The Tim LaHay's celebrated Left Behind series follow the essence of John Darby's theological beliefs of multiple 2nd comings of Christ. Theories in this vein require 3 to 5returns of Christ. Where in scripture does it talk about the 3rd or 4th “Second coming of Christ”? Of course there are also multiple versions of just how this will happen. We've got pre-tribers, post-tribers, anti-tribers, premillenialsits, amillenialists, millenialist, postmillennialists, and dispensationalist. If the Bible “interprets itself,” how then do we discern which theories are “self-evident”. I don't want to be left behind, or do I!

And, when will the 2nd coming of Christ be? No one knows! (Matt 24:36) However, we do know that it will be on the “last day” (John 6:25, 39; John 12:48; John 11:24). Not a multiple number of last days but the last "last day". Scriptures don't say the last day just before the last day, or the last period before the last day. Scripture says Christ's return will be on “THE LAST DAY.”

We do know the 2nd coming will be like the days of Noah, they (the bad guys) will be making marry up till the last day (Matt 24:36-38). In Noah's day it was those making marry until “the flood came and took them all away.” (Matt 24:39). So, it was bad guys who were taken up in Matthew's gospel. A real contradiction left by Darby- and LaHay wants to "take up" the good guys?


JoeT

The bad guys died. The ready guys had a way of escape.

We will get into all the Scripture on the subject shortly, I expect.

Joe,
First off you must realize and understand that the Left Behind series of books is totally fictional.
Second the bible does say that Jesus will return as you saw him go. In other words in the clouds. The rapture will take place that is a fact. No where does it say that Jesus will set foot back on earth until the battle of Armageddon. Which will be a very very short battle. Then he will sit in judgment of ALL people both living and those that were dead. Those found worthy will be with him forever. Those not found worthy will be cast into the lake of fire with the false profit and his cronies for 1000 years. So in summary, Jesus return to earth will happen only one time

Galveston1:

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

The bad guys died. The ready guys had a way of escape.

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But it was the good guys that inherited the earth, good guy are the ones that established a kingdom on earth.

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

We will get into all the Scripture on the subject shortly, I expect.

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No doubt.
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450donn:

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Originally Posted by 450donn

Joe,
First off you must realize and understand that the Left Behind series of books is totally fictional.

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I assumed everybody understood this. But, one of its selling points is that it is a fictional portrait based on the Darby theories.

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Originally Posted by 450donn

Second the bible does say that Jesus will return as you saw him go.

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I wasn’t implying that, “Jesus will return as you saw him go”.

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Originally Posted by 450donn

In other words in the clouds. The rapture will take place that is a fact.

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Originally Posted by 450donn

Nowhere does it say that Jesus will set foot back on earth until the battle of Armageddon. Which will be a very very short battle. Then he will sit in judgment of

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But it only says that Christ will return “on the last day.” Your rendition could only be scripturally correct if we hold that the battle of Armageddon and the tribulation occur on the last day.

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Originally Posted by 450donn

ALL people both living and those that were dead. Those found worthy will be with him forever. Those not found worthy will be cast into the lake of fire with the false profit and his cronies for 1000 years. So in summary, Jesus return to earth will happen only one time

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How do you get a thousand years?

JoeT

Please reread the book of Revelation.
Not sure about anybodies theories, but in the last book of the Bible it is pretty clear about the last days of the earth as we know it. With a great shout he(Jesus) will call his church home. This I believe will be the start of the last days. There will be a period between the rapture and the start of the tribulation. Again, how long, who knows, and I really don't care as I do not plan to be here. I believe that the signing of the peace treaty between Isreal and the rest of the world will be the actual starting point of the 7 years
On the last day Jesus and his army, the saints that were raptured, the angles and all of the heavenly hosts will return for the great final battle at Armageddon. At this time the earth will quake and all of the enemy will be defeated in the blink of an eye. Think of the mother of all nuclear bombs going off and killing millions at one time. That is how it appears in my mind. Then Jesus will establish his kingdom and all the people of the earth that ever lived will be judged. Also remember that to God a day is as a thousand years. So how long does this all take? Don't know, and as far as I am concerned it really does not matter as long as I am with my Lord. I am more worried about doing the Lords work while I am still here on earth.

I agree with what I believe you to be saying.

There is only ONE Last Day and at that time the dead in Christ will be raised from the grave with their new bodies and we who are still here on earth will be changed and meet the Lord in the air... with those who died in our past.

At that time the present heavens and earth will dissolve and our Lord will create a new heavens and earth which is no longer under God's consignment to futility/vanity. And all the saints before us, with us and those after us will dwell there in God... forever.

The other matters, such as the date, time, new bodies, features of the earth, the fate of the unbeliever, etc. are not clearly spoken of that we should make any doctrine one against another. They are just as much "shadows" as the OT Temple, sacrifices, laws, etc were shadows to the people of that time.

We have enough knowledge (which "puffs up") to have sure hope. We are told to look forward to the time and unfolding whenever God secretly chooses. And we are to spend our time in ministry to others and stay alert in our hope, faith and love as God has told to do.

Maranatha!

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Originally Posted by 450donn

Please reread the book of Revelation.
Not sure about anybodies theories, but in the last book of the Bible it is pretty clear about the last days of the earth as we know it. With a great shout he(Jesus) will call his church home. This I believe will be the start of the last days. There will be a period of time between the rapture and the start of the tribulation. Again, how long, who knows, and I really don't care as I do not plan to be here. I believe that the signing of the peace treaty between Isreal and the rest of the world will be the actual starting point of the 7 years
On the last day Jesus and his army, the saints that were raptured, the angles and all of the heavenly hosts will return for the great final battle at Armageddon. At this time the earth will quake and all of the enemy will be defeated in the blink of an eye. Think of the mother of all nuclear bombs going off and killing millions at one time. That is how it appears in my mind. Then Jesus will establish his kingdom and all the people of the earth that ever lived will be judged. Also remember that to God a day is as a thousand years. So how long does this all take? Don't know, and as far as I am concerned it really does not matter...

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In the Apocalypse there are only two Christ figures depicted. One of the Christ figures had already appeared in history as of the writing of the Apocalypse. This Christ figure established his Kingdom on earth. That leaves only one, just one, (or 2-1) Christ figures left to appear; the Christ that promised to appear on the last day.

There is nothing in the Apocalypse that would presuppose a linear time line?

From your response, I gather you believe the rapture will come first, then the second coming, then for the third coming, Christ will defeat satan?

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Originally Posted by 450donn

as long as I am with my Lord. I am more worried about doing the Lords work while I am still here on earth.

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Good. You might want to read John chapter 6.

John 6:48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the desert: and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven: that if any man eat of it, he may not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world…55 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by revdrgade

I agree with what I believe you to be saying.

There is only ONE Last Day and at that time the dead in Christ will be raised from the grave with their new bodies and we who are still here on earth will be changed and meet the Lord in the air ...with those who died in our past.

At that time the present heavens and earth will dissolve and our Lord will create a new heavens and earth which is no longer under God's consignment to futility/vanity. And all the saints before us, with us and those after us will dwell there in God....forever.

The other matters, such as the date, time, new bodies, features of the earth, the fate of the unbeliever, etc. are not clearly spoken of that we should make any doctrine one against another. They are just as much "shadows" as the the OT Temple, sacrifices, laws, etc were shadows to the people of that time.

We have enough knowledge (which "puffs up") to have sure hope. We are told to look forward to the time and unfolding whenever God secretly chooses. And we are to spend our time in ministry to others and stay alert in our hope, faith and love as God has told to do.

Maranatha!

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Revdgrade:

Great response. I don’t think I could quibble too much. I might suggest that meeting Christ in the air is intended metaphorically for going forward to meet Christ as was the custom in that day.

JoeT

"Also remember that to God a day is as a thousand years."

I'm not sure how useful this is. When in Scripture is a day a period lasting, let's say, roughly 24 hours, and when in Scripture is a day a period lasting 1000 years? Because if a day is always a thousand years, whoa! Jesus was in Galilee A LOT longer than I thought. And it just seems discourteous of the Bible to use it one way in Revelation and another way throughout the rest of the NT--without ever letting us know that.

OK Joe, I now see where you are getting your theory about a "third" coming. . From your response, I gather you believe the rapture will come first, then the second coming, then for the third coming, Christ will defeat satan? The problem is that Christ does not land on earth at the rapture. That is a calling home of his church ( the believers) so therefore it is not really a "second coming" then. Then only second coming ( when Christ) sets foot on earth and actually takes control happens at the end of the 7 year tribulation at the battle of Armageddon. The problem is that Christ does not land on earth at the rapture. That is a calling home of his church ( the believers) so therefore it is not really a "second coming" then. Then only second coming ( when Christ) sets foot on earth and actually takes control happens at the end of the 7 year tribulation at the battle of Armageddon. At least that is how I understand and interpert the scriptures. But I am only a lowly layman and others of far greater knowledge who I have read feel this is how the Bible spells it out.

Donn:

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Originally Posted by 450donn

OK Joe, I now see where you are getting your theory about a "third" coming. . From your response, I gather you believe the rapture will come first, then the second coming, then for the third coming, Christ will defeat satan? The problem is that Christ does not land on earth at the rapture. That is a calling home of his church ( the believers) so therefore it is not really a "second coming" then. Then only second coming ( when Christ) sets foot on earth and actually takes control happens at the end of the 7 year tribulation at the battle of Armageddon. The problem is that Christ does not land on earth at the rapture.

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Oh yeah, I see it now. Christ does a touch-and-go landing on earth’s runway right after the end of verse 1 Thess 4:16 and just before 1 Thess 4:17.

But getting serious, it would seem to me that credible support be cited if I’m to take your comments in any way other than opinion. My faith looks to an authoritative guide to be based on tradition and scripture. You’ve offered none. Consequently, I would like to challenge you to provide support for your views, either scriptural, historical or through an apostolic tradition.

I cannot find any scriptural support that would suggest that Christ will come-and-go on his second return? Nor can the 3rd coming of Christ be located in scripture. Why because the next, and last, coming of Christ comes on THE LAST DAY. In chapter 4 of 1 Thessalonians Paul describes the rising of both the living and the dead, whereas in John 6 we see that Christ is referring to the requirements for the dead to be taken up on the LAST DAY.

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Originally Posted by 450donn

That is a calling home of his church ( the believers) so therefore it is not really a "second coming" then. Then only second coming ( when Christ) sets foot on earth and actually takes control happens at the end of the 7 year tribulation at the battle of Armageddon. At least that is how I understand and interpert the scriptures. But I am only a lowly layman and others of far greater knowledge who I have read feel this is how the Bible spells it out.

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No He isn’t calling home His church, Christ stated quite plainly, “He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. (John 6: 55) Christ is calling those who “eat” his flesh, and “drinks” his blood; in other words those who are worthy to partake of the sacrament of the Eucharist are being called.

I cannot find any scriptural support that would suggest that Christ will come and go on his second return? In chapter 4 of 1 Thessalonians Paul describes the rising of both the living and the dead, whereas in John 6 we see that Christ is referring to the requirements for the dead to be taken up on the LAST DAY.

There can be no 1,000-year reign because when the kingdom of the world becomes Christ’s, He begins His reign forever and ever. (Rev 11:15) Remember the dead in Christ are raised in 1 Thess 4 along with the living in Christ. And when does this occur, when death is destroyed (Cf. 1 Cor 15:23-26) which occurs on the LAST DAY. Now where, in the time line, would you suggest we place a 1,000-year reign?

JoeT

Joe,
I understand that "the Last Day" is the last day of this age which started with the Advent of the Messiah.
The age following this one is the Messianic age which will last about 1000 years.
Those are years of peace.
So IF all the good guys are raptured why are the bad guys who are left behind given a 1000 years of peace?
What did they do to earn or warrant that with the good guys having had to live through this world of wars, rapes, murders, and all the other nasty terrible things we humans have inflicted on each other.
Something is very wrong with that picture.
I firmly believe that there will be NO rapture as it is being taught.
There will be but ONE return of Jesus Christ to thus planet which includes the atmosphere with clouds, plains, mountains, meadows and much water.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

Joe,
I understand that "the Last Day" is the last day of this age which started with the Advent of the Messiah.
The age following this one is the Messianic age which will last about 1000 years.
Those are years of peace.
So IF all the good guys are raptured why are the bad guys who are left behind given a 1000 years of peace?

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Excellent point Fred. You snuck up on me with this one! It goes to prove my point, to rapture is to rupture Scriptures.

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Originally Posted by arcura

What did they do to earn or warrant that with the good guys having had to live through this world of wars, rapes, murders, and all the other nasty terrible things we humans have inflicted on each other.
Something is very wrong with that picture.

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Which is another well made point; Christ's coming is to save those dead or alive in Him, not punish them.

JoeT

Joe,
Thanks.
I just added my 2 cents worth to your excellent post.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Joe,
Without having my bible in front of me to quite chapter and verse I have to go on memory, so lease bare with me.
"I cannot find any scriptural support that would suggest that Christ will come and go on his second return? In chapter 4 of 1 Thessalonians Paul describes the rising of both the living and the dead, whereas in John 6 we see that Christ is referring to the requirements for the dead to be taken up on the LAST DAY. "
Here is a clear example of the "rapture" taking place. 1 Thessalonians is speaking about the church ( the believers) coming to meet him in the clouds. In John it is referring to the last (Judgment) day and so those non believers that are/were dead will rise at that time to be judged and cast into the lake of fire.
It is plane that we disagree on whether a rapture takes place or not Many bible scolars believe in the "rapture" of the church and that it will happen fairly soon as almost everyone is in agreement that we are in the last days. People like Grant Jefferies who have spent a life time studying bible prophesy are convinced of it and have written several good books on the subject. There are also many many famous preachers out there today that believe it. If your church does not believe and preach this subject, and you are comfortable with that, then great. Personally I find comfort in that knowledge Jesus will take his church away from the earth sometime in the future. That time will start a great calamity when millions of people simply disappear from the face of the earth. This will usher in a time of great trouble and will likely see the rise of the antichrist and the false profit to fill the void left by the churches disappearance. Personally like I do not believe that the church of Christ will be around for the tribulation. At least not as we know it today.
Bottom line I guess is that we will soon know one way or the other and on that glorious day it will not matter.

Don:

In return you'll have to forgive me for making this rather brief; I'm between meetings and only have a moment.

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Originally Posted by 450donn

Joe,
Without having my bible in front of me to quite chapter and verse I have to go on memory, so lease bare with me.
"I cannot find any scriptural support that would suggest that Christ will come and go on his second return? In chapter 4 of 1 Thessalonians Paul describes the rising of both the living and the dead, whereas in John 6 we see that Christ is referring to the requirements for the dead to be taken up on the LAST DAY. "
Here is a clear example of the "rapture" taking place. 1 Thessalonians is speaking about the church ( the believers) coming to meet him in the clouds. In John it is referring to the last (Judgment) day and so those non believers that are/were dead will rise at that time to be judged and cast into the lake of fire.
It is plane that we disagree on whether a rapture takes place or not Many bible scolars believe in the "rapture" of the church and that it will happen fairly soon as almost everyone is in agreement that we are in the last days. People like Grant Jefferies who have spent a life time studying bible prophesy are convinced of it and have written several good books on the subject. There are also many many famous preachers out there today that believe it. If your church does not believe and preach this subject, and you are comfortable with that, then great. Personally I find comfort in that knowledge Jesus will take his church away from the earth sometime in the future. That time will start a great calamity when millions of people simply disappear from the face of the earth. This will usher in a time of great trouble and will likely see the rise of the antichrist and the false profit to fill the void left by the churches disappearance. Personally like I do not believe that the church of Christ will be around for the tribulation. At least not as we know it today.
Bottom line I guess is that we will soon know one way or the other and on that glorious day it will not matter.

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Apparently, I failed to make my point clear.1 Thess 4 calls for both the dead in Christ to rise and the living in Christ to rise. In John 6, among other things, Christ discusses what it takes for the dead in Christ to be risen (not the living). Christ specifically states in John 6:55 and John 6:35 that this will occur on the last day. Consequently, there is no room in the time line for a touch and go 2nd coming of Christ.

Many Preaches teach many things, not all of which is “right.” Putting that aside, if we hold the Scriptures to a certain standard as “the word of God” then shouldn't those things we perceive to be true based on Scripture be supported in that same Scripture. Just because it feels good doesn't make it good. Christ didn't come to make us comfortable.

JoeT

AHHHHH, I now see where you are basing your arguments.
The Rapture
We have a fundamental difference of opinions and neither of us will convince the other.
God bless you.
Don

The second coming will be when he sets his feet down on the EARTH. The rapture is NOT the second coming. He is simply picking up his bride.

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Originally Posted by classyT

The second coming will be when he sets his feet down on the EARTH. The rapture is NOT the second coming. He is simply picking up his bride.

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Ok, I’ve got to ask the same questions I asked Don. Don suggested that the 1st of the 2nd coming was a touch-and-go, so are you suggesting that your 1st of the 2nd coming is a flyby? Where does scripture allude to this?

Thus far, I haven’t seen anything but opinion.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by 450donn

AHHHHH, I now see where you are basing your arguments.
The Rapture
We have a fundamental difference of opinions and neither of us will convince the other.
God bless you.
Don

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The Catholic faith does hold the "LaHaye Rapture" in a dim light. Beyond the simple misinterpretation of Scripture, the problem is that it introduces a multitude of errors. But, this isn’t simply Catholic opinion; many Protestants hold a similar view.

Obviously a Catholic can be “taken up” at the 2nd coming. But, Scripture only allows for one 2nd coming. It’s my understanding that most Catholics would find it odd to reason for a rapture to avoid tribulations. Because as Christ tells us in Matthew 16: 24 If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For he that will save his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for my sake, shall find it.

JoeT

Just an aside, really...

Augustine has this remarkable thing to say about this in The City of God. Writing at a time when the great persecutions were not long past he urges his readers to admire the faith of those who will live to see the last times, to endure in faith the terrible suffering that is to come. He even suggests that their faith compares favorably to that of the martyrs. Augustine certainly took end times prophecy seriously, going so far as to lament the great trials that will be suffered by even the most faithful.

So one can take prophecy seriously here without embracing a very recent fad, namely belief in the rapture. And I am genuinely struck by how very recent all this talk about rapture is.

Akoue:

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Just an aside, really...

Augustine has this remarkable thing to say about this in The City of God. Writing at a time when the great persecutions were not long past he urges his readers to admire the faith of those who will live to see the last times, to endure in faith the terrible suffering that is to come. He even suggests that their faith compares favorably to that of the martyrs. Augustine certainly took end times prophecy seriously, going so far as to lament the great trials that will be suffered by even the most faithful.

So one can take prophecy seriously here without embracing a very recent fad, namely belief in the rapture. And I am genuinely struck by how very recent all this talk about rapture is.

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I understand that both Clement (?-215) and Origen (185-232) had similar views. Either way, some of Augustine’s writing seems to advance that “tribulation” may be a personal experience; not a single event experienced universally.

In the day of tribulation I have sought out God Psalm 76:2. Who are you that doest this thing? In the day of your tribulation take heed what you seek out. If a jail be the cause of tribulation, you seek to get forth from jail: if fever be the cause of tribulation, you seek health: if hunger be the cause of tribulation, you seek fulness: if losses be the cause of tribulation, you seek gain: if expatriation be the cause of tribulation, you seek the home of your flesh. And why should I name all things, or when could I name all things? Do you wish to be one leaping over? In the day of your tribulation seek out God: not through God some other thing, but out of tribulation God, that to this end God may take away tribulation, that you may without anxiety cleave unto God. In the day of my tribulation, I have sought out God: not any other thing, but God I have sought out. And how have you sought out? With my hands in the night before Him.... St. Augustine, Exposition on Psalm 77

And

If I walk in the midst of tribulation, You shall revive me [Psalm 137:7]. True it is: whatsoever tribulation you are in, confess, call on Him; He frees you, He revives you....Love the other life, and you shall see that this life is tribulation… St. Augustine, Exposition on Psalm 138

I’m not necessarily advancing a personal versus a universal tribulation; however it seems to me that Augustine left the door open for the idea.

JoeT

Joe,

Origen is tricky on these issues. He sometimes seems to have held the view that there are multiple falls and multiple returns to God (though some scholars, e.g. Crouzel, argue that he didn't in fact hold this view). A further complication is the fact that he argues for apokatastasis, or the view that all creation, including the devil, will ultimately be saved. This was anathematized by the Fourth Ecumenical Council in 553. (It's so hard with Origen because his principle work on this, On Principles [Peri Archon], has not fared particularly well over the years: We have all of it in a really bad Latin translation, and the Greek of some, but not all, of the really crucial bits.)

Augustine is very suspicious of the idea that we can know, or really even predict, much about the "end times". He discusses it at some length in bk.20 of the City of God, but he is tentative: He often says that we should be really careful about arrogating to ourselves a knowledge of things that Christ himself claimed not to have had ("only the Father knows").

That said, he does think that the Church is in for some rough times. His focus is on the Church--it is the Church that will suffer. And, as he makes clear, particularly in his anti-Donatist works, the Church is the communion of the faithful under the authority of the bishops, the Mystical Body with Christ as its Head. In any event, in the passage you cite, Augustine isn't talking about THE tribulation; he's just talking about plain old tribulation, the stuff each of us has to contend with.

In ch. 7 of bk. 20, Augustine does reject the 1,000 years business, stating that he also "entertained this notion at one time" but has since thought better of it. He refers to those who do hold this view a "materialists" and "millenarians". He then proceeds to explain what he thinks is really going on in Rev.20.

It's worth noting that he also says that God has been judging all along, since Adam and Eve. In other words, he takes a fairly deflationary attitude toward some of this apocalypticism.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Joe,

Origen is tricky on these issues. He sometimes seems to have held the view that there are multiple falls and multiple returns to God (though some scholars, e.g., Crouzel, argue that he didn't in fact hold this view). A futher complication is the fact that he argues for apokatastasis, or the view that all creation, including the devil, will ultimately be saved. This was anathematized by the Fourth Ecumenical Council in 553. (It's so hard with Origen because his principle work on this, On Principles [Peri Archon], has not fared particularly well over the years: We have all of it in a really bad Latin translation, and the Greek of some, but not all, of the really crucial bits.)

Augustine is very suspicious of the idea that we can know, or really even predict, much about the "end times". He discusses it at some length in bk.20 of the City of God, but he is tentative: He often says that we should be really careful about arrogating to ourselves a knowledge of things that Christ himself claimed not to have had ("only the Father knows").

That said, he does think that the Church is in for some rough times. His focus is on the Church--it is the Church that will suffer. And, as he makes clear, particularly in his anti-Donatist works, the Church is the communion of the faithful under the authority of the bishops, the Mystical Body with Christ as its Head. In any event, in the passage you cite, Augustine isn't talking about THE tribulation; he's just talking about plain old tribulation, the stuff each of us has to contend with.

In ch. 7 of bk. 20, Augustine does reject the 1,000 years business, stating that he also "entertained this notion at one time" but has since thought better of it. He refers to those who do hold this view a "materialists" and "millenarians". He then proceeds to explain what he thinks is really going on in Rev.20.

It's worth noting that he also says that God has been judging all along, since Adam and Eve. In other words, he takes a fairly deflationary attitude toward some of this apocalypticism.

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Thanks, very informative. Now we know who to rely on for interpretations of the Church Fathers. Help by explaining how you made the distinction between The Trib and the everyday trib in the Augustine citations above;your views would be insightful.

JoeT

In the commentary on Psalms, Augustine is talking about what I'll call mundane adversities, the sorts of struggles I or you or anyone faces in the course of our lives. "This life is tribulation" means, right, life is hard, it's a struggle. Living hurts.

Contrast this with THE tribulation, the end-time event, global suck-fest, grand poo-bah of suffering. The former is universal--we all experience it--but also personal and, sometimes, private. The latter is not mundane, it's not run-of-the-mill "life sucks" suffering. Now this, THE tribulation, will be suffered--Augustine says--by the Church Universal. It will be dismembered by heresy (people breaking off from it), it will be persecuted, it will suffer. People will say that it's false, that it has betrayed the teachings of Christ, and they will present themselves as the true followers of Christ. But it will, of course, prevail (yea, happy ending!).

Does this help? I'm happy to try again if you'd like me to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akoue

In the commentary on Psalms, Augustine is talking about what I'll call mundane adversities, the sorts of struggles I or you or anyone faces in the course of our lives. "This life is tribulation" means, right, life is hard, it's a struggle. Living hurts.

Contrast this with THE tribulation, the end-time event, global suck-fest, grand poo-bah of suffering. The former is universal--we all experience it--but also personal and, sometimes, private. The latter is not mundane, it's not run-of-the-mill "life sucks" suffering. Now this, THE tribulation, will be suffered--Augustine says--by the Church Universal. It will be dismembered by heresy (people breaking off from it), it will be persecuted, it will suffer. People will say that it's false, that it has betrayed the teachings of Christ, and they will present themselves as the true followers of Christ. But it will, of course, prevail (yea, happy ending!).

Does this help? I'm happy to try again if you'd like me to.

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This works, very cleverly said!

JoeT

Those preachers who tell the world that the last day is soon are NOT paying attention to what Scripture says.
Jesus tells us clearly that He will return when the world least expects it.
More people today expect it than ever before manly because of the rapture teaching and preaching.
I don't expect ANY return of Christ for at least 100 years, probably more.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Just a note to add. The scripture state the saints will rule and reign with Christ. Who are they going to rule and reign over if all others are cast immediately into the lake of fire? Doesn't this envelop the 1000 year reign? What are your thoughts

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Originally Posted by margar

just a note to add. the scripture state the saints will rule and reign with Christ. who are they going to rule and reign over if all others are cast immediately into the lake of fire? doesn't this envelop the 1000 year reign? what are your thoughts

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There will be many that will be saved during the tribulation period. Not everyone is sent to hell.

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Originally Posted by margar

just a note to add. the scripture state the saints will rule and reign with Christ. who are they going to rule and reign over if all others are cast immediately into the lake of fire? doesn't this envelop the 1000 year reign? what are your thoughts

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Simple and accurate!

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Originally Posted by arcura

Those preachers who tell the world that the last day is soon are NOT paying attention to what Scripture says.
Jesus tells us clearly that He will return when the world least expects it.
More people today expect it than ever before manly because of the rapture teaching and preaching.
I don't expect ANY return of Christ for at least 100 years, probably more.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Fred,

The world laughs at the thought of a rapture or the return of Christ. I don't know why you think the world expects it. They may have HEARD it but they are NOT expecting it. YOU are a Chrstian and you aren't expecting it. The Lord is coming back as a thief in the night but that isn't for the believers... that is for the world. Check out the world... in what way are they behaving would make you think for a second that they are expecting ANYTHING?

Fred
As you correctly wrote ,Jesus tells us clearly that He will return when the world least expects it.
It is the world that is not expecting Him.
All those who are His , are not of the world!
John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Please don't take this message like it is anything more than simply testing and studying the Scriptures.
As long as you are willing to discuss and get somewhere with this I will be here with you, but if this is somehow making you feel uncomfortable, I will not scandalize you.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Ok, I’ve got to ask the same questions I asked Don. Don suggested that the 1st of the 2nd coming was a touch-and-go, so are you suggesting that your 1st of the 2nd coming is a flyby? Where does scripture allude to this?

Thus far, I haven’t seen anything but opinion.

JoeT

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You are making quite a thing of this aren't you? It is fairly simple stuff if you were to get your head out of a one church mentality and listen to other faiths for a bit to see how the scriptures are interperte their. No one church or faith is 100% correct in how they understand the scriptures. I sit under the teachings of one denomination, but I am not exclusive to that denominations teachings. I will listen to any preacher that teaches the word of God and not some far out theology from man. Sitting under one theology for too long can brain wash a person into believing that that is the only way and that all others are false.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Ok, I’ve got to ask the same questions I asked Don. Don suggested that the 1st of the 2nd coming was a touch-and-go, so are you suggesting that your 1st of the 2nd coming is a flyby? Where does scripture allude to this?

Thus far, I haven’t seen anything but opinion.

JoeT

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I'll get the scriptures for you.. right now I am not at home.

margar,
The fact is the left behind are will be the living. It is the dead in Christ that will rise.
That is what I believe,
Fred

Don:

I'm glad you didn't drop off.

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Originally Posted by 450donn

You are making quite a thing of this aren't you? It is fairly simple stuff if you were to get your head out of a one church mentality and listen to other faiths for a bit to see how the scriptures are interperte their. No one church or faith is 100% correct in how they understand the scriptures. I sit under the teachings of one denomination, but I am not exclusive to that denominations teachings. I will listen to any preacher that teaches the word of God and not some far out theology from man. Sitting under one theology for too long can brain wash a person into believing that that is the only way and that all others are false.

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In your past response you seemed to indicate that you were going to “hang-up” (my words, not yours). I’m glad you didn’t.

It is important to understand that there can only be one truth, one absolute truth in God. For me, to hold a synthesized faith based on my own will, my own desire is liberal theology. The result is an autonomous pre-determined faith based on my subjective will, not the will of God. Instead, I find inductive reasoning that weigh actions on traditional Catholic morals to be instructive and informative as well as a grace from God. Therefore, what may seem to you to be unyielding intolerance for other views is in fact orthodoxy in faith. We do know that “disorder in the intellect begets disorder in the heart, and vice-versa,” the converse will be rewarded in faith.

To know truth is to know God. Ultimately, logic leads to the Scriptural evidence that the Catholic Church was commissioned by Christ, God's Kingdom; right-reasoning requires conformity to it’s authority to teach. Therefore, once again what appears to you as rigidness is in fact a search for truth within the halls of God’s Kingdom. (see link)

In the case of the Darby's rapture theories I’m not constrained, except that the assertion must be in harmony with Scripture and Apostolic Tradition. In so doing I’ve come to the conclusion (without the benefit of "brainwashing") that Darby is wrong.

Could your assertion of intolerance be because I’m Catholic and can’t come to that conclusion without being “brainwashed”? Or is it that, at least in this small issue, you fear that a Catholic may be right? Is it the Catholic Church you dislike or is it my idea that Darby’s theories can’t be right that you dislike? I’m still willing to debate my position with you and the others and I can assure you my responses will be orthodox.

My question to you is why would anyone pollute the intellect with “far out theology from man” and yet be unwilling to listen to Catholic truth? Are you really looking for truth or just some feel-good-fairy-tale-so-you-can-sleep-at-night sort of thing?

JoeT

Didn't drop off. I just find it pointless to discuss this further at this time. Since we have different opinions of what the word of God says. You believe that you are right and so do I. We will one day in the not to distant future see which is correct.

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Originally Posted by 450donn

Didn't drop off. I just find it pointless to discuss this further at this time. Since we have different opinions of what the word of God says. You believe that you are right and so do I. We will one day in the not to distant future see which is correct.

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So you know the time and place? How do you know it will be "the not to distant future?" That's what they said in Paul's day.

JoeT

We will all know the truth some day.
Some sooner than others.
But I believe that those who wait for the last day of this age have a long wait of at least 100 years.
Fred

So, you are insisting on dragging me into this again.
If you were to listen to any of the well known bible scholars today they almost to a person believe that we are in the end times. Almost all of the propheticies have been fulfilled. Especially the one concerning Isreal becoming a nation in a day. Most from reading and studying the scriptures believe that the generation that saw Isreal's rebirth as a nation will not pass from this earth before the return of Christ.
Again, you can choose to believe or not believe, that is your right as a free thinking individual. Personally I and most evangelical Christians do believe this.
The restraining force on the earth right now against the works of satan is the Church. When the church is taken away from the earth, that will be the time that satan will gain total control of the earth for his rein od descruction as foretold in Revelations.
Sorry, this is the end of the discission for me.