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Do you think that if one commits suicide that they, if saved, can enter into Heaven? Does committing suicide make you lose your salvation or rather are you ushered into Heaven early. Also, as a side note, if one belongs to the Lord would they really want to harm His creation?
As I see it , suicide is not black or white.
Could you expound on what you mean by that please?Quote:
Originally Posted by adam7gur
I think that the whole suicide thing started with Judas and because he is lost we believe that any person committing suicide is also lost, but I believe that Judas did not make it not because he committed suicide but because he did not believe that Jesus could forgive him.Peter betrayed Jesus three times, Judas only once,but Peter believed in the Lord's mercy,while Judas did not, otherwise he would have done the same as Peter.
Let's say that a mentally ill person, that is not responsible for his actions, commits suicide.Who is to say what will happen to that person?
I don't know, all I know is that God knows better!
You're real question should be: if a person has truly been born of the spirit and has very God the creator of all living in side of him and they are to do all they do for the glory of the Father, can they end the life that God has given to them? I think not. If one has been born again, the things of this world(circumstances) would never be enough because all (circumstances) are brought into our life by God.The only suicide God asks for is the putting to death our old self and rising to walk in the newness of the life in the spirit.
When we put our faith in Jesus, when we let HIM be on the driver's seat of our lives, when we leave everything in HIS hands, when we take on our cross and follow Christ, when we take HIM as our saviour and live with the promise that we will see and live with HIM one day, when HE gives us the strength to fight Satan and be victorious, then we never ever hasten to pass through the door of death ourselves. HE sends HIS angels to take us home.
However, Satan is always in a hurry to increase his followers and to take them home.
I happen to agree with Adam on this.
It depends on the circumstances and only God knows for sure.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
It all goes back to the original question... if you are Truly saved... is there anything you can do to lose it? My answer is this... NO. If someone commits suicide but they had accepted the Lord Jesus as their savior they will be in heaven. BUT that is a big big IF.
I want to thank all of you for answering me on this topic. It has actually helped me with some of the teenagers I deal with on a weekly/daily basis through our youth group.
God Bless
Dondi,
I'm happy that we could be of help even though there are people on both sides of this issue here.
Some believe that a person can lose their salvation as the bible indicates, and others say not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
LOL... well I enjoyed the little dig... but my Bible doesn't "INDICATE" that at ALL! Good try though. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Classy,
Sorry but the bible DOES indicate that as I have pointed out earlier on this thread.
If a once saved person for some reason changes his/her mind and rejects God such as becoming an atheisty or secularist as some people have done they lose their salvation.
If a person for some reason refuses to forgive others they will NOT be fogiven so Jesus says.
Fred
But Fred, since a truly saved person no longer has his own mind but by the Holy spirit the mind of Christ, how can a person that really has the spirit of God within him reject God? I contend that if one is not faithful till the end that the spirit never was in them. They may have had an emotional experience or came forward, or made a decision, etc. But it is the Spirit that chooses where he will go and enter into. Salvation is the work of God from beginning to end. The author and finisher of our faith. It is not of ourselves lest anyone should feel pride that when they think THEY chose God rather than the other way around. If there is no thing we have done to initiate salvation(and there isn't) then there is nothing to stop it. (and there isn't) It is all grace(undeserved kindness) from God.
Acura,
Who was Jesus speaking to? Had he died on the cross or was he speaking to the Jews under the law... had we heard of grace, was the gospel as we know it being preached?
homesell,
I disagree. But I do understand the point you are trying to make.
I just think that having the holy spirit within us does not make us super persons who never sin or change.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Of course we all sin daily either in thought, word or deed (or the sin of not doing good when it was in your power to do so. And, yes we hopefully are changing daily as we become conformed to the Image of Gods son.
homesell
That is also why I believe a person CAN lose his/her salvation.
Fred
Philemon 1:23 There salute thee Epaphras, my fellowprisoner in Christ Jesus;
24Marcus, Aristarchus, Demas, Lucas, my fellowlabourers.
2 Timothy 4:9Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me:
10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica
I agree with Fred on this!
My only note is that we have to see that ''being saved'' is something different from ''entering the Kingdom of Heaven''.
When Jesus healed a person , many times He said that ''your faith saved you''. What was that person saved from?Did that person inherit the Kingdom of Heaven or was that person saved from Satan's bondage?
Being saved is us leaving ''Egypt'' , but there is a looooooong way to the promised land !
Exodus 32:7 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:
8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
adam7gur,
You are right about that.
And it was well presented.
Fred
I would bring out a "what if" if one can not lose their salvation, then would Judas be saved and in heaven, if one assumes when he was with and followed Christ he accepted him
My contention is that those who are saved have the holy spirit residing in them. Those not saved do not. Judas did not have the Holy spirit within him. The holy spirit was not given during the time Jesus was incarnate. This is also why the apostles "all forsook him" at the cross and Peter even denied him. Also why in Chapter 21 of John it shows them moping around fishing until Jesus came (after His death) and had them receive the Holy Spirit prior to Pentecost. In John 16:5-7 Jesus says, "It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor(Holy Spirit) will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
Fr_Chuck,
Excellent question.
I hope to see some answers to that.
Fred
Fr_chuck
You've set up a "straw man" argument for losing salvation once a person actually and truly is saved by assuming Judas"accepted" Jesus. Judas never accepted Jesus. He was the betrayer. In John 17:12, Jesus (referring to the twelve apostles) says, "While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
All of us, like Judas, are doomed to destruction UNLESS God, in His great mercy and lovingkindness chose us before the foundation of the world to be his own and live in us as we are living in Him, a special, peculiar, people.
Jeff,
Once again... whoo hoo and amen!
homesell
So Judas was chosen before the foundation of this world to be doomed.
My my, my; the God you believe in creates and chooses people to be doomed before they have a chance to be saved.
Sorry, but I can not believe that.
Jesus tells us that God IS love, thus NOT a creator of selected people who are predestined to be doomed.
I believe that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Please tell me if I've got the wrong end of the stick here?Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
But as you said people are already pre destined for destruction, that means that you can't do anything here on earth to change that, so what if you are pre destined for destruction?
Wouldn't that mean being a follower of christianity is pointless?
albear,
Excellent question.
I will watch for and answer.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Albear,
I didn't say it, I directly quoted the Bible with chapter and verse the words of Jesus. He would know. We are all created for Gods purposes to do what he wills. Do you think when God created lucifer that he didn't know what would happen?
As to destruction or life everlasting from the foundation of the world, we don't know who is saved and who isn't and we don't know who will be saved and who won't. "The Spirit goes where it wills." I do contend that when you are truly saved you know it and know that your future home is heaven and that we who are saved are currently seated in the heavenlies. John 10:14-15, "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me- just as the Father knows me and I know the Father - and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Who is pre destined for destruction? Whoever said that, has it all wrong. Yes, everything here on earth we do effects everything and everybody here now and later.Quote:
Originally Posted by albear
Following Christianity is not pointless.
OK this is the bit you quoted and your translation of it, rightQuote:
Originally Posted by homesell
And when it says 'EXCEPT THE ONE' couldn't that mean there was ever only one doomed to destruction, not 'all of us' as you say?
Wait hold on, I thought god gave everyone free will right?Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
So in which case we are not all created for gods purposes to do as he wills.
I can't say what I would believe if I believed in god or a follower of christianity, because that is a path I didn't travel down so I could have had totally different beliefs than those that I have now,
But "Do you think when God created lucifer that he didn't know what would happen?" I don't think he did know otherwise why even create him?
And you didn't really answer my question about why bother being a christian if were either saved or doomed before we started our life on earth.(could be said of all religions but since were on the chrisitianity board then christianity)?
Unless you did and I just missed it I which case sorry but could you explain it in more clear terms, thanks :)
Whether we have free will or not isn't stated explicitly in the scripture so I won't go into that here. You think that God didn't know what would happen when he created Lucifer? How could God who knows all, not know? Maybe you are putting God into a box and don't like it or don't agree with it when God doesn't do or act the way YOU think he should.
You said, "why bother being a Christian if you are either saved or doomed?" The answer is that the Christian life 1. Is the most wonderful life you can have 2. No one knows if they are saved or doomed until they become a Christian. 3. Christianity is different from all other religions in several ways. a. It isn't a religion it is a relationship. b. It is God reaching down and saving man in His mercy, whereas all other religion is doing "good works" to try to "get in good" with God c. We are the only group that is specifically told to love our enemies, pray for those that spitefully use us, and to help those who are against us if they need help.
I believe that what we do with our free will is what determines where we will go when we disencorpserate (our soul leaves our body).
God knows what our choices will be but we do not till we make them.
That is the kernel of the nut (the meat of life).
Peace and kindness,
Fred
hold on you said god imposes his will on us that means we have no free will, so by what you said gods will is for people to be gay(which I believe is a sin in christianity right?) people to kill other people and people to molest children some how I don't think that's what a god would will do you?Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
no I don't think god did know when he created lucifer, why create something you know is going to do evil, especially if you supposed to be god it doesn't make sense for a god who is supposed to be kind to all living creatures to create the devil does it.
oh I'm not putting god into a box or liking or not liking 'it' (what ever it is?)mainly because I don't really follow christianity I'm just trying to understand what your saying, as for thinking how I think he should your doing the same thing I'm just going off what other people have told me :)
your point 1. hmmm that's debatable and actually quite biased from your point of view you can't have experienced all other types of life so to be honest that just your opinion and not reall a fact.
2. you said they're already doomed or saved anyway and know weather or not they are won't change the out come.
3. have you followed all the other religions and chosen christianity ? Or is it as I suspect just your opinion.
and as for 'love our enemies' I sense a lot of distain for other religions in you, so you seem to be a bit of a hypocrite.
I hope you don't get defensive, I'm not trying to be offensive, I'm just trying to understand what your saying as it is quite confusing
albear
You've asked some interesting questions.
Though I have some answers, first I will look forward to the other answers.
Fred
albear
You've asked some interesting questions.
Though I have some answers, first I will look forward to the other answers.
Fred
Albear,
You sure aren't the first person to not understand what I'm saying. I'll try to clear things up.
I said I had no comment on whether we have free will or not. People choose to sin. God loves sinners(us) but hates the sin that we do.
Saying that it didn't make sense for God to create Lucifer knowing what would happen is what I talked about by God not acting the way you feel he should.
1. I have experienced life without Christ so I know what that is like and I can readily see the difference in the Christians I have known that have been rescued from a life of violence, drug addictions, alcoholism, greed, etc. that were all self destructive, so I have seen other lives without Christ. (Especially when I worked as a bouncer)
2. The outcome isn't changed but since we don't know the outcome there is the possibility that anyone may come to know Christ. As you might someday. When I was an unbeliever I thought there was no way in this world I would ever become a Christian but God, in his grace and mercy, saved me and changed me.
3. I have investigated other religions yes and even non-believers agree that all other religions require a list of things to do to "get closer" to God or get to heaven or paradise. Even atheism requires that you don't believe in God.
I don't see other religions as my enemy but yes, I am a hypocrite when it comes to letting God's love flow out from me at all times. In that, I fail.
Actually we are all hypocrites in the sense that we don't live up to our own made up code of conduct at all times.
I certainly took no offense at your response and appreciate you taking the time to point out where I didn't make myself clear.
homesell,
Well said.
Well done.
Fred
I believe suicide to be a way satan uses to gain control in our hearts. He fills us with despair and anger and sadness and hopelessness.
In god, all things are possible. Look how he tested Job. Job basically went through hell for his god. And it would have been very easy for him to lose faith in his lord and take the 'easy way out' by killing himself. But he didn't. He stuck it out. And is now dining in heaven with his god.
Simply put, suicide is an unforgivable sin. It cannot be forgiven because you cannot ask forgivenes once you have done it. And you can't simply say 'forgive me for what I'm about to do'
God says our bodies are our temples. And we are to treat them as such. Do not destroy maim or harm your body in any way. And suicide does just that.
jenniepepsi,
Right!
Thou shalt not murder.
To commit suicide is to murder ones self.
Fred
Didn't Jesus choose to die when he could have had the angels save him? Was that suicide?
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