This is a very simple question, no conditions, no presuppositions. What is ‘Church’?
JoeT
|
This is a very simple question, no conditions, no presuppositions. What is ‘Church’?
JoeT
Hi, JoeT777!
Since you've posted this in the Christianity forum topic area, I presume that you're asking about what is the definition of a Christian church? Or maybe, what is a Christian church to a Christian? Maybe even, what is church in general to a person, in general?
There might be even other interpretations as to what you're asking, so what specifically is it that you mean, please?
I'll be happy to give you my definition as to what I think that a Christian church is according to my understanding, but I would appreciate some clarification as what you mean by your question.
I don't mean to put a "bump in the road" so soon, but I hope that you see my point here.
Thanks!
church is a body of believers in Jesus Christ. The members make the church acts 14:27. People have receiced Jesus as their savior.
Are you religious or are you saved? 
During a religious ceremony, someone sprinkled water on my head. Religion teaches that when infants go through this ceremony, they will go to Heaven. They gave me a certificate saying, you are baptized unto salvation. Growing up, I believed what I was taught.
Then, one day I listened to some street preachers. I started to wonder if I really was going to Heaven. I read my Bible and realized that I'm a sinner on my way to Hell. The Bible says that Jesus came into the world to save sinners. So I asked Jesus to forgive me of my sins and save me. Now I know that when I die, I will go to Heaven. Let me ask you a question. Are you sure you will go to Heaven when you die?
Here's how you can know:
Realize that you are a sinner.  Romans 3:23 says “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”
Realize that the punishment on sin is eternal death in Hell.  Romans 6:23 says “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Realize that Jesus died in your place.  Romans 5:8 says “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”
Trust only Jesus as your Savior.  Romans 10:9 says “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”
Ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins and save you.  Romans 10:13 says “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
You can call upon the Lord by praying something like this:
Dear Jesus, I admit that I'm a sinner, deserving of Hell. I believe you died on the cross for my sins and rose from the dead. Please forgive me of my sins and take me to heaven when I die. In Jesus name, Amen.
God's assurance of salvation.  John 10:27-28 says “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”
Good works will not save you. Ephesians 2:8-9 says “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
Jesus is the only way to Heaven. John 14:6 says “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
I then got baptized as a public testimony of my salvation. This is my first act of obedience. I now hear the gospel preached at a Bible believing church called Faith Baptist Church in La Crosse, WI. If you would like to visit, the address is 3615 S. 28th St. Phone (608) 788-1165
Psalms 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
Fair enough. Helper's suggestion is right though, I'm looking for the variety of answers that might get at the root of the question. There should be a number of different definitions. If somebody lost his memory as a result of hitting that 'bump in the road' how would you respond to the question, 'what is a Church'. We say we're 'going to Church', what is a Church? Is it one person, two persons, a building, a theological philosophy, simply holding a belief in Christ, is it reading a book. I guess I don't have any other way to phrase it, 'What is Church'?Quote:
Originally Posted by Clough
Don't make the mistake that I haven't already worked out an answer for myself (well OK, I almost have it worked – all I lack is a few details), I'm just curious as to how my opinion might compare with others.
JoeT
So, you would still seem to be just looking for a general definition as to what is a church, as defined based upon a general belief and understanding and not necessarily what a Christian thinks of what a church is.
Would that be correct?
Church is the body of believers that meet to honor, worship and spend time together in the presence of the LORD. They meet to learn His Truth, build up each other and grow together in relationship with each other and with Him. Church can be held in a building, outside, a home or anywhere else two or more believers meet together. It is not limited to the common idea of the "building" that most hold. Jesus said "wherever two or more are gathered together in My Name, I am there."
A coming together of people in worship.
Excellent answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by savedsinner7
Can you flesh this out a bit?Quote:
Originally Posted by kbrockway
This sinner would agree on many details of your testimony. I do agree that our central focus ought to be Christ. However, I’d suggest that it’s “with fear and trembling [we] work out [our] salvation.” Eph 2:12 not by faith alone; but faith with works. That being as it may, I hadn’t contemplated discussing the topic in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by kbrockway
Thank you for your testimony.
JoeT
Eph 2:12 reads much different in my Bible:Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Eph 2:11-13
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands-- 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
NKJV
I don't see works anywhere involved in salvation.
Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV
Not necessarily 'simple', just how you would define what it means to you. I sense a bit of trepidation; I don’t shy away from a good debate. To be honest I didn’t stop to contemplate just how complex this simple little question could get. I can understand your anxiety, as soon as you get beyond ‘Church’ as a building, there's a host of different ecumenical problems I hadn’t stopped to think about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clough
JoeT
A number of years ago, my kids and I took a trip. On a Sunday morning, we walked down to the Mississippi river, prayed and reflected on some things. As far as I am concerned, we had been to church. We are all Christians.
By the way, I'm not anxious and I'm certainly not looking for some kind of debate.
Thank you!
I figured that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clough
Okay...
Joe,
I've been informed that when Jesus said that He would build His Church on a rock that He spoke of His Assembly in the language of the time in His land.
To me His assembly was His immediate followers who were apostles and disciples.
It was they who believed in Him, followed Him, and who did what He told them to do.
So I believe that even yet today His Church is 1. Christian and 2. Made up of followers LIKE those of His immediate assembly during His time on earth.
At that time they met together in various rooms or homes or out in the open somewhere like a hill top or garden.
Later, within the first hundred years some of the members of His assembly built special buildings in which to meet and worship.
Parts of some of those buildings still exist in various places such as the one that Saint Thomas and some followers built a Church Building in what today is India.
In places like ancient Rome where they were persecuted they met in secret often in homes or in the catacombs beneath the city.
I note that the Churches mentioned in the bible are of the sorts I have mentioned and that they were all started by the first apostles and maintained by them and disciples.
So I believe that a Church is not necessarily a building but can be and that it has a human leader such as an apostle and that it is made up of followers of Jesus Christ who meet in worship of God and do the things that Jesus instructed them to do such as pray, commune, and baptize as He taught.
Thank you for asking that question.
It caused me to really think about that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Genesis 28:20-22 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God: And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
__________________________________________
But in the last days it shall come to pass: But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.
Mic 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
_____________________________________________
2 Cr 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
The Temple known as Christ Jesus
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
_____________________________ _______________
Not desiring death which is of satan's work, But life with our Lord
2 Cr 5:8-9 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
_____________________________________________
What shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1 Peter 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
It depends upon the context. If you want to speak about the one true church that Jesus spoke about, the body of Christ, it is the body of all who have been saved by the true gospel who have existed since creation. It is not a denomination, an organization or a building.
If you want to speak of a manmade organization, we often call such organizations churches. But they are named this despite the fact that we know that each one contains unsaved persons. Some more than others, but membership in such an organization cannot guarantee membership in the body of Christ, so we know that there is a different.
If you want to speak about the building, it is so named because the original intent of such buildings was to house worship of the true God by the true church. But a building in temporary and the true church, the body of Christ is not.
My short answer:
The Church is the Body of Christ on Earth.
Its mission, briefly, is to exhibit the love of God, cast out evil spirits, heal the sick in body, and occasionally raise the dead, literally.
I agree. Salvation is the work that Jesus did for us. Following that is sanctification, the work of the Holy Spirit to bring us to faith and to inspire us not only to love God but also to love others (good works, our thank-you to God).Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Hello, WG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I don't believe I've ever read your take on the second chapter of the Epistle of James. What do you make of James 2.24, for instance: "See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."
How do you understand the relation between justification and salvation?
Akoue,
The WORK of The Church is to preach and teach about the gospels and salvation.
There are many references in the bible about works that should be done such as Baptism, the Eucharist, Loving one another, (This commandment I gibe you to love one another as I have loved you) and don't forget the faith itself is a work.
Jesus told His apostles (soon to be bishops of The Church) what work to do and sent them on a practice mission on which they reported back to Him.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Jesus did the work of justification (He saved us). The HS does the work of sanctification. Faith without works is dead, yes, but works do not save us. Salvation is by faith alone, and good works follow faith -- as I said above, good works are our thank-you to God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
In the verse from James, James rebukes Christians who use salvation by "faith alone" as an excuse for not having to do good works. He reminds us that God forgives and "justifies" us for Christ's sake and instills faith in us through the power of His Spirit Who also inspires us to do good works. Thus, good works always go hand in hand with "justification," but do not contribute in any way to our being declared righteous before God.
"Justification" and salvation" refer to the free gift of forgiveness, eternal life, and righteousness in God's sight which are granted by Him to sinners through faith in Christ alone.
This is a good reason why the church must be the body of believers. Non-believers do you preach the gospel. Organized churches can be used by the body of Christ to help spread the gospel, but organized churches will always be a mix of saved and unsaved persons.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
I wasn't ignoring the responses given here. I just had a fun day in training, repelling off a fire training tower. Hey, not so bad for a 50 + something with 6 grandbabies. After the Hail Mary walk across the precipice, on the way down, it came to me how the repelling line, the belay line along with the climbing commander where a lot like 'Church'. I guess I could have thrown the rope over the edge and started a climb down on my own, but I can assure you I would have had firsthand experience with the “splatter factor,” (SF= Mass x Acceleration). It was with fear and trembling that accompanied my faith in the rope and team members as I went over the edge. And once on the other side it opened an entire world in the vertical dimension, from terra firma to the heavens. However, I did notice amount of work it took to move in the heavenly direction.
Of those who did respond, I noticed most contended that Church is little more than a collection of believers, just throw the line over and start climbing types. Only one contended that believers had to be of like minded, agreeing with each other. What about those who aren't of like mind? In that light, I wonder what should be made of the hierarchy mentioned in scripture.
“Now you are the body of Christ and members of member. And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors: after that miracles: then the graces of healings, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches.” 1 Cor 12:27.
JoeT
Joe,
I do believe that real Christians are of like mind in some ways.
They just about have to be.
But just think of the many callings that make up that one body.
There is bound to be a lot of mind differences.
Also consider the fact that there are over 30,000 different denominations plus many so-called non-denominations.
I believe that there are Christians scattered throughout them with mind differences.
I have previously given here what my belief of what Church is and thus some of those denominations no not fit what I believe "church" is, but I also believe that there are Christians who are not in what I believe is real "church".
After all Jesus is the supreme and final Judge of who is Christian and those who will be saved.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Church is a place to meet with other believers, even if you are not a believer yourself. It is a place to fellowship with other people, to learn about God and His love for you, and to seek help if you need it. Church is a worry free place, and a place to praise God who created you. For long time believers, it's a place to worship and praise, but either new believers or even non believers can go for inspiration. Church really is a remarkable place... it reminds me of what is really important in life, and puts my week in a better perspective - I remember to look up instead of elsewhere. =)
Ann Landers: "Church is a hospital for sinners."
Wondergirl,
Ann is very good with thoughts like that.
Thanks,
Fred
"Church" to the Greeks in Jesus day was an assembly of people "set apart" to govern the affairs of a state; a parliament or congress. The Romans used it to include a group sent to a conquered area to alter the culture until it became like Rome (under the Pax Romana).
Jesus said He would build His church through us. He intends us to legislate SPIRITUALLY for Him to extend His kingdom over the earth.
Much of the "church" today thinks it better to adopt the culture of the world to "win them" (to what?).
To be lights (beacons)and salt(enhancement to life) seems to be too hard
revdrgade,
Your post e=was very interesting to me.
Thanks,
Fred
Joe I trust you have read further in verses concerning this scripture and it's words of wisdom posted..Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
1 Cor 12:29-30 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
The answer is No, and the reason why it is no, was given in the last verse..
1 Cor 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
Covet earnestly means they desire earnestly, in pursue, or strive after the best gifts: and yet what? Christ shows the more excellant gift, and the way... Points directly to Matthew 16:21
Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Fred so much of what you are saying is true. And I believe much of what has happened falls on satan's temptations to beguile the world.. We are warned that hourly satan works at tempting wickedness and sin. And we have been warned to remain armed with Christ, and His way in righteousness. Doing the will of God and staying in the light of the law.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Today we see the results of what is written for the end times, where God is the fire in anger because many do not do His will. Man's desire, wanting to show a better way, and the teachings split into many branches.. God does promise to cut off parts that are not His Will.
A church was (Genesis 28:20-22) where Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God: And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.
And we are to do as (1 Peter 4:19) says: Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
Yet we see was is spoken of in (Revelation 8: 11) And the name of the star is called Wormwood/beguiled to bitterness ... and the third part of the waters which is the people became wormwood... and many men died of the waters which is the opposite of living water... because they were made bitter.
The bitter is the beguiled Word of God that satan has twisted in the minds of men. And we see the signs that (Matthew 24:7) speaks of famines which is hunger for the Truth in The Word of God.
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Faith in Christ following His way... works in doing God's Will as a child of God
What about the Mystical Body of Christ? Is there any such of a thing? This understanding of 'Church' has been held by the Catholic Church since Christ's ascension.
The Mystical Body of Christ:
• The members of the Church are bound together by a supernatural life communicated to them by Christ through the sacraments (John 15:5). Christ is the centre and source of life to Whom all are united, and Who endows each one with gifts fitting him for his position in the body (John 15:7-12). These graces, through which each is equipped for his work, form it into an organized whole, whose parts are knit together as though by a system of ligaments and joints (John 15:16; Colossians 2:19).
• Through them, too, the Church has its growth and increase, growing in extension as it spreads through the world, and intensively as the individual Christian develops in himself the likeness of Christ (John 15:13-15).
• In virtue of this union the Church is the fulness or complement (pleroma) of Christ (Ephesians 1:23). It forms one whole with Him; and the Apostle even speaks of the Church as "Christ" (1 Corinthians 12:12).
• This union between head and members is conserved and nourished by the Holy Eucharist. Through this sacrament our incorporation into the Body of Christ is alike outwardly symbolized and inwardly actualized; "We being many are one bread, one body; for we all partake of the one bread" (1 Corinthians 10:17). ( Source: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Mystical Body of the Church )
How does one have such a thing without being One with the Church as Christ is One with the Father? (John 17:20 seq.) Or is the Church simply all Christians who read the Bible?
JoeT
The Church is the house of our Lord and this is true and valid for all Christian denominations. It is also valid for all religions if we consider the different names a Church can receive. For the Jews, a Sinagoge. For the Muslims, a Mosque. For the Hindus, a Mandir. Pagoda is how in most Buddhist countries is named the Temple devoted for prayer. Sintoists normally use the word Shrine…Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
However, in every case, and irrespective of the name, a Church or Temple is the place dedicated to worship God and to pray.
From our own Christian point of view, the Church implies basically the entire religious body at a worldwide level formed by the different congregations, members, and clergy. In the case, of course, of the RCC the Church is being symbolized by the Pope and the Vatican, in Rome.
In this case the building is not so important. Any place can be good enough to pray and worship our Lord. At home, in a traditional church or in the middle of nowhere!
;)
Joe, This is my belief in what scripture is telling us... The church is the gospel teaching of love for Christ. Teaching us His ways, and of His love that was given to us. Trusting in Christ, and being one with Him. Exampled as how Christ was one with His Father. We each our One with Christ.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
1 Cor 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
Why? because it was the crowd that caused many to follow in doubt... Even Aaron went with the crowd in what they gathered to say while Moses was gone.
Spoken as do.. not some , not part , not other then... Only do, as all in the glory of God!
Remember:1 Cor 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Each individual should be lead by their own conscience and not by someone else, and no one will be judged by anyone other then their own actions.
And we are not to lead others to sin by our ways of life, this includes Jews, Gentiles, and the church: by trying to please men in all things, not to profit yourself, nor the to profit many, but rather to save them. (1 Cor 10: 32-33)
Provoking God to His anger in fire is when we(individual or group) feel, we can save others by having them follow our ways.
1 Cor 10:22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
His Way.. and trust in Him
1 Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].
Be one with Christ, His ways
Yes, each that walk in Christ, become one with Christ. That is true for many who also make their own choice to follow Christ.
1 Cor 10:16-17 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, [and] one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
Because we can be sanctified by Christ, His power and strength, it is written and was fulfilled. Revealed unto each of us, as God Wills... John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Their word is to be what is written in scripture. Their testmony and teaching of Truth. That which was witnesses as evident identity: The church is the gospel teaching of love for Christ. Teaching us His ways, and of His love that was given to us. Trusting in Christ, and being one with Him. Exampled as how Christ was one with His Father. We each our One with Christ.
Perhaps, rather, since the denomination began.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
If you assume that the one true church is a denomination, then you will get one answer. If you assume that the one true church is the body of Christ (body of all believers) as scripture indicates, you will tet a different answer. If we assume that the church is, as scripture suggests, the body of all who are believers, then that unity is achieved through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, who indwells all who have received Jesus as Saviour.Quote:
How does one have such a thing without being One with the Church as Christ is One with the Father? (John 17:20 seq.) Or is the Church simply all Christians who read the Bible?
JoeT
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
First:
1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
Noted: He Will
United when converted to children of God within the House of God to give praise and glory to our Lord.
Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
I would agree that church is “an assembly” or an assembly place. But I see that place as being much more than a prayer assembly.Quote:
Originally Posted by gromitt82
While we can and should pray at, work, at home, or at play, I don’t hold that Church is of little importance. We know this to be so because ‘Church’ also means the entire body of believers, the Church Militant, those believers on earth; the Church Suffering, those believers in a state of purgatory; and the Church Triumphant, those believers in Heaven. “A body of men united together by the profession of the same Christian Faith, and by participation in the same sacraments, under the governance of lawful pastors, more especially of the Roman Pontiff, the sole vicar of Christ on earth" (St. Bellarmine, De Eccl. III, ii, 9)Quote:
Originally Posted by gromitt82
This Church is endowed with a sacrificial system, it is God’s Kingdom in Divine revelation, governed by an authority appointed by Christ.
You’ve lost me with most of this; I don’t see the relevance with ‘Church’.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
"For we, being many, are one bread, one body: all that partake of one bread." (1 Cor 10:17) One, all the same, though made up of many different ingredients, we make together one bread. All partake of that one bread in the Eucharist, a sacramental blessing that can only be formed in the one (homogeneous) Mystical Body of Christ. “One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all”; all of us in the Body of Christ. Eph 4:6 We know this because Christ prayed “And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me. That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.” John 17:20-21Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Applying a varying faiths for different people based on ‘worketh that one and selfsame spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will’ applies to charismatic gifts, not to varying faiths. (see post 37 - link).
To hold this view that each different church, each different faith, can believe in the absolute truths revealed by God in such a subjective manner implies that our God is schizophrenic. He tells the Baptist one belief, the Lutherans another belief and the Catholics yet something else? For as the body is one and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they... Now you are the body of Christ and members of member. 1 Cor 12:12,27 Each individual member is bound into the body with the sinew of faith guided by its head, Christ. How do you make sense of a schizophrenic God?
JoeT
Joe,
I believe that there are many churches but only a very few that fit into my definition of a true full Church.
Very few have an apostle servant leader.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
All true churches have an Apostle leader. There is only one Apostle on earth today according to scripture and that is Jesus.
Heb 3:1-2
3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,
NKJV
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:36 AM. |