instead of saying, "how will I interpret this scripture to agree with my beliefs?" ask, "how should I adjust my beliefs to fit with scripture?"
Jeff, Green TagQuote:
Originally Posted by homesell
Definitely true, and we each have to be accountable for the soundness of our faith. Scripture does not example contradiction in truth, nor is there inconsistent in what Christ fulfilled each step of HIS way.
Until man realizes that he is to follow Christ steps, and not man who will try to establish their own rules and steps to follow, he remains double minded within the heart of his actions. (Watch in causion that you are not beguiled from the simplicity of Christ Jesus) The revelation of Christ, who is the faithful witness, who examples all dominion and power over us. (Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.)
1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow HIS steps
BECAUSE: 1 Peter 2:25 For you were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
`In Christ
Jeff
The book of acts also tells us of a family who all were baptized plus the passage I mentioned and the fact that Jesus said "suffer the little children to come unto be AND FORBID THEM NOT" convince me that children could and should be baptized to receive the Holy Spirit as soon as possible.
Thanks for your point of view.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred,
So a whole family was baptized. What were their ages? My parents and all their children are saved. The whole family has been baptized. I'm the "youngster" of the family (my Dad always introduces me to friends at the retirement park as his little boy) at age 57.
Yes Jesus said let the children come to Him and don't stop them. Jesus did NOT say "bring the babies and young children too young to understand to me." I would never forbid any child that expressed an interest in coming to Jesus and being baptized. You still have it backwards. One doesn't get baptized in order to receive the Holy Spirit. One gets Baptized (in water) to show that they have already received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. No where does the Bible indicate that anyone should ever be baptized that isn't even aware of God, his Word, or Jesus, or what Jesus did for them.
As for your previous citation, bringing it up again after I thoroughly refuted it shows that you are determined to make God's word fit what you believe.
Thanks for not putting in the vacuous I agree or I disagree and leaving it at that and thanks for actually trying to come up with a justification for your belief rather than ignoring the challenge.
What hinders baptism?
Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
What was the answer to that question?( Acts 8:37 thou mayest if )
AND realize it is not just that this answer of what hinders baptism from being done is in scripture, it also clearly states what is done and when. Those who follow man rather then Christ aren't today baptized with anything more then a sprinkle of water. The steps Christ commanded us to follow was as HIS baptism.
Man's traditions make VOID the Word of GOD !
meaning of the word hinder = prevent-forbid-keep from-to deny or refuse one a thing
Jeff.
Thanks for your point of view on this.
You already have mine.
In addition to that I can not believe that a very if a young child who still cannot speak is baptized at the request of loving, believing parents that God would ignore that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Jeff,
Thanks for your baptism story.
It is beautiful.
Fred
Need Karma,
Thanks much.
I do have the set of scales at the top right of each post.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
I come from an Anabaptist background, meaning that my faith believes that people need to be baptised after a conversion experience - I was baptised at age 16, as an outward sign of an inward change. My Mennonite forbearers were persecuted greatly for this belief, and were even killed and tortured for this belief. This is why the Mennonites left northern Holland and went to Germany, Prussia, Russia, then Canada and Mexico, and Paraguay - to escape persecution.
My husband comes from a Lutheran background, and he thinks that when it talks in the Bible about whole families coming to Jesus and believing in him and being baptised, that means that everyone is covered by the "family" decision. This may be true, but I do not think it precludes an individual making a decision to follow God's way for their life.
However, where I have the problem, because we do attend a Lutheran church, is the wording that makes it sound as though a baptised baby has no other obligation to God and that all of that baby's future sins are covered. It seems to contrived, too formulated to allow for any spontaneous work of the Holy Spirit.
If anyone really wants some perspective on this, read up on the Anabaptist movement. This discussion has been going on for centuries. Only now we don't kill people who believe the way I do.
Only now we don't kill people who believe the way I do.[/QUOTE]
True in the US and other civilized countries, but in much of the world right now, it is dangerous to life and limb to be a Christian.
I also believe that you cannot be truly baptised until you know and accept jesus as your savior, an infant cannot do this.
However a CHILD can. My 5, almost 6 year old is asking to be baptised because she says, and I quote
'i love jesus and I want him in my heart all the time and I want everyone to know!"
I am considering letting her, however I may wait another year, as she still does not completely understand the meaning of 'sin' and I want her to have a complete understanding before we do.
*edit* when I say she doesn't understand sin, I mean she knows that when she does 'bad' it makes jesus sad, but she does not understand WHY, nor does she know or understand all of Gods commandments
I believe you need to be consciously aware of a physically initiated symbolic event to experience it spiritually, and be aware of the meaning and content. It should be a choice, not a condemnation.
Yes seven, this is another reason I am probably going to hold off on her getting baptised to be SURE she understands what the meaning of baptism is.
It IS interesting the different beliefs there are concerning Baptism.
I wonder if the early Church fathers had anything to say about that.
Does anyone know if they did?
Peace and kindness,
Fred
If one looks at tradition, I look at what both the catholic church and the orthodox church do in common, since if they share a practice, then we know it was something done prior to the 800's. Infant baptism is one of them.
Well, from other scriptures and this one, the mode was immersion.
Acts 8:38-39
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
(KJV)
Yes, the original method of baptism, we see this in the Orthodox church, is immersion, they do this to infants.
Hear "The Word" of the Lord God = Christ
Hear the "Word of God" = Christ
When we read this throughtout scripture, I believe we are being told to Hear the Word which is Christ. And Christ, Himself said refer:
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Christ went on to say that man will not pluck them out of HIS hands.. Why do you think Christ said this? Christ told us why.. those that hear HIM follow HIM..
Fr_Chuck,
Thanks much for that answer.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Very interesting discussion. I want to add something to it. I can not quote scripture, because I don't have the memory for it. However, I do remember being baptized at a young age. I believe I was around six or seven. I saw that everyone at my church was doing it, and I think that at the time I understood that if you did not get baptized you were going to hell. I really believe that in order to find Christ it is your personal journey, and I think that with baptism at a young age it takes away from it. At that age I did not understand the meaning behind it, and without that understanding it means nothing. I do believe no matter how many bible studies and church camps you go to or how many choirs you sing in, because I did it all, at that age you really don't understand until you get older.
I have a four year old, and my family pressures me to get her baptized. I will not do it because I want it to be her decision when she gets older, and I think that it will have so much meaning and purpose if she decides that with everything that is going on in the world that she chooses to embrace Christ. I believe that God wants people to make the decision for themselves, and not someone else making the decision for them.
Purdue2010 ,
I firmly believe that The Holy Spirit enters a person's soul at the time of baptism no matter what the age.
God works in mysterious ways.
Most Churches believe that infant baptism should be done. I agree.
Jesus said to have the little children come unto Him and FORBID THEM NOT.
I think that is an order from God the Son.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Listen to man (or) Hear the Word of God
Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done
Acts 8:36-37 And as they went on [their] way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Acts 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
sndbay
Yes, very good and how many of those who were baptized were children.
I believe that quite a few were.
Can you prove that none were?
Peace and kindness,
Fred
The question is how many were babies? I trust we can say not even one..Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
There are children that can be baptized because they themselves can cenfess faith in Christ Jesus.
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