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We all know that Christ chose the Twelve. We also know that after Judas's betrayal and death the remaining eleven Apostles chose Matthias to replace him and to retain the original number of twelve Apostles. So my question is, How many Apostles were there? Was Matthias really an Apostle? Was Paul an Apostle?
Apostle means "sent out".Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
There were 12 original Apostles. One of thoese was Judas Iscariot.
Matthias was chosen by God to replace Judas. We know that Matthias selection was approved by God because the Apostles drew lots and the lot fell on Matthias. Since we don't believe in chance but that God decides everything, we know that Matthias selection was approved by God.
In a sense, Matthias was the first Bishop appointed by the Church. He filled an empty "bishoprick". All the Bishops are Apostles selected by Apostles in the line of the Apostles. They have the same task. To oversee the Church. But there is only one set of original Apostles.
St. Paul was selected by Jesus, Apostle to the Gentiles. He is not one of the Original 12 Apostles. Nor was he selected to replace "Judas". Matthias was selected to fill that slot. But St. Paul was sent out in addition to the 12 with a mandate which had an emphasis on Gentile converts.
That is the extent of the Apostles sent out directly by God.
The original 12, Matthias and St. Paul.
Bishops are Apostles of the Church. However, we are all sent out. We are all apostles sent out to carry the good news of Jesus Christ to the world.
Sincerely,
De Maria
I believe that the apostles were not filled with the holy spirit(pre-pentecost) when they took it upon themselves to select a replacement for Judas. It isn't unusual for believers to move ahead and "help God out" as Abraham did by having sex with his slave woman so that he would have an heir and fulfill God's purpose with his timing instead of Gods. You will notice that Matthias is mentioned this one time and then is never heard from again. You mentioned that God chose Matthias and Jesus chose Paul. What's the difference? One of the qualifications to being an apostle was being with Jesus. Paul claims he was chosen by God-not men- as Matthias was and that he spent 3 years with Jesus after his conversion on the road to Damascus. Matthias never did anything at all that we know of and to scholars knowledge never claimed to chosen for the apostles position by anyone other then the other men. Besides, in the book of revelation 21:14 it says the wall of the city had twelve foundations and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Judas' name won't be there and I have to really lean toward Paul's name being much more likely to be there than Matthias.
At Acts 1.24, we are told that the eleven remaining Apostles prayed to God saying, "Show us which one of these two you have chosen". This seems to indicate pretty clearly that Matthias was chosen by God. While it is certainly true that Paul was an apostle, he nowhere claims to have been Judas's replacement. Acts 1, on the other hand, clearly tells us that Matthias was Judas's replacement. As for never doing anything that we know of: Isn't the same true of many of the Twelve?Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
If the Apostles were not filled with the Holy Spirit "pre-Pentecost", why at John 20.22 do we read, "When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit.'"?
What is your take on these?
When the apostles put two names in a hat (so to speak)and intend to pick out one, does it matter if they pray to God or devil? One name is going to come out no matter what. Instead of letting God choose Paul, headstrong and impetuos Peter decided he needed to "help God out" and talked the others into this "vote" Just like in America, you are sadly mistaken if you think a 3rd party has a chance of getting elected president. The president is going to be a republican or a democrat. Period.
As for John 20:22 you're right. They most likely had the Holy Spirit at that time. I had forgotten that passage. Thank you for pointing it out. I still believe that even with the Holy Spirit in them they may have taken things into their own hands thinking they were doing Gods will. All through history there have been true believers who thought they were doing Gods will but weren't. Another example of Peter misunderstanding is his early refusal to hang out with or share the gospel with Gentiles... Paul had to correct Peter.
Right. Scripture is clear that there ever were only 12 Apostles, and just having the Holy Spirit (as all belivers do) does not guarantee that we are always right. Though the Holy Spirit guides us, we don't always listen clearly.Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
EXACTLY!! But tj3 what do you do with someone like Cozyk, who is looking for Christianity and she sees some SERIOUS flaws! It appears that MOST of us do disagree on things. WE both have serious issues with works added to salvation. Do you believe that you can be a Christian and add something to the finished work of Christ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
If a person has the spirit of God living in them, they are saved now and forever. If they don't have the spirit of God living in them, they are currently lost(which doesn't mean to say they won't someday have the living God inside them.)
It is not up to me or anyone else to decide if a person has the spirit of God in them. Their relationship with God is just that - their relationship with God.
"Sitting in a church will no more make you a Christian than sitting in a henhouse will make you a chicken."
Usually when people say that they see seriously flaws in Christianity, they mean that they see serious flaws in Christians (inconsistency, sin, disagreements, etc.). I say that I agree. That is because non of us have yet reached perfection, and we won't while we are in these bodies.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Scondly, there are disagreements between people who profess to be Christians sometimes because people who profess to be have not actually received Jesus as Saviour. Jesus said as much in Matthew 7. There cannot be haqrmony of Spirit with those who do not have the indwelling of the Spirit.
So Cozyk and others are right in that there are indeed inconsistencies and sin and other serious flaws in church organizations and with those who profess to be Christians. But that does not take away from the inerrancy of God's word and from the truth of who He is and what He has done and will do.
Scripture speaks about "love of truth". I believe that if a person has "love of truth", whether they are presently saved or not, God will lead them towards His truth. There is nothing wrong with questioning - indeed if a person is questioning with a open mind and is serious regarding their questions, that is great.
Can there be disagreements amongst Christians and yet those on both sides be saved? Yes, it really depends upon the issue. If a person denies that our salvation comes through the death of Jesus on the cross, then no, they cannot be saved. Harmony on the essentials of the Christian faith is critical.
That is a loaded question! ;)Quote:
WE both have serious issues with works added to salvation. Do you believe that you can be a Christian and add something to the finished work of Christ?
We cannot add anything to the finsihed work of Christ.
Is it possible that some maay be misled into believing that works are necessary and yet be saved? Yes, I believe that is possible. But I also believe that love of truth means that they will be willing to submit to sound Biblical teaching and will submit their own opinions to what God's word has to say, and will subsequently be drawn by God's work to accept the truth that it is ONLY by His sacrifice on the cross that we are saved.
I must agree with De Maria and Akoue because I read the bible to says what they have posted on this topic.
In the end there were 12 original apostles chosen by God (not Judas) and plus one (Paul) whom God the son chose after he had ascended.
The bible is clear on that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Do you think Matthias, chosen by men, will be one of the twelve in the foundation wall of the new jerusalem in Revelation? Or Paul, chosen directly by Jesus. It can't be both.Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
(not that this really matters because we can't prove one way or the other.)
What about all those decisions made by men in the OT when the gift of the Holy Spirit was not yet given?Do you believe that only the supernatural things that happened were God's choise?And what about the sun that comes out every day, whose choise is that?I don't hear God's voice every day ordering the sun to come out, does this make it not God's will?Before our meals do we not pray to God and thank Him and doesn't this make our food clean?I do not see anything supernatural happening every time I thank God for my food, still I believe by faith that my food is clean and blessed.
No matter how glorious Paul's ministry was, he was not one of the twelve.Does this make him any less than the twelve?Do you think he would argue with Matthias about that?Do you think those two fight over a chair?
What about the prophets of the OT?Should Isaiah feel dissapointed because Jesus said that there is no greater prophet than John the baptist even though the Bible nowhere mentions that John did supernatural things like Elijah,Moses or others.There is not even a prophecy like the one made by other prophets of the OT that John did, still he is the greater.
Do not judge like men.Matthias is as much God's choice as Paul is too, as you and me are today also!
And if we think that Paul is something more than he is then we should think the following..
James 2:1My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
2For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
3And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
4Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
5Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
6But ye have despised the poor.
Let us be more careful !
adam7gur,
Of course I agree with you. God is in control and everything is by his divine direction. I was simply pointing out that Paul was chosen directly by Jesus, Matthias was not.
This is one of the things that doesn't really matter what one believes on this question one way or the other.
John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy GhostQuote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
The following is from theholyspirit.com
In the Old Testament the Hebrew word (ruwach, pronounced roo'-akh) was used when talking about the Spirit. This word literally means WIND, even the wind associated with a BREATHE! In the New Testament the Greek word (pneuma, pronounced pnyoo'-mah) was used which means the BREATHE or a BREEZE! We can literally think of the Holy Spirit as the "Breathe of God!"
The following are my thoughts.
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God(Breathe of God) moved upon the face of the waters.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life(God); and man became a living soul.
The Breathe of life,the Breathe of God,the Spirit,the Ruwach is what gives life to creation and to man.
Adam and Eve were alive not just biological but mostly by the chance to be in the likeness of God and that is LIFE!
But by sin death came and they and therfeore we, lost that privillege.
Christ overcame death and gave us this gift back, that's why after His resurrection and before Him leaving this world He breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit.
What He did at that moment is what He did when He created Adam in Genesis.
He gave us the right to be in His likeness and THAT IS LIFE ,the Breathe of Life, the Breathe of God, the Ruwach!Just like what was given to man in Genesis through the Breath of God,the Spirit of God,exactly the same was given to us again because we lost it!
This is something different from Pentecost and the anointing of the Holy Spirit that comes with the gifts of the Holy Spirit like speaking in tongues!
But I say that Matthias was directly chosen by Jesus through His desciples just as the Bible is given to us directly by God through His people.Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
And I believe that this matters because we could say that something is not God's choise/will ,when it really is.
We have to see as He sees, and judge as He judges!
Thank you for your time Jeff!
Adam7gur,
By directly, I meant not through any other means.
By not mattering what we believe on this I meant that we have no definite proof one way or the other. God definitely made a choice and expressed his will. Just I see it one way and you see another. Both perspectives are valid with arguments from either side in favor of each position... This isn't like contending about whether one needs to be born again or not, which we know is quite clear.
Interesting discussion on this.
I like it.
Agree mostly with Adam so far.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Just because the disciples did it does not in and of itself mean that Jesus endorsed it. Indeed, all of the other Apostles were directly and personally chosen by Jesus. We see nothing which shows God's endorsement of Matthias as an Apostle. That is not to say that he was not a good Christian leader, but all indiactions are that he was man's choice, not God's choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by adam7gur
I do believe that Jesus did indeed endorse the selection of Matthias for He told them that He was with them even to the ends of the earth.
Jesus was closer to them than anyone that came a long later.
Fred
So you say that all those chosen directly by Jesus apostles sinned because they did not wait for so many years to substitude Judas?Do you mean it was a mistake, a false decision?If so , then why don't we see Jesus correcting them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
He was God's choice through God's desciples,as much the miracles performed by God's desciples are not theirs but God's miracles.
Acts 1:20 Peter quotes a verse taken out of context, "may another take his place of leadership" David is talking about the men that oppose him and falsely accuse him and what he would like to see happen to them. In verse 20 David ends by saying, "may this be the Lord's payment to my accusers, (plural)to those that speak evil of me."
In Acts 1:23 the Bible clearly says, "So they (the apostles) proposed two men... " and then asked God to show them which of the two that they the apostles had selected was to be the one by casting lots. Why did they cast lots if this was directly from God?
In Acts chapter 13:2-3, it is shown how God selects.
Paul, through inspiration of God, opens almost everyone of his letters by stating that he is an apostle called by God. Paul spent 3 years in Arabia during which time he says he received direct revelation from Jesus. Maybe one on one with Jesus counts more than Matthias being nearby but still an outsider from the twelve and certainly an outsider to the inner three, Peter, James, and John.
So you don't believe that Jesus meant that He would be with us until the ends of the earth?Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
What about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the promises that God made to believers about guiding us?
Do you believe that the Apostles were infallible?
I think that often men of God make mistakes by choosing to try to help out God when they ought to wait upon Him and His timing.Quote:
Originally Posted by adam7gur
We cannot establish doctrine based upon silence of scripture. We don't know if He did or Did not. What we do know is that Jesus chose another Apostle and that we are told in God's word that there are only 12. So, we have 12 Apostles chosen directly and personally by God, and one who was not. And a total of 12. The math seems easy to me. ;)Quote:
If so , then why don't we see Jesus correcting them?
adam7gur,
Right on, brother.
Fred
Joshua 14:2 By lot was their inheritance, as the LORD commanded by the hand of Moses, for the nine tribes, and for the half tribe.
Numbers 36:2 And they said, The LORD commanded my lord to give the land for an inheritance by lot to the children of Israel: and my lord was commanded by the LORD to give the inheritance of Zelophehad our brother unto his daughters.
Leviticus 16: 7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
9And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD's lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
A lot is God's will. He instructed His people to do so , that's why Peter and the rest of the apostles drew lots to see who God wants to replace Judas.
It was not a mistake , it was not men's choise.
Therefore we see not Jesus correcting them for replacing so Judas with Matthias.
Do not judge like men!
Just because something was done once or even 2 or three times for specific instances does not mean that every time that you do it, that it is of the Lord. For example:Quote:
Originally Posted by adam7gur
Isa 20:2-5
2 at the same time the LORD spoke by Isaiah the son of Amoz, saying, "Go, and remove the sackcloth from your body, and take your sandals off your feet." And he did so, walking naked and barefoot. 3 Then the LORD said, "Just as My servant Isaiah has walked naked and barefoot three years for a sign and a wonder against Egypt and Ethiopia, 4 so shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians as prisoners and the Ethiopians as captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
NKJV
Would you think that this is the right thing for every Christian to do?
Now if you can find me where in scripture God instructed the Apostles to choose lots, I'll believe you.
adam7gur,
Well done.
It demonstrates that there are times when casting lots are for God to make the choice.
And of course in the case of God's CHOSEN apostles casting lots to select a replacement for Judas it makes sense that God would help make the choice.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Your example is a prophecy for a sign and not the law. I offered scriptures from the law! The law is not something that happenes once or twice , it is the law and it is the way things should be done.The apostles did not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit at that time and they did what the law tought them to do.The law from the beginning to the end of it is Jesus Christ,so doing something by law is doing it by Jesus Christ!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Matthias was chosen directly by the law, so he was chosen directly by Jesus Christ!
Exactly!Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
I guess I must repeat myself. The Bible clearly says that THEY(the apostles) chose 2 men. Then cast lots to see which of the two would be selected. Adam7gur mentioned selecting of two goats one for the offering, one for the scapegoat. First THE PEOPLE selected the two goats, then asked the lot to choose between the two. Goats aren't people. This was a totally different scenario with both selected goats put before the Lord to serve a different purpose.
If I prayed to the Lord and said, "Lord, I'm gonna get drunk. I wrote the seven days of the week on seven pieces of paper and put those papers in a jar. I'm going to pick out one piece of paper. Please let me know which day of the week of the seven that you want me to get drunk."
If I'm able to pull a day of the week out of the jar, does that mean that day is God's will? (Don't get any ideas here you sinners... hehehe)
Praying to God beforehand, being an apostle, has nothing to do with it. The Bible says the APOSTLES chose the two men to put before the Lord.
Let me see!
You put in the same sack, a man willing to sin and even putting the blame on God for it, with the directly by God chosen apostles! Can you see how misleading this is?
I wish Peter could say something about this and I would very much like to see if you had the courage to say this in his face just as you say this in his absence and in the absence of the rest apostles.But in their defence there is today as in their time, the Holy Spirit!
Yes the people selected the goats according to God's will.Those goats should be perfect goats,healthy in every way,even not two coloured.Yes , people chose but not any kind of goat.So, yes the apostles did choose ,but those they chose were not just two guys,but those two were with Jesus for the whole time while He was here on earth.And there were no others among the rest. Paul at that moment, was Christ's enemy.He persecuted the Church,even agreed on Stephen's murder.
The selection of those two was under the instruction of the law and that makes the whole thing legal.
Those goats Jeff, were selected as a sin offering.Those goats were Christ preincarnated ,if you see what I mean and that makes them definetely not ,just two goats.Yes goats aren't people but those goats were sacrificed for people's sin and that should make us see the importance of that ritual!
All I'm saying is that the Bible says the apostles chose the two names and one name was going to come out no matter what. Peter wasn't flawless, Paul had to correct him.
I'm not saying I'm right and anyone that disagrees is wrong. I see two valid possibilities here and I choose to believe Paul was God's choice.
This is what amazes me.How can you see two possibilities when the one you claim is totally unsriptural, therefore only human ,while the other one is under God's law?Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
All you do to support your claim is guessing while scripture is clear that your claim is without proof!
Let me ask you this and I HONESTLY just want to help you if you just let me!
I can see how Paul's ministry could be more glorious than the ministry of Matthias.Now , let's examine the coin from the flip side...
Whose sins were heavier?
I don't see Matthias killing anyone , while Paul, supported the murder of Stephen and also persecuted many members of the Church,and by pesecuting I don't think that Scripture means ,just throwing them out of their homes.Surely it was more and worse than that!
Everything matters!
And yours have nothing to do with a general application of using casting of lots as a means of knowing God's will. They are very specific. Otherwise, if lots were a way of knowing God's will perfectly, then we could all just make infallible decisions by casting lots on every decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by adam7gur
Your points are very well taken. Not only is the usage of lots questionable, but by limiting the number of choices, we make it impossible for "God" to choose any option that we did not already agree with. It is kind of like an election in a communist country. You may have two choices, but they are both chosen by the communist party.Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
We therefore have told God what His options are before the choice is made. And like you said, this is not the same as choosing between two goats.
Adam7gur,
Since the shed blood of Christ covers all our sins, does it matter who sinned more? For that matter, Moses was a murderer and David (a man after God's own heart)was an adulterer and a murderer.
First, casting of lots has only be used for very specific and well defined purposes in scripture. To expand it beyond what God say is unscriptural (remember that it says not to go beyond what is written?). Also keep in mind that those who are in Christ are not under the law, so I am not sure what the law has to do with this in any case.Quote:
Originally Posted by adam7gur
You claim is without proof.Quote:
All you do to support your claim is guessing while scripture is clear that your claim is without proof!
- What we do know is that scripture is specific that there are 12 Apostles.
- We know that 12 were directly and personally chosen by Christ - the only exception being Mattias.
- We have nothing in scripture to say that Matthias was chosen by God.
- We do have scripture saying that Paul was chosen by God.
I don't know know how you cram a 13th Apostle into that equation.
I would suggest that you are no in a position to judge that. You are making your judgment based upon what we do know about Paul, and what we don't know about Mathhias. Further, as Homsesell quite rightly showed, whose sins are heavier does not matter for those that are in Christ.Quote:
Let me ask you this and I HONESTLY just want to help you if you just let me!
I can see how Paul's ministry could be more glorious than the ministry of Matthias.Now , let's examine the coin from the flip side...
Whose sins were heavier?
I don't see Matthias killing anyone , while Paul, supported the murder of Stephen and also persecuted many members of the Church,and by pesecuting I don't think that Scripture means ,just throwing them out of their homes.Surely it was more and worse than that!
Everything matters!
Yes the apostles chose two men to put before the Lord and cast lots to have the Lord select WHICH ONE would be an apostle and the other NOT one.
Your drunk example does not work with that. There was no sure thing about it other than the Lord would make the selection from the lot cast.
Your jar of slips was riiged for you knew bfore have that the selected slip would show up.
The apostles nid NOT know which man would be selected.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
My example is straight from the law.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I am sorry but God's commandments are something more than you describe them to be.
It was God who instructed people to do so.
Exactly my brother!Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
I just wanted to show you how our judgement has nothing to do with the Lord's.
We as humans are influenced by the phenomenon, but the Lord can reach the very depths of our hearts.
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