Ask Me Help Desk - Was she ever a Christian?

Was she ever a Christian?

Ok, I already know that we can not truly understand someone else's heart and whether someone is saved or not. Having said that would YOU ( I'm speaking to Christians) own a person like this as a sister in the Lord?.

I know a woman who was involved for YEARS with the REORGAINIZED church of latter day saints.. they have different beliefs from LDS. Anyway her mother who was a Christian prayed for her for and eventually she left that denomination and proclaimed Christ as her personal savior. Her husband was NOT saved and a lot of her family still stayed with that church. She began to grow in her walk with Christ as far as I could tell and was interested in learning so she attended a bible church. Within the last few years I noticed her saying odd things that were not biblical. She now seems to have embraced Universalism. She has decided that it isn't NOT necessary to understand and believe the gospel now because all will be saved in the end. This is NOT biblical... one verse she has used over and over is the one that states Every knee will bow and every knee will confess. I have explained to her that it doesn't EVER say that every knee WILL WANT TO BOW... they will HAVE to. So, my question is... would you own her as a sister in the Lord a little confused... Or a confused woman in need of real salvation. I don't know what to think?

The latter. She is a person (woman man does not matter) who is deeply confused, and/or easily swayed. For some reason she is like the parable of the seed. Some lands on the path and does not grow. Some lands in the bushes and springs up, but is chocked out by the weeds. Other lands on fertile ground and springs up and produces an abundant crop.

The Bible tells of many who will be deceived. She is deceived. She cannot see Truth.

Before reading the answears , I thought about Saul the first king of Israel and I think it fits very much with the parable that 450donn mentions above!
He was anointed,he started walking with the Lord,but later he was deceived!

Adam,

You are right! I find this very sad indeed and yet wasn't it the Lord himself who said in that day people will stand before him saying Lord, Lord haven't I done this and that in your name but he replies... I NEVER knew you. Just because someone proclaims to KNOW him... doesn't make it so. It saddens me and frightens me.. but again doesn't the Bible teach not to lay hands suddenly on any man? I guess there is a reason for that. Thanks for your insite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by savedsinner7

The Bible tells of many who will be deceived. She is deceived. She cannot see Truth.

Ok... I hear you but does that mean she NEVER really believed the truth? This is confusing to me. I just know I cannot give up what I believe for something that seems more "reasonable".

Classy,
Remember that even Satan, the most beautiful of all the angles, believed! Believing in one thing and knowing in your heart can be a totally different thing when it comes to the real world. I believe in my heart that I am saved, but if I do not walk that walk and talk that talk and have the word of God sealed in my soul it is all for nothing.

Walk on classyT!
You're in good hands!

Who are we to judge whether she was or was not Christian? There are much to the heart that we may never know. It does seem that she is confused about how it all "works" thinking that all will be saved in the end. She may be struggling inside and may not talk about it... She could be still trying to figure it all out... I believe that religion and spirituality is a personal thing and connects everyone individually in different ways.

The bible has been interpreted many ways and I know she isn't the only thinking this but I feel in my heart that we can't tell who or who hasn't been "saved" nor is it our business to judge... Only God knows this.

If you told her what its about, in the end its her choice. We must trust God's plan and there will be a time (I believe for some its purposely timed by God) when they feel/see the truth... And we have to have faith in that. And even people who never believe, I have full faith that God will judge appropriately and I could never say someone will be doomed to hell. Cause honestly, I wouldn't know. Only He knows.

I'm not trying to attack, but I feel as I had matured spiritually a bit later in life and had heard people say similar things but no one truly knew what I felt inside and I never felt I needed to appease anyone by telling them. So I guess, never assume anything about a person.

o
While I believe that many people in false churches are truly 'saved' she sounds too confused and thinking in human terms to justify things but far from God, It sounds like she is one of the type in the parable of the sower that hear the word but it doesn't take root.
I always hear people saying ''All roads lead to the airport'' and always wanted a good reply to that, God gave me the reply the other day "Not if you make a wrong turn going away from the airport."

She may very well one day find the way and these are the roads she has to go down but she needs to get the confusion out. Hopefully you can help her.

I agree very much with Don. Adam and others here.
The Lord will be the one to decide about her.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by classyT

Ok...i hear ya but does that mean she NEVER really believed the truth? This is confusing to me. I just know I cannot give up what I believe for something that seems more "reasonable".

Not the whole truth. Those who become deceived are still looking for answers that feed the flesh. If we truly give up our understanding for His, we will not be deceived because we won't look within ourselves or to the world for answers.

savedsinner7
True.
We must look to God for accurate answers
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by 450donn

Classy,
Remember that even Satan, the most beautiful of all the angles, believed! Believing in one thing and knowing in your heart can be a totally different thing when it comes to the real world. I believe in my heart that I am saved, but if I do not walk that walk and talk that talk and have the word of God sealed in my soul it is all for nothing.

450donn,

True enough but remmber Jesus didn't die for satan. I don't know... all my life that I can remember I believed in one way and only one. But it took accepting it, receiving it as a gift. It was clear as crystal for me, but now I look around and I hear people that once proclaimed to know him change their tune so to speak. I mean if you listen to Billy Graham in a YouTube I have it will blow you away. What in the world is going on... listen closely to what he is saying:

YouTube - Robert Schuller And Billy Graham Speaking Wide Acceptance

Quote:

Originally Posted by classyT

450donn,

true enough but remmber Jesus didn't die for satan. I don't know..... all my life that I can remember I believed in one way and only one. But it took accepting it, receiving it as a gift. It was clear as crystal for me, but now i look around and I hear people that once proclaimed to know him change their tune so to speak. I mean if you listen to Billy Graham in a youtube i have it will blow you away. What in the world is going on.....listen closely to what he is saying:

YouTube - Robert Schuller And Billy Graham Speaking Wide Acceptance

I saw this clip in context when it was originally broadcast, and Schuller / Graham went on to explain the intent in detail, and that intent being that one need not accept Jesus to be saved, one can be a Hindu, or a Muslim or whatever and still be saved by Jesus even if they do not know Him.

This is clearly contrary to scripture:

Acts 4:11-12
11 This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.' 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
NKJV

Tj3,

WOW! I mean wow. It is hard to believe that Billy would say that. I have heard Joel Osteen hem hall around on Larry King and he refused to say anyone was headed to hell but that he believed that Jesus was the only way. He was being milqutoast but what Billy Grahm said is downright scary.

Let me ask you this? Should we question whether someone is a Christian? Is that fair?? From that statement would you question his salvation.. or again maybe just his age and health.

She does sound confused and unclear regarding the gospel. I believe that unless one's testimony is in alignment with the gospel, we need to be careful. There can be cases in which a very new Christian may be still learning, and may come out with some beliefs which still need, shall we say refinement. This case that you present is a after several years, so it raises additional concerns.

I don't think that I could assume that she was saved based upon what you have summarized here. I have seen cases where people have been saved while in cults or churches that were not sound, but those cases are the exception not the rule, and a person who is truly saved would be drawn to what the Bible teaches by the Holy Spirit indwelling them.

I think that the way to deal with a situation like this is to assume that she is not saved and in need of understanding the true gospel without coming out and saying it to her. If she is in fact saved, but confused, then she should be drawn to God's word through the drawing of the Holy Spirit indwelling her. If she is not saved (as I suspect is the case), then she needs to understand what the true gospel says.

Quote:

Originally Posted by classyT

Tj3,

WOW! i mean wow. It is hard to believe that Billy would say that. I have heard Joel Osteen hem hall around on Larry King and he refused to say anyone was headed to hell but that he believed that Jesus was the only way. He was being milqutoast but what Billy Grahm said is downright scary.

Let me ask you this? should we question whether someone is a Christian? Is that fair??? From that statement would you question his salvation..or again maybe just his age and health.

We cannot judge the heart, but scripture does command us to judge actions and doctrine, because these things will reflect what is in the heart. I am usually slow to say that a person is or is not saved unless the persons actions or doctrine clearly are contrary to or in opposition to the one true God and the essentials of the gospel. However, when someone comes out with something as outrageous as this, I believe that it is appropriate for Christians to sound the warning regarding his teachings at very least, and do what we can to make other Christians aware of these teachings so that they do not recommend his works to unsaved persons.

There are examples in scripture where Paul did judge a person who was going outside of orthodox Christianity and tells us what to do:

1 Tim 1:18-20
18 This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
NKJV

Eph 5:8-14
8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9(for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. 13 But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light.
NKJV

classyT,
Believe that Billy G. could say that.
There are many people who believe that Jesus is the judge of who goes where after death of the body.
I also believe the Jesus Christ, God The Son, is the Judge and He has said so.
So I am not going to try to out guess Him.
Jesus has infinite and perfect wisdom and understanding and love, and mercy.
No human being has anything even near to perfection in any of those attributes.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

At this time I would treat her as a sister who has strayed from the truth and needs to be treated as unconverted.

Jas 5:19-20

19 My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
NIV

There is also a much harsher side to this and one which can cause us great distress when trying to figure out what applies to the one who has wandered:

Jude 22-25

22 Be merciful to those who doubt; 23 snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear-hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

24 To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
NIV

revdrgade,
You said, "At this time I would treat her as a sister who has strayed from the truth and needs to be treated as unconverted."
I think that that is a good way to look at it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

classyT,
Believe that Billy G. could say that.
There are many people who believe that Jesus is the judge of who goes where after death of the body.
I also believe the Jesus Christ, God The Son, is the Judge and He has said so.
So I am not going to try to out guess Him.
Jesus has infinite and perfect wisdom and understanding and love, and mercy.
No human being has anything even near to perfection in any of those attributes.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

The Lord Jesus knows every heart and I understand that.. but to suggest that there is salvation elsewhere? No way Fred. The Lord places His word above his name. Do you get that.. . I think that is HUGE. ( word above name) He isn't going to tell us one thing and then judge another way. There is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved. There just is no other way. To me it seemed Billy was saying... it didn't matter as long as they adhere to moral ways and practices. Do you disagree with that?

Are you saying that non Christians (even if they believe in God) will not go to heaven?

Is it really Gods way or mans?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altenweg

Are you saying that non Christians (even if they believe in God) will not go to heaven?

Is it really Gods way or mans?

God's way:

John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
NKJV

classyT,
I do believe that God can and MAY take some people to heaven who are not Christians.
The reason I say that is because God is the final judge and He IS of infinite wisdom, understanding, love, and mercy.
I refuse to out guess Him, that is to think that I know His way better or not that everything is possible with God.
You see I do believe that everything IS possible with God and it is His choice on what He should and will do.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

classyT,
I do believe that God can and MAY take some people to heaven who are not Christians.

Fred,

A couple of questions:

1) What is your interpretation of this verse:

John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
NKJV

2) Do you believe that something other than the blood shed on the cross can save?

Fred, One thing is impossible for God to do, and that is to allow sin into heaven. If one has not put their life in Jesus hands and been made clean by Him, then that person WILL NOT be allowed into heaven, regardless of what you may believe. It simply does not line up with what the Bible states about God's character to allow someone who does not OBEY Him into His eternal Glory.

TJ, not sure why you disagreed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by savedsinner7

TJ, not sure why you disagreed.

Sorry, my mouse slipped as I was hitting the send, and I did not realize until after I hit send that it changed it it red. My comments were accurate though.

My apologies!

Quote:

Originally Posted by savedsinner7

Fred, One thing is impossible for God to do, and that is to allow sin into heaven. If one has not put their life in Jesus hands and been made clean by Him, then that person WILL NOT be allowed into heaven, regardless of what you may believe. It simply does not line up with what the Bible states about God's character to allow someone who does not OBEY Him into His eternal Glory.

But does being a Christian automatically guarantee your entry into heaven?

As a Christian, you are supposed to know the bible, God's will, all of it. So, if you sin should you be exempt just because you're Christian? I would think that God would expect more of you becaue you do know his laws, his word. I haven't met anyone who doesn't sin, including Christians.

Does obeying God really mean being a Christian? What about non Christians that still obey God?

Christianity is a man made institution, not a God made one.

OK.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altenweg

But does being a Christian automatically guarantee your entry into heaven?

Because it is only the blood shed on the cross that can pay the price for sin.

Quote:

I haven't met anyone who doesn't sin, including Christians.

Scripture agrees - Romans 3:23

Quote:

Does obeying God really mean being a Christian? What about non Christians that still obey God?

Their sin has not been paid because they have rejected their Messiah.

Quote:

Christianity is a man made institution, not a God made one.

Please explain how you conclude this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altenweg

But does being a Christian automatically gaurantee your entry into heaven?

As a Christian, you are supposed to know the bible, God's will, all of it. So, if you sin should you be exempt just because you're Christian? I would think that God would expect more of you becaue you do know his laws, his word. I haven't met anyone who doesn't sin, including Christians.

Does obeying God really mean being a Christian? What about non Christians that still obey God?

Christianity is a man made institution, not a God made one.

Right, we all sin. But the difference is that those who place their lives in Jesus hands believe that he forgives sin when confessed and repented of (to turn completely from the sin). We walk in what God says through His word. Jesus said that it is not enough to hear the word but that we must obey as well (Hebrews 12). He also said that there will be many who call Him Lord, but He will cast them to hell because "I knew you not" meaning that they did not obey and do what He says to do. It's not about being able to follow His laws, it's about listening to and following the leading of His Holy Spirit and allowing God's grace to work through me. There is no way possible that I can obey Him without the grace of God working in me through His Holy Spirit to obey.

Tj2,
I believe that what that verse says is that Jesus IS the way, truth and life and that no one goes to the Father but by Him
It does not say that Jesus can not take anyone He wants to ti the Father..
Jesus blood saves yes, and I believe it can save any one Jesus wants to be saved.
He IS the judge, not you or I or any other human being.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj2,
I believe that what that verse says is that Jesus IS the way, truth and life and that no one goes to the Father but by Him
It does not say that Jesus can not take anyone He wants to ti the Father..
Jesus blood saves yes, and I believe it can save any one Jesus wants to be saved.

God does not contradict His word:

John 3:18-19
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
NKJV

How do you interpret that?

Tj3,
That is for those who have heard of and about Jesus but not believed.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
That is for those who have heard of and about Jesus but not believed.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Where does it say that, Fred?

Tj3,
That is the point.
In context that passage id talking about people who know of Jesus but do not believe He is who He is.
That verse does not say "every single person regardless of whether they have known about Jesus or not and do not believe on or in him" will be condemned.
I have told you what I believe and I assure you that YOU will not change what I believe about that.
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
That is the point.
In context that passage id talking about people who know of Jesus but do not believe He is who He is.

Actually, it does not say that. It only says that those who do not believe in Jesus will not be saved. Further, we cannot base doctrine on what is not said, but rather on what scripture does say. As to the need to be saved by Jesus, scripture is very clear and very specific:

Acts 4:12
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
NKJV

Quote:

I have told you what I believe and I assure you that YOU will not change what I believe about that.
Fred

I am not out to change your mind. I am looking at what scripture has to say.

You are always welcome to believe as you wish.

Tom

Tj3,
You have it your way and I'll have it mine, Thank you.
Fred.