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-   -   Do you believe predestination is a biblical teaching? (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=342538)

  • Apr 16, 2009, 07:30 PM
    classyT
    Do you believe predestination is a biblical teaching?
    I am curious as to what others Christians think of this subject. Some Christians believe Paul is teaching in predestination:

    Ephesians: 1:3-5

    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

    I heard a Pastor once say that what Paul meant was that we were predestined before the foundation of the world to be HOLY and without blame when we stand before the Lord. But he didn't believe that the Lord Jesus predestinated us to be saved. I'm not sure that I really bought into that... what do you think Paul meant?
  • Apr 17, 2009, 07:19 AM
    De Maria
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    I am curious as to what others Christians think of this subject. Some Christians believe Paul is teaching in predestination:

    Ephesians: 1:3-5

    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

    i heard a Pastor once say that what Paul meant was that we were predestined before the foundation of the world to be HOLY and without blame when we stand before the Lord. But he didn't believe that the Lord Jesus predestinated us to be saved. I'm not sure that i really bought into that...what do you think Paul meant?

    Yes, the Catholic Church has always taught "predestination". Calvin and Luther disagree on how it is understood by the Church.
  • Apr 17, 2009, 08:58 AM
    classyT
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by De Maria View Post
    Yes, the Catholic Church has always taught "predestination". Calvin and Luther disagree on how it is understood by the Church.

    Thanks for your response. I didn't realize that catholics taught it. So I know what John Calvin taught... I don't know what Martin Luther taught regarding predestination. I'm curious as to what the disagreement is, was? What is the catholic understanding and teaching?
  • Apr 17, 2009, 11:16 AM
    De Maria
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    Thanks for your response. I didn't realize that catholics taught it. So I know what John Calvin taught...i don't know what Martin Luther taught regarding predestination. I'm curious as to what the disagreement is, was? What is the catholic understanding and teaching?

    This is a very difficult subject for me, so excuse me if I make a mistake. I'm sure other knowledgeable Catholics can help keep me in line.

    As I understand the Catholic teaching, God is prescient. He knows everything. Therefore, God knows who is going to be in heaven and who isn't.

    But we don't. Therefore, we have to exercise our free will if we want to wind up in heaven.

    That's the gist of the Catholic teaching.

    The difference with Calvin has to do with irresistible grace. The Church teaches that man has the God given freedom to cooperate with or resist grace.

    Whereas, if I understand Calvin, he taught that God's grace was irresistible and thus, those who were predestined were chosen by God to get to heaven.

    In one word, you could describe the Catholic teaching as God's foreknowing. God knows who the elect will be.

    And Calvin's as Pre-Selection. God pre-selects the elect.

    I don't remember Luther's theology on the matter off hand. But I think it is similar to Calvin's.
  • Apr 17, 2009, 11:42 AM
    Tj3


    This is one of those questions where I do not fall into the usual camps. In past discussions on this topic, I have had Arminians accuse me of being hyper-Calvinist, I have had Calvinists accuse me of being hyper-Arminian, Protestants accuse me of being Catholic and Catholics accuse me of being Protestant - and sometimes all in the same thread. I figure that means that I must have struck a good middle ground :)

    I won't try to go into detail in this single post because I don't have time, other than to say that I think that both the Arminian and Calvinist camps are both partly right and partly wrong. I think that they both miss one key factor. When we ask if we are predestined or not, it presumes that everything happens on a time-line which is how we as humans see it because we are trapped inside the constraints of space and time. But God isn't.

    Both Arminianism and Calvinism as it pertains to salvation can be found and can be defended scripturally. But I believe both are showing only one dimension of God's plan for salvation. God both foreknows (which allows for our feewill), and God predestined us to be saved. These can b oth be true because God is outside of time. Both concepts work together because God see what will happen and see what has happened and has declared it outside of time.

    Think of it this way - when you drive down the highway, you see the car imm3ediately in front of you and the front of the car immediately behind you. You see what is happening in your iommediate "timeframe". Both the traffic helicoptor 2000 feet in the air sees both what is in your past (which you were several minutes ago) and sees the problems several minutes ahead of you because he is not subject to the flow of traffic. So when he tells yolu that you are about to slow down dramatically, is it a prediction or is it foreknowledge? Well, we know that he knows because he can see ahead, but he is also telling you what is in your future journey, so you might see it as both.

    This is only a somewhat faulty analogy to help us see what we can never experience while we are here are on earth. God faces no such limitation - He is omniscient - God can see perfectly our entire lives, our complete past, and our complete future. God is also omnipotent - He can declare what is to be. So how do these two factors work together with respect to our salvation? Is it God's foreknowledge, or is it God predestination? Both are true, both work together but in a way that we cannot fully comnprehend. We must accept Jesus as Saviour to be saved, and yet we cannot have faith unless the Holy Spirit gives us faith. One appears to require our full freewill, the other appears to be contrary to it, and yet both are true.

    My conclusion? I believe that anyone who tells you that they know perfectly how these two concepts works is wrong. I believe that anyone who says that it is all one way or the other is wrong. I also believe that bother of these concepts are true and are Biblical, and that we struggle with these because of our inability to understand things from God's perspective.

    Maybe not a completely satisfying answer for some, but one that I believe can be defended from scripture.
  • Apr 17, 2009, 12:44 PM
    Wondergirl

    Lutherans believe that election is only positive, that God wants all to be saved. Calvin (different from Luther) maintained that election is irreversible; you can't fall away from being elect.

    From rutgers.edu that says it better than I could --

    The main problem is that the Lutheran confessional documents make assertions that appear to be in conflict. Furthermore, they do not try to resolve the conflict, because they believe that doing so would require going beyond what God has revealed to us.

    The starting perspective is similar to Calvinism. Due to the fall, we are powerless to do anything related to salvation. It's not enough for God to offer us salvation. He has to work in us even to get to the point where we can listen to the offer. Just as Calvin, the Formula of Concord says that those who are saved are elected by God. God establishes all the means needed to redeem the elect. He doesn't just foresee their decision, but does what is needed to bring about their salvation. This is done primarily through preaching the Gospel and the sacraments. "In this his eternal counsel, purpose, and ordinance, God has not only prepared salvation in general, but he has also graciously considered and elected to salvation each and every individual among the elect who are to be saved through Christ, and also ordained that ... he wills by his grace, gifts, and effective working to bring them to salvation, and to help, further, strengthen and preserve them to this end."

    God only foresees the fate of the rest. There is no negative election. Those who reject the Gospel are responsible for their own fate.

    God wants all to be saved. The offer of the Gospel is seriously made to all.

    Before justification, we do not have the ability to do anything towards our salvation. Justification is done entirely by God, through his election of us in Christ. However justification renews our will. At this point the possibility exists either to continue in faith or to reject it. That is, it is possible to be justified and then fall away.

    God does foreknow who of those called will believe, who will persevere, and of those who fall away, who will return. In sum, God knows who will be saved and who will not. However he has not revealed this to us, and we are not free to speculate on it.
  • Apr 17, 2009, 01:32 PM
    classyT

    DeMaria,

    Thanks for your post. You helped clarify for me.

    TJ3,

    Wow, I have never heard it put that way and I think I makes sense... kinda. I do NOT understand it. But that is interesting. I'm going to re read that again and take it all in. I may have more questions for you. In fact... you can COUNT on it.

    Wondergirl,

    Thanks for the info. But what do you personally believe?
  • Apr 17, 2009, 01:35 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    wondergirl, Thanks for the info. But what do you personally believe?

    What I posted.
  • Apr 17, 2009, 01:43 PM
    classyT

    Wondergirl,

    Ok but it confuses me... it sounds like you lean more towards John Calvin. Maybe I didn't get enough sleep last night but put it in your own words. If you don't mind
  • Apr 17, 2009, 01:45 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    Wondergirl,

    Ok but it confuses me...it sounds like you lean more towards John Calvin. Maybe i didn't get enough sleep last night but put it in your own words. if you don't mind

    I believe what I posted is very clear and very much agrees with what Tom posted.
  • Apr 17, 2009, 02:01 PM
    classyT

    Wondergirl,

    Ok, well I don't think it is clear. I think it is confusing. I think TOM's post is confusing too.
  • Apr 17, 2009, 02:14 PM
    Wondergirl

    Would you like a chart to organize it? How can I make it clear to you?
  • Apr 17, 2009, 02:32 PM
    classyT

    Tell me in your own words... I think this is a confusing subject. Ok... how about this, I get that you agree with John Calvin for the most part.. can you explain what you don't agree with him about? I'm really not slow... ok, maybe I am..?. If you can make a chart... feel free to... ;)
  • Apr 17, 2009, 02:44 PM
    jakester
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Would you like a chart to organize it? How can I make it clear to you?

    Wondergirl - she's just trying to understand what your position is... you did already state what you believed but perhaps you could describe it in another way; that's what I believe she's asking. I think you're being a little hard on her.
  • Apr 17, 2009, 02:47 PM
    jakester
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    I am curious as to what others Christians think of this subject. Some Christians believe Paul is teaching in predestination:

    Ephesians: 1:3-5

    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

    i heard a Pastor once say that what Paul meant was that we were predestined before the foundation of the world to be HOLY and without blame when we stand before the Lord. But he didn't believe that the Lord Jesus predestinated us to be saved. I'm not sure that i really bought into that...what do you think Paul meant?

    classyT - this is one of those subjects that you cannot avoid when you read the bible because as you pointed out in Ephesians, Paul says that God did predestine us for adoption as his children. I am going to try to get some thoughts going on this post over the weekend.
  • Apr 17, 2009, 03:02 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jakester View Post
    Wondergirl - she's just trying to understand what your position is...you did already state what you believed but perhaps you could describe it in another way; that's what I believe she's asking. I think you're being a little hard on her.

    I'll wait until Tom comes back to the board, and the two of us can work together to explain.
  • Apr 17, 2009, 03:05 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jakester View Post
    Wondergirl - she's just trying to understand what your position is...you did already state what you believed but perhaps you could describe it in another way; that's what I believe she's asking. I think you're being a little hard on her.

    How is creating a chart being hard on her? I think in charts, with precise headings for columns and rows. If anything, I was bending over backwards to be helpful.
  • Apr 17, 2009, 03:32 PM
    classyT

    Jakester,

    I'd appreciate any of your thoughts.

    OK wondergirl... if you get a chance perhaps you and Tom can explain it better to me. This is hard for be to wrap my mind around. Go slow though..
  • Apr 17, 2009, 03:43 PM
    jakester
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    How is creating a chart being hard on her? I think in charts, with precise headings for columns and rows. If anything, I was bending over backwards to be helpful.

    Hey wondergirl - no, creating a chart isn't being hard on her; I'm saying that asking if she needed it charted out for her was a little harsh. I think you were dissing her, weren't you? Maybe I had you wrong.
  • Apr 17, 2009, 03:46 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jakester View Post
    hey wondergirl - no, creating a chart isn't being hard on her; I'm saying that asking if she needed it charted out for her was a little harsh. I think you were dissing her, weren't you? Maybe I had you wrong.

    I didn't say, "Do you need a chart." I said, "Would you like a chart to organize it? How can I make it clear to you?"

    You had me very wrong.
  • Apr 17, 2009, 04:48 PM
    N0help4u

    I see it mostly as Tj3 said
    God is outside of time and knows all things.
    We have free will but God already knew every day of our life, numbered every hair on our head, etc...
    I sort of think of it as God wrote and produced the play and we could ad lib but he already knew when and where we would exercise our free will.
    Sort of like watching a movie over again you already know exactly what is going to happen.
  • Apr 17, 2009, 04:53 PM
    N0help4u

    The Bible does say
    In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will. (Ephe 1:11)

    For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. (Romans 8:29).

    And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Romans 8:30).


    The Best Verses In The Bible | GraceThruFaith
  • Apr 17, 2009, 06:04 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    ok wondergirl...if you get a chance perhaps you and Tom can explain it better to me. This is hard for be to wrap my mind around. Go slow though..

    Hi Classy,

    I know that it is a topic that can be fairly hard to understand at the best of times, so I don't mind taking another shot at trying to clarify it.

    There are two options that we normally hear about as both being part of the picture.

    Arminiansim:
    Assumes that our decision comes first, and that God foreknows who will accept Jesus as Saviour. God does not predestine us to be saved.

    Calvinism: Assumes that we have no decision and that the whole decision was God's who predestined us before creation to be saved. We have no choice to reject salvation and no choice to be saved. This theological system assumes that God's decision came first, and we became saved second.

    So both systems depend upon a timeline.

    What I am saying is that both theological system are missing a key attribute of God - He is outside of space and time. If you draw a line from left to right on a piece of paper, that is the timeline that I refer to. To the left, the world is created. To the right is the final judgment. Everyone who ever lived and who ever will live is born and will die somewhere on that timeline. In this diagram, God is above the timeline looking at it from the side. Thus he sees the creation of the world, our birth, our decision for Christ and the final judgment simultaneously. Thus God foreknew because He can see our decision for Christ, and yet He predestined according to scripture. How do these two concepts work together? I don't think that we can fully comprehend it because we cannot understand what it means to be outside of time.

    When discussing this, I like this verse:


    Rom 8:28-30
    29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    NKJV


    Does that help?
  • Apr 17, 2009, 09:19 PM
    classyT

    Tj3,

    OK for me.. that was much clearer.THANK YOU! I agree but never heard it taught that way. I'm copying it for my bible study.. hope you don't mind.

    I guess I was always taught... Whosoever will may come but once you DO you learn you were predestined before the foundation of the World. That doesn't make any sense to me either.

    But I appreciate your clarifying the best you can. I'm going to spend some time studying it. I know people give you a hard time on here but I think you are a really smart guy. PLUS I respect your biblical knowledge and your ability to to break it down in simple terms.. although I got to tell you understanding God being out of space and time is STILL hard to grasp. But I believe it just the same!
  • Apr 18, 2009, 04:06 PM
    galveston

    A simple answer.

    Think about who Paul was writing to. He was addressing Christians, saved people, NOT those outside of the Kingdom. In fact, most of the Bible is addressed to believers.

    When you understand that, then it becomes clear that God has predestined that ALL saved people be conformed to the image of Christ. That is, He intends for us to become like our Elder Brother, Jesus Christ.

    Hope this is helpful.
  • Apr 18, 2009, 06:30 PM
    classyT

    Gal,

    That is what I heard a Pastor say recently. For me it was like he was saying we were predestined AFTER we became saved to be conformed to the image of Christ. That is a given!! But what about these verses in the Gospel of John, where Jesus is talking...

    All that the Father giveth me shall come to me...

    No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent me draw him...

    ... no man can come unto me except it were given unto him of my Father

    I agree with you that we need to understand who is writing and who it is written to... but these verses were NOT directly written to the church. Jesus was talking to the Jews before there was any knowledge of the church... Do you think they are relevant and tie into what the Apostle Paul said about predestination?

    P.S. thanks for keeping it simple.
  • Apr 18, 2009, 06:42 PM
    jakester

    classyT - the tension that exists in the topic of predestination is essentially in the following two questions:

    1) does God predestine believers according to his foreknowledge of their choices? Because God knows what choices people will make, since he is outside of time and space and knows the future, he knows who will choose to follow him. Based upon his divine foreknowledge of man's choices, he predestines man for salvation based upon his knowledge of the future.

    2) Does God choose those whom he will grant eternal life to irrespective of his divine foreknowledge? In other words, the fact that God is outside of time and space has no bearing on predestination because he is the one choosing man for eternal life, not man choosing eternal life.

    Books have been written which attempt to outline where the logic breaks down in each of these questions so there's no way Tj3 or me or Galveston can quickly summarize what the answer is in a few short paragraphs (sorry Galveston but it's really not so simple... no disrespect). The reason being is that if you start to follow the logic of either line of questioning above, you run into snags that need to be contemplated.

    Honestly, Tess, I don't know if I would even feel comfortable going into detail about it but if you have particular questions, perhaps we can talk through some. I subscribe to something called Divine Determinism which espouses both individual free will and divine sovereignty as compatible. I'm really not one to recommend books to people but I found this book by Jack Crabtree to be a very interesting read:

    The Most Real Being: A Biblical and Philosophical Defense of Divine Determinism

    I must make a disclaimer, though. This book is not an easy read but reading it is well worth the effort as it deals with some profound issues relating to our choices and God's control over his creation, etc.

    Regards.
  • Apr 18, 2009, 10:50 PM
    arcura
    classyT,
    I believe that due to the infinite and perfect love and mercy of God all souls are predestined to heaven, but it is up to each one of use to achieve that destiny through doing what the New Testament tells us to do.
    That is why the bible tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
    Yes, God already knows how judgment day will say who is going to go where, but we do not.
    Only God KNOWS for SURE who is going to go to heaven.
    Some folks THINK they know but they may be surprised on that day.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred
  • Apr 19, 2009, 07:08 AM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by arcura View Post
    classyT,
    I believe that due to the infinite and perfect love and mercy of God all souls are predestined to heaven, but it is up to each one of use to achieve that destiny through doing what the New Testament tells us to do.
    That is why the bible tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
    Yes, God already knows how judgment day will say who is going to go where, but we do not.
    Only God KNOWS for SURE who is going to go to heaven.
    Some folks THINK they know but they may be surprised on that day.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred

    Right, Fred, we cannot judge the salvation of others, unless their testimony is clear that they have rejected Jesus as Savior. We can know ourselves if we are saved because scripture says that we can have assurance of salvation.
  • Apr 19, 2009, 10:51 AM
    classyT

    Fred,

    You bring up GREAT points... What do you think the Lord means to work out our faith in fear and trembling? I'd like everyone's thoughts on that too.
  • Apr 19, 2009, 11:02 AM
    classyT
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jakester View Post
    classyT - the tension that exists in the topic of predestination is essentially in the following two questions:

    1) does God predestine believers according to his foreknowledge of their choices? Because God knows what choices people will make, since he is outside of time and space and knows the future, he knows who will choose to follow him. Based upon his divine foreknowledge of man's choices, he predestines man for salvation based upon his knowledge of the future.

    2) Does God choose those whom he will grant eternal life to irrespective of his divine foreknowledge? In other words, the fact that God is outside of time and space has no bearing on predestination because he is the one choosing man for eternal life, not man choosing eternal life.

    Books have been written which attempt to outline where the logic breaks down in each of these questions so there's no way Tj3 or me or Galveston can quickly summarize what the answer is in a few short paragraphs (sorry Galveston but it's really not so simple...no disrespect). The reason being is that if you start to follow the logic of either line of questioning above, you run into snags that need to be contemplated.

    Honestly, Tess, I don't know if I would even feel comfortable going into detail about it but if you have particular questions, perhaps we can talk through some. I subscribe to something called Divine Determinism which espouses both individual free will and divine sovereignty as compatible. I'm really not one to recommend books to people but I found this book by Jack Crabtree to be a very interesting read:

    The Most Real Being: A Biblical and Philosophical Defense of Divine Determinism

    I must make a disclaimer, though. This book is not an easy read but reading it is well worth the effort as it deals with some profound issues relating to our choices and God's control over his creation, etc.

    Regards.

    Thanks for the info. I know this is a sensitive topic and frankly Calvinism is NOT the Gospel.. the gospel is Whoesoever will may come. I am going to study this out until I am clear in my mind and I will see if I can locate the book you suggested.

    You and Tom blow me away with your biblical knowledge are your ability to convey what you know. Tackling something like this and making someone like ME understand it, isn't easy. I believe that divine will and individual free will is compatible because the Bible teaches both. Will I ever understand it?. I don't know. But I wanted a better grasp of understanding... so I'm going to roll up my sleeves and tackle it best I can.
  • Apr 19, 2009, 11:14 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    Fred,

    You bring up GREAT points...What do you think the Lord means to work out our faith in fear and trembling? I'd like everyones thoughts on that too.

    It's wasn't the Lord who said that, but St. Paul who wrote it to the church at Philippi, Philippians 2:12-13, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

    Paul tells the church members that, while he is absent, to work out their own salvation in trembling and fear (v12), and clearly tells them in v13 just how they will accomplish that. It is God who works in you (and us) both to will and do [Greek, energeo]. Paul is urging the Philippians, even as they have listened to and obeyed his teaching of the word when he was with them, now that he is away from them, they should continue to read and be obedient to the word. They are on their own and must manage without Paul's leadership, but God will be there with them in their hearts "to will and to do." God is the active one within us; he is working in us so that we move forward with good works toward others.
  • Apr 19, 2009, 11:51 AM
    classyT

    The Apostle Paul wrote it... but ultimately it is God's thoughts and words.

    But why with fear and trembling? I guess my point is that some people teach we can lose our salvation. I personally don't think so and I believe the word is pretty clear on the security of our salvation.
  • Apr 19, 2009, 12:45 PM
    galveston
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    Gal,

    That is what i heard a Pastor say recently. For me it was like he was saying we were predestined AFTER we became saved to be conformed to the image of Christ. That is a given!!!!! But what about these verses in the Gospel of John, where Jesus is talking ...

    All that the Father giveth me shall come to me...

    No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent me draw him...

    ...no man can come unto me except it were given unto him of my Father

    I agree with you that we need to understand who is writing and who it is written to....but these verses were NOT directly written to the church. Jesus was talking to the Jews before there was any knowledge of the church.....Do you think they are relevant and tie into what the Apostle Paul said about predestination?

    P.S. thanks for keeping it simple.

    Jesus was telling Jewish people that The Father and The Son are not the same person, and that it is the Father that gives faith to hearers that they CAN accept the Son.

    Companion verses are those saying that Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father, thus showing the perfect harmony between Father and Son. You can't have one without the other!
  • Apr 19, 2009, 01:07 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    But why with fear and trembling?

    You wouldn't be a bit fearful if your trusted leader left your church, and you and your fellow members were left to your own devices? When our dear minister left our congregation to retire to Texas, we were scared to death and trembled at the thought of finding someone else who would be able to shepherd us as well as he had. Our only comfort, like that of the Philippians, was that God was in charge.
  • Apr 19, 2009, 01:09 PM
    sndbay
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    But why with fear and trembling? I guess my point is that some people teach we can lose our salvation. I personally don't think so and I believe the word is pretty clear on the security of our salvation.



    Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
  • Apr 19, 2009, 03:10 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    You wouldn't be a bit fearful if your trusted leader left your church, and you and your fellow members were left to your own devices? When our dear minister left our congregation to retire to Texas, we were scared to death and trembled at the thought of finding someone else who would be able to shepherd us as well as he had. Our only comfort, like that of the Philippians, was that God was in charge.

    I am not quite sure what you are talking about here. Could you please clarify? Who left the church and what does that have to do with salvation?
  • Apr 19, 2009, 03:33 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    I am not quite sure what you are talking about here. Could you please clarify? Who left the church and what does that have to do with salvation?

    Post #32.
  • Apr 19, 2009, 03:36 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Post #32.

    I cannot see that Paul's absence would impact how they work out their salvation. And why would Paul tell them to be in fear and trembling if he was gone? Wouldn't it be more likely that he would tell them to keep their eyes on the Lord if he had any concern about their stability in his absence? That would be more consistent with his other writings.
  • Apr 19, 2009, 03:40 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    I cannot see that Paul's absence would impact how they work out their salvation. And why would Paul tell them to be in fear and trembling if he was gone? Wouldn't it be more likely that he would tell them to keep their eyes on the Lord if he had any concern about their stability in his absence? That would be more consistent with his other writings.

    Post #35.

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