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If jesus christ is the only way as the bible says. What is the fate of millions of people born into other religions as it seems thatmost peoples beliefs are as a result of the fact that they were born into a particular faith and their parents thought them to follow that faith?
Do you think that God would punish other people for being in a faith that is different? Is that a loving and forgiving God?Quote:
Originally Posted by cynix
That's why our GOD in unique he loves and cherishes everybody no matter your religion and faith.
While God is loving, that he why he gave man a choice and did not just destroy all of mankind when he could have.
And man has choices, so the fate of all of those that reject Christ will be that they will not enter into heaven.
Christianity does not allow those that do not accept Christ a place in God's kingdom.
While he is loving his has his strict rules that also has to be followed, the old testment is not done away with, and too many people who are even Christain forget the punishment that God does give for not following his word.
All mankind by its very nature does not deserve anything from God except punishment, no one is "good" enough for God. So he is loving by even allowing us a chance to be saved
So, back to the poster's question, are you saying that if these people who were born into other faith/religion/cultures, etc... do not eventually follow God, that they will not be saved into Heaven when they die?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
I like this question, because I often wonder myself. I suppose that is why there are missionaries and people like that who go around the world to speak of God-but still-what is the real truth behind all of this?
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)
It all depends on the reason why a person rejects Jesus.
If the person knows in his heart that the Ransom sacrifice is valid and still rejects it, then his losing out on life is his own choice. If a person rejects it because he honestly believes Jesus is not the only way to a good relationship with God, then that person will be given a chance in the new order of things to see for himself that Jesus is indeed the way to eternal life. Then and only then will the person's rejection be taken as a sign that he has chosen death instead of life.
If a person never hears about the free gift of salvation through Jesus, I believe they will be given the opportunity to make the choice. God is not going to hold someone responsible who never heard the good news. However, Jesus is the only way to God the Father.
Some don't worry about fate, rather they strive on being good people and do good things during their lives here on earth. You can find a lot of happiness this way. If you have had a difficult life or have lived through traumatic moments then you may find that you need that extra help, otherwise enjoy yourself, challenge yourself, surround yourself with nice people.
One can not be concerned about their destiny and prides themselves with being a good person and doing good. However, good works do not equal salvation. And how can someone say others may have had a hard life or tragedies when their own life is not even over?
Now to the OP, I caught a few articles about this perennial question. As this one:
http://www.gotquestions.org/never-heard.html
I studied to become Christian and objected to the "only" part too. In fact I was baptised by a generous priest who allowed me to leave the word "only" out and the hallabaloo that followed with that caused me to leave the church and the faith. I understand now what he did was wrong but it doesn't make the only concept right, only right for that religion. That is an important distinction to make.
I believe this "only" business is a marketing tactic cooked up long long ago by humans who wanted to hardsell their particular religious product. No God who made us all would santion that, frankly. How could he?
So maybe its not God who says that...
The other marketing tactic I believe is used (and is the subject on a recent threads too and here it is) is what happens after we die.
I'm not sure what this sentence is saying but suffice it to say that destiny and doing good are not mutually exclusive of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
That's right. Being a good person is its own reward.Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
I assumed the "up to now" was understood since I can't see the future. I agree that a pessimistic view on life and one's own future would push one to hope that a higher being watches over them.Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
Whoa Nellie! This paints us in a pretty bad light. It also paints God as kind of stuck up, or arrogant or well, at the very least puts some sort of negative human attribute on the One who is all perfect. Which does not make sense to me?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
As for destiny, I am very concerned about my destiny and the world's destiny and everyone in it too. Without exception. It does not take being of a faith or being of any particular faith to be that. And when my fate and the world's fate is one, good works does equate salvation and that is how it all works too, I believe. That any religion attempts to neatly separate itself from the world, when its not in reality separated, is THE GROSSEST form of denial I have ever encountered. It held its ground as true when the world was unable to communicate as easily as we do now. I think people are beginning to figure this denial= lie out at the same pace as how small the world is becoming.Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
Notice how no one attempts to actually answer this question. All they can do is spew a bunch of relious jargon at you.
And what of the 5 month old baby that died of birth complications? He didn't accept Jesus into his heart... where will his soul be for eternity? And don't try to answer with the old "Do you really think God would allow a baby to go to Hell?" Because if none of us deseve anything but punishment as it is, then obviously YES... God WOULD allow a baby to spend eternity in Hell, right?
All I can say, NK is that you are wrong to say that I have a pessimistic outlook on life. And I can easily say the same of you, since I do not know you either. All I'll refer to is one fact I can tell, and that is that you have heard the Gospel. The rest is your free will to do what you will with it.
Val, I'm sorry, there's just too much dialogue for me to understand your posts sometimes. I can appreciate your contributions, but maybe it's the Brooklynite in me that is happy just getting the point, or getting to the point, but I can't get around too much analysis in between.
I have a hard time with words. I really just express myself singing and playing guitar- although these days it's the Casio keyboard.
So forgive me. I'm hearing your point and I do hope you come back to the Faith.
Love & Peace to all. :)
Pps- DrJizzle- in my prevous link there is an explanation about babies & the handicapped.
I'm sorry Pumpkin, I'm know logic is hard to follow sometimes. I was suggesting that I won't be back to the faith anytime soon, I think. But thanks for the hope you offered. That was nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
As a intellectual dilemma, I was also making a point that religion likes to claim things "of the world" are bad, like the "flesh" is bad but funny thing is... religion is one of the things "of the world" and its propogated by the "flesh", people. Is that any clearer? Maybe? Maybe not?
Well, maybe it's better to look at it as Spirituality rather than Religion.
Consider Scripture - Galatians 5:24-25- Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Galatians 5:19- The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality,impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, self ambition, dissentions, factions and envy, drunkenness, orgies and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Sinful nature can also mean "the flesh" in many instances.
This world is under the sway of the evil one. We are mostly referring to the influences of this world, and not the fact that there isn't beauty, love and goodness in it to be enjoyed.
Consider another Scripture- Romans 12:2- And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
The Good News is that Jesus overcame this world. John 16:33-"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."
While it is merely a glimpse of the Bible, we do have descriptions of the "flesh" and of the "world" that is really not that hard to understand, it just takes some time I guess to understand spiritual truths. It's not just intellectually, it involves one's heart. (and will also)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJizzle
All of us deserve a chance to make an informed decision in relation to the Ransom sacrifice.
The refusal to accept Jesus Ransom results in death only if the decision is an informed decision not if it is an involuntary one based on ignorance or lack of knowledge or the result of being duped via socialization-or inability to choose due to mental deficiency.
If indeed there are those who have died without having had the opportunity to make a truly informed decision then they will be resurrected and provisions will be made for their care until they are ready to make an informed decision in reference to the Ransom sacrifice.
BTW
What was meant by the other poster who said that we are inherently undeserving is that we cannot earn salvation via our conduct alone and that our condition is one requiring a Ransom sacrifice. Otherwise our undeserving condition cannot be remeddied and eternal death will follow.
I'm 34 years old and I have not been a Christian all of my life although I was raised in a Christian home. I went to Christian school, and am happy to say I have rededicated my life to the Lord. Here's the answer to the question: Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh unto the Father except through HIM-Jesus. It's simple. Look, God has rules, we as man cannot bend them. People born into other religions have the opportunity to hear the Truth. Those that do not I'm sure God has that covered. As far as babies going to Hell and little children, come on! That's not the God I serve. We have an age of accountability. It is different for everyone. A 12 year old may be different than a 10 year old as far as knowing right from wrong. The important thing to know is that you have to make the decision for yourself. No one can do it for you. The bible also says that if anyone tries to enter by any other way but through Jesus he is a thief and a robber. He didn't die to give us a multiple choice way into Heaven. He died to be the only way. Read the Word of God for yourself. King James, NIV, there are a lot. Ask Him to show you. He still talks to people. You don't have to be Isaiah, Moses, or Jacob. I think the hardest thing right now for people to believe is the simplest of ways. Everything has to be NEW and the latest trend. Start by believing that He is, and he will take you into the deepest parts of who that is. Again, He is the ONLY Way. In the end, we'll all realize it, won't we? Thanks for allowing me to answer, I hope it helped.
This is nice and all... but prove it. Where in the Holy Scripture is this said?Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
My point exactly... that is the only real answer anyone can give about this subject... because they simply do not know.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrshull2002
No it doesn't. No one ever died who didn't believe what you believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
NK-
I think the other poster was saying was refusal to accept Jesus results in death after death. Not like, "I reject this..blah..blah..." Now I go out the church, and BAM! I get hit by a car & killed!
Nope, he said refusal results in death. Please read his post: https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religi...tml#post189552
As a matter of fact, your statement isn't true at all. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Proof? You spout out these lines like they are facts but yet offer nothing to back it up. Skip the scripture and show me real world examples.Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
OK, I skipped Scripture. Now read your statement again. Ah duh - your statement doesn't make sense. That's a fact, Watson!Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
For those of you who embrace a religion of ONLYistic absolutism, it clearly is the ONLY way. Your choice of the Bible as the ONLY true scripture, and your insistence that your interpretation of it is the ONLY correct one are valid ONLY for you, nobody else.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrshull2002
Nobody else except those who are in agreement with the persons who hold that viewpoint.Quote:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
BTW
The same can be said of any belief-be it scientific theory, hypotheses, aesthetics, morality, or ethics, etcetera. So there really isn't any distinction here at all. You have people who believe that they can trace themselves to an apelike ancestor and from there to a piglike one who just happened to have survived a mass extinction, and then top a reptile and then to a fishlike one. Right? Yet that might be true for him but there are those to whom that isn't true at all.
So your criticism has to be applied to people who do the same in all areas of knowledge, not just the religious. Which means that your logic will set you against the whole human race.
See the point?
One thing is for certain, we all have free will. We choose what, who, and why we believe. Cal me a Bible Thumper, fanatic, ONLYistic, whatever... I choose to believe He is the ONLY way. I don't make the rules and I'm not perfect, but what if I'm right? What if there's more than just "exisitng" and then death? I look at it this way, say the Bible is right and Jesus is the only way, what do I have to lose while I'm here? Nothing, but I have so much to gain! If the rules and guidelines in the Bible are followed as closely as possible, what kind of human being will that make of someone? You would be able to trust that person, respect them, and know they will always be generous, kind, and I guarantee that person can reach Heaven when you have a need. I know a lot of people who have different religious preferences than my own and you want to know what is sad? A lot of them don't believe in divine healing, yet when they are sick or need something desperately, those same people ask for me to pray. So again, what do you have to lose by just believing?
There are tons of us who don't read the bible and are kind, generous, respectable people. People who are kind, generous and respectable exist all over the place regardless of religion, in the same manner as there are bible thumpers who are just plain bad people.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrshull2002
A nice thought and yes, one would think that is the way it would be... but as so many continue to prove over and over, that's just not the way it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrshull2002
Wow Karma, can you start talking about some of those good & generous & kind non-Christians in detail for a change?Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
All I recall from you is that your mother-in-law pressured you guys to Baptize your child; you have strong reactions to "Margaret" from the show Trading Spouses; & you recklessly worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster (your FSM) ?
How come your always CHALLENGING Christian viewpoints ? Is your creed so weak that you need to take it out on "us"?
That's displacement of one's emotions...
Apparently you skip over the parts where I said that the large percentage of my family and friends are indeed christians. I just mentioned that good people exist all over the place including christians.
The only part I challenge is when people say that you can only be a good person by being a christian which is, of course, utterly false.
When they put forth that their particular view is the only correct one they are telling you that if you disagree you are wrong. All reputable astronomers say that the earth will be burnt to a cinder by the sun when the it shifts from fusing hydrogen to fusing helium.Quote:
NeedKarma disagrees: The same is NOT true of belief in scientific theory since they do not tell others that they are on the wrong path and are going to hell. Get it?
That means that they are saying humans alive at that time living on Earth don't stand a snowball's chance if they remain here. If you contradict that belief they will consider you ignorant just as they will consider you ignorant if you contradict any other of their cherished beliefs.
In short, they are telling mankind that they are on the path to being destroyed if they don't listen to them and take measures to survive. Right?
BTW
I do not believe that nobility of character is restricted to Christians. Or that non-Christians are incapable of being honest law-abiding decent people. So if you got that idea it wasn't from me.
Um, no. You missed the point entirely. Scientific research allows for all to see your work, attempt to reproduce it, and accepts that all things are possible until proven otherwise. I'm not sure what your story means (although it's a hypothesis and, if you can prove otherwise then your good to go) but there is no only one correct view in science.
And no it wasn't you who mentioned the other stuff. :)
Nice try, but no. Proponents of a scientific theory don't claim that those who doubt or question it will be condemned to hell BY GOD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
No, not even close. To disagree with a person's ideas about what will happen when the sun runs out of fuel is not in any sense the same as saying that that person will be eternally damned BY GOD for believing something different about it than you do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
How very generous of you! Non-Christians the world over will be relieved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Does science really accept that all things are possible until proven otherwise? The existence of God hasn't been proven otherwise and yet most scientists seem quite vehement in denying the possibility of a creator
bTW
If we are averse to religious dogmatism then to remain consistent we must remain averse to scientific dogmatism as well. Otherwise it really isn't dogmatism we are averse to but something else entirely.
1. I never said they were equivalentQuote:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
2. I never said that they were saying that.
3. Now you are merely heckling and jeckling.
1. No? Then what did you mean by "So there really isn't any distinction here at all"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
2. No? Then what did you mean by "they are telling mankind that they are on the path to being destroyed if they don't listen"?
Wasn't it your point that the same criticisms being dircted at religious dogmatism apply equally to scientific theories and opinions? My point is that the offensive thing about religious bigotry is its insistence, not just that opposing views are wrong, but that God will punish those who hold these views.
3. Yes, I was heckling a little, and I apoligise for that. But I firmly deny jeckling.
Not at all. Religious dogmatism is based on faith, science cannot be a dogmatism by definition since it is based on observable facts and repetitive experimentation. Nice try though, points for big words. Being averse to a dogmatism and not to science is not a consistency problem, it's a strawman argument. The point we are making is that there are only a few people here that consistenly tell others that they are on the wrong path and are damned simply because they don't believe the same stuff the same way. Most here have a belief and allow others to have their own, whether it's the same or not. Is that so hard to understand?Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
I don't want to start a new pissing match or add to the current one, but this question of dogma is really interesting. Is the theory of the sun's frying the planet an issue of 'scientific' dogma to a christian believer? Are there other scientific theories (other than evolution) that christian believers have trouble with, and feel the world in general, the scientific community or the media are shoving down their throats? Is it a question of dogma at all?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
I meant that scientists are just as convinced that they and only they are right as the religious people you describe. So in their belief in being correct to the exception of all others once they conclude that they are-there is no difference between the twain.
The offensive thing I find in many atheist scientists is that they consider anyone who disagrees with their Godless views an ignoramus. How so?
This way:
They are telling mankind that the future of the earth as described in the Bible is a lie because there is no God and that anyone disagreeing with them is an undereducated fool. Obviously you choose not to see that as bigotry while choosing to see those who say they believe in God and what they consider his purpose for the Earth as true bigots.
In the realm of logic this is called the fallacy of inconsistency of policy.
Excerpt:
Dogmatic atheists refuse to accept the demands of their own positions and one need only visit the internet to see a legion of atheist apologetic sites claming that the Burden of Proof does not apply to them.
http://www.deism.com/dogmatic%20atheism.htm
BTW
Scientists are also guilty of the inconsistency of policy error in the way they choose and don't choose to interpret data.
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